Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 07, 2012 09:44PM
Another one?

Tata Motors of India thinks this will be the next BIG thing. What will the Oil Companies do to stop it? It is an auto engine that runs on air. That's right; air not gas or diesel or electric but just the air around us.
Tata Motors of India has scheduled the Air Car to hit Indian streets by August 2012

The Air Car, developed by ex-Formula One engineer Guy N. For Luxembourg-based MDI, uses compressed air to push its engine's pistons and make the car go.

The Air Car, called the "Mini CAT" could cost around 365,757 rupees in India or $8,177 US.

The Mini CAT which is a simple, light urban car, with a tubular chassis, a body of fiberglass that is glued not welded and powered by compressed air. A Microprocessor is used to control all electrical functions of the car. One tiny radio transmitter sends instructions to the lights, turn signals and every other electrical device on the car. Which are not many.

The temperature of the clean air expelled by the exhaust pipe is between 0-15 degrees below zero, which makes it suitable for use by the internal air conditioning system with no need for gases or loss of power.

There are no keys, just an access card which can be read by the car from your pocket. According to the designers, it costs less than 50 rupees per 100 KM, that's about a tenth the cost of a car running on gas. It's mileage is about double that of the most advanced electric car, a factor which makes it a perfect choice for city motorists. The car has a top speed of 105 KM per hour or 60 mph and would have a range of around 300 km or 185 miles between refuels. Refilling the car will take place at adapted gas stations with special air compressors. A fill up will only take two to three minutes and costs approximately 100 rupees and the car will be ready to go another 300 kilometers.

This car can also be filled at home with it's on board compressor. It will take 3-4 hours to refill the tank, but it can be done while you sleep.

Because there is no combustion engine, changing the 1 liter of vegetable oil is only necessary every 50,000 KM or 30,000 miles. Due to its simplicity, there is very little maintenance to be done on this car. This Air Car almost sounds too good to be true. We'll see in August. 2012

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 07, 2012 10:42PM
Same thing that has been posted on the forum about 3 times now. MDI are a bunch of scam artists who since 1996 have had an miracle air car ready for sale next year, always next year.
The target market is technically ignorant investors with the greeds. Reality is a 6 hp engine 7 mile range and costs more per mile that a petrol Smart car
Tata sniffed, smelt the the BS and walked away.
This spam has been doing the rounds since 2010 with the date changing as it circulates. The Minicat is dead. MDi is now asking people to pony up for the Air Pod.
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 08, 2012 01:43AM
it is hard for me to imagine a car going very far on even a very high pressure can of air. Because there's nothing there to serve as storage. At least with steam you have water, which could be compared to a battery for storage. and the fuel to energize the water. Do they compress it so far it turns into liquid air? then they might have something of a battery type of energy storage. However I do know that everything viable has been eliminated by big oil, I know a lot about all those free energy inventions, overunity generators, low energy water splitters, and vapor carbs and such, have researched them for many years, most of it is legitimate, I know several of the men who've had em working. Every time someone gets one working and says a word about it in public, they get stomped on HARD! My neighbor got it after he was successful, had a ton truck with 350 V8 getting 70 mpg steady. Death threat made him quit. I know with enough experimenting and the right adjustment I could make any one of several of them work, but have decided to not push it, just go with something simple old fashioned and easy to make work. Maybe later as time allows I can fool with some of the other things. Nobody's going to kill me for using firewood to do the work to grow my food. Or even drive a truck down the road, because firewood power is not a threat to the big money guys. Something that would eliminate liquid fuel use is a big threat.
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 08, 2012 06:11AM

Let's face it, there are no secret over-unity energy producers and there aren't mysterious cabals trying to supress super-efficient motors.

One of the all time favorite stories is the old "My uncle (how come it is never a father or brother, always an uncle?) bought a Cadillac with a V-8 that got 70 miles per gallon but some people from GM took it away and when it came back it only got 15 because they swapped out the carburetor. Sorry, I work for GM Powertrain Engineering and it's obvious how ridiculous that story is. Vehicles are built at factories, prototype and experimental vehicles are assembled at GMR (GM Research) in Warren, MI or at other sites such as the one at which I work....these being located independantly from factories. The process whereby a carb would get from a research building to an assembly line is a nice piece of fantasy itself requiring the carb to somehow be checked out of a security zone in a research facility, travel anywhere from a dozen to thousands of miles to a factory, somehow get taken onto the assembly line and then be swapped out for the production part.. These are BIG companies, they don't put the cars together in a pole barn with a couple guys out back tinkering on new ideas. Developmental cars are either retained for future study or typically destroyed, no one in their right mind would accept the liability risks of passing off prototype components to customers. This doesn't just refer to GM, what I've described is the way the industry works...go to Dearborn to see all the Ford engineering buildings or Auburn Hills to see the Chrysler Tech Center.

The average automotive combustion chamber is above 95% efficient, you can get a bit better efficiency with active controls and electronic fuel injection so as to keep that level of efficiency at various throttle settings, changes to ambient temperature and pressure, variatons in fuel quality and so on, but this is not a massive improvement. Improvements are going to come from more efficient thermodynamic cycles (hence the allure of the diesel), energy regeneration and so on.

DO THE MATH, calculate the Carnot efficiency for a standard IC engine, assume moderate losses and keep the parameters in the range of affordable metallurgy. There is no way that a 350 CID V8 is pushing a truck at 70 mpg. Poppycock. Rubbish. Didn't happen. Sorry. Beyond that, the whole story falls under its own weight, especially when you throw in the silly 'death threat' scenario. Apparently industry maintains an intelligence apparatus the CIA can only dream of, capable of detecting the slightest modification to an engine and intercepting the culprit before he can hit the local TV station. It also supposes all backyard tinkerers are craven cowards who desist from their simple "matter of enough adjusment and experimenting" at the first threat. And it supposes that not one government or police agency on earth will offer protection, not even Sheriff Andy and Deputy Fife. Let's not forget economic realities, any auto manufacturer would pay huge bucks for a simple way to get that kind of mileage and thus eliminate the competition in a single stroke while reaping indecent profits, meeting all projected CAFE standards as far as the eye can see and earning the undying love of their stockholders. Yeah, makes absolutely total sense why no one would want to make those simple adjustments.

I might as well note that I am one of the Phorum moderators, it would have been simple to just make your post disappear, but that would hardly contribute to open and free discussion...so maybe the evil industry insider bit is a bit overblown.....although maybe next time I'll just send in the Black Helicopter Aerial Assault Regiment! grinning smiley

If this came off as personally insulting, I am sorry, that isn't my intent. But I will heap the same scorn on pyramid power, crystal energy, the Deane drive, Bourke engine, Pogue carburetor and any other topic of conversation destined to deflect attention away from real solutions to problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 06:17AM by frustrated.
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 08, 2012 06:52AM
Why is this nonsense even permitted to be on our web site? For God's sake this fraud violates every law of thermodynamics known.
There is another one running around too, only an electric with a generator that recharges the batteries as you drive.
We have enough problems getting a grip on steam, let alone frauds like this one.
Quite frankly, anyone who believes in this idiocy is a fool and as stupid as they come. Insult intended.
This doesn't even deserve the few minutes it would take to give a reasoned reply.
Read it as comic relief. Coming from India doesn't surprise me one bit. And to think that TATA Motors now owns Jaguar, the mind shudders.
Now, about that cold fusion stock I want to get rid of....... .

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 08, 2012 08:37AM
The only one that makes any sense thermodynamical is the external fuel
vaporization. Gasoline has a low heat of vaporization so how much difference can
that one actually make. Would the differance make up for the danger of an
explosion. The thing is, if it improved the thermal output of the fuel by some x%.
That increase would be decreased by the Otto cycle efficiency. So for example if
you improved heat output of the fuel by 1% you would gain less then 0.28% due to the Otto
cycle efficiency. And that's considering you get the full cycle efficiency of the Otto
cycle. What is the heat of combustion of gas compared to it's heat of vaporazation. I
don't know off hand.

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 08, 2012 10:25AM
These things are off topic except for two aspects of them: The first is that any compressed air engine works exactly like a steam engine, which means that it has some valve control to give short cutoff. Compressed air is used in many industrial applications but those motors run at 100% cutoff so that they have high torque and low weight. Early on there was the use of a Stanley engine as a compressed air motor driven by an IC engine running an air compressor up front. The advantage was in the clutch and transmission area, which were very crude at the beginning. Secondly, we, in the steam business, need to keep an eye on the competition: electric batteries, compressed air, Stirling Cycle, cellulosic ethanol, and whatnot, just a little bit because they are the competition and when something really works that will change the attraction of a steam engine. We do not need to exhaust those topics, however, here on the Phorum. There is enough real steam information that needs to be discussed. Thirdly, I suggest that we do not attempt to disabuse those who believe in conspiracies. They got this far in life happily believing and feeling better for that fact and I doubt that anything we say will change whatever it is that gives meaning to life. We all need to feel good about ourselves. That said, all that you need to know is that Art Gardiner says that 80% of the energy put into compressing air is lost, due to heat formation and diffusion, before it is run through an air motor. These things work when electricity is more than 20% cheaper than gasoline, economically, that is. Someone should put in a photo or diagram of that French air engine because it has a very clever variable length connecting rod or some mechanism where the piston has a lot more time in the TDC position than is provided with a normal harmonic motion. This is so there is more time for the air to absorb heat from the atmosphere. Tom Kimmel
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 08, 2012 01:06PM
Raising hell with these obvious frauds should be our business, since dead silence is the output of that other bunch.
Lots of things work as we know; but how well and how efficient also dials into the equation along with what will it cost.
The thermo of this one is beyond contempt, so why be patronizing at all. This is either beyond idiocy or a deliberate stock selling fraud.
We always go off the original subject, seems to be the habit of devoted people with a cross to burn.

If you want to have something to really worry about, go to Google and click on Lithium-air battery. Tons of money going into this because of one thing.
IF it proves out technically, IF it can be produced at a commercial cost and IF it really can show the power density of 11000 kWh/kg vs. 200 for lead acid and 400 for the lithium-ion polymer batter of today, this means a realistic 500 miles per charge and THAT I do worry about.
There are plenty of obstacles to overcome yet; but the potential is sure there as is massive funding. The hot ticket for the venture capital types around here.
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 08, 2012 11:37PM
I'm not into arguing, would rather just be quiet and let everyone be deceived by the system. However I will say a little bit and then shut up. because I don't really care if everyone understands it or not. Most people never will. Massive over unity generators have been built, and they do work, and they DO NOT violate the laws of thermo dynamics, they only appear to violate them to those who don't know how they work. I researched the stuff a long time, Once I began to understand more about energy and where it comes from and what's going on with it, I found that as much as the men of science think they know about energy today, they aren't hardly scratching the surface yet. Yes it's a mind boggling thing at first to see more power coming out than going in. The first response of everyone is going to be "impossible". But there's more going on around us in space than we can see happening. Or detect with our measuring instruments. Magnetic flux is something that men of science and technology think they know a lot about, but they really don't know what it is. And there's something called cold electricity. Because the heavier it get's loaded the colder it gets. Opposite of normal electricity. Those who've been shocked by it get frost bite instead of a burn. Most of the really high power overunity generators are using very high voltage rectified radio frequency fed into a resonance tuned circuit, when they're adjusted just right there appears on the output 1000's of times more cold electricity than the little bit of normal current that powers it. An electrical engineer in recent times got onto it and developed it quite extensively, and then went solid state with it. He said you could run an electric car on a 6V flashlight battery and a TV flyback transformer, and the battery would never run down. Of course the battery was not actually running the car, just serving as catalyst for the flow of energy from space around it, with a little bit fed back to keep the battery up. he said he'd developed a matchbox size generator that would run a car forever on "nothing", and knowing how it works I know he wasn't telling a fable.

One man who worked extensively on the subject stated "there's enough energy in every cubic centimeter of space to create all the matter we can see in the universe" Now that is mind boggling in the extreme. (we saw how much energy is in matter when the atomic bomb was invented) I don't know how true that is as far as concentration of energy, but I do know that all of space around us contains massive quantities of energy that can be unbalanced and turned into unlimited quantities of electrical energy by various means.

We have a problem where almost all of the people who have the technical education to understand the technology are turned off by the overunity concept and refuse to investigate further because they think it's foolishness, and those who are not educated can't comprehend the stuff. It takes a very rare educated person with an open mind to keep looking and studying it even though it looks ridiculous, until an understanding of what's happening is obtained, and then it gets exciting, massive possibilities open up. Depressing to those who make money on other forms of energy. because if let go it would wipe out every other energy source real fast.

But don't worry, it's not a threat to steam power. Because it'll never be developed commercially as long as men are made wealthy from oil being pumped from the ground.

Secondly those elusive vapor carbs were for real, I've seem em run, my neighbor had one running for some time, I've had one running. they're based on well known fuel refining technology within the petroleum industry. (even though the early makers of them didn't realize what kind of chemistry was going on in the device) The early versions worked fine on pure white gas, fuel additives made them clog up quickly. The latest inventor to work on it designed one that would digest gas additives and all and was getting 132 mpg on a jeep cherokee with 6 cy FI engine. and 78 mpg on a car with I think it was a 454 V8 in it. He'd put 100,000 miles on one and was setting up manufacture and distributorship for them when the big guys wiped him out. I thought they'd killed him but later I heard rumor he'd escaped to china. I have all the details on his invention that he gave me a few months before he vanished. Needless to say I won't be making them for sale.

The reason I'm into steam power instead of all this other stuff is just because I love it from early in life, second I see tough times ahead for this world and I'm backing off to minimum and very reliable technology to grow food with 0 outside input. I do know that I can eventually build a tractor that runs on "nothing"; more accurately "apparently nothing" because it is true that nothing can run on nothing. But the technology required to do that is going to take me more time than I want to put into it right now, I need something running on other than liquid fuel real soon. And I know when fuel prices soar I'll be real happy to chuck some more wood in the boiler and keep plowin. I will work on the other stuff down the road sometime if the world doesn't go crazy too quick.

So I'll sign off on the topic and ya'll can believe what ever ya want to, but ya gotta dig deep to get to the real good stuff, and keep an open mind, and don't believe what the "experts" tell you just because they have a degree. I was educated to ask 'why" and "how" of everything. And to think for myself, not just believe what I'm told because of who said it.
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 09, 2012 02:29AM
"Massive over unity generators have been built, and they do work, and they DO NOT violate the laws of thermo dynamics, they only appear to violate them to those who don't know how they work. "

Nope never built and never worked because they totally violate the laws of thermodynamics. If you REALLY want to dig take some papers and learn how to derive the laws from first principles. It's a staggering moment of illumination when you get it.


There ain't no such thing as a free lunch
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 10, 2012 03:53AM
Reuben, you need to study Stephen Hawking's research to understand what you
think you know about energy. It is passable to make massive amounts of energy
from seemingly nothing. However it takes massive amounts of energy to get it
started. Around 80% of our sun's energy output would be required.

It basically involves stretching a quantum worm hole, enlarging it big enough that
atoms can travel through it.

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 13, 2012 01:40PM
Hello Reuben,

Since you say you have all the information used by your acquaintance to build a ultra high GPM IC engine, then the best thing to do is build one to demonstrate your claims concerning this technology. A working, reproducible model will always win the argument. And if you are frightened that you'll be the victim of some conspiracy if you build this fuel system, then I imagine you can send the information to the Club address and give one of the members with the equipment and experience the opportunity to build and test this system. Either way, you need to back up your claims if you expect to be taken seriously. There is no other way to get a fair hearing. Although the background of many of the members makes me trust their opinions in these matters, I wish you well and seriously doubt any member would be long upset if you can prove yourself correct. Empahsis on "prove".

Jim Kenney
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 16, 2012 07:11AM
I have a friend that keeps inventing over-unity stuff. I keep trying to explain it won't work, and that what he thinks is success is just bad measuring techniques. Very intelligent guy, totally self taught, and that's the problem. He's learned what fits with what he wants to believe. Everything else must be wrong, or part of the conspiracy.

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
February 16, 2012 08:19AM
Hi Tom,

Just as a guess, do these bad measuring techniques have anything to do with measuring RMS voltage and calculating wattage based on the resulting values? There ought to be some sort of award for the best (worst?) examples of this every year.

Pressurised Air and fireless steam cars
April 03, 2012 04:47AM

This compressed air nonsense has been around for years - it is simply mathematics: Compressed air is a very bad energy carrier. We have made some years ago a proof of concept for a fireless steam car for special purposes. Taking a lighweight carbon fiber electric car and adding a 1903 stranley engine operating a t Max 10 bvar pressure with 160 liters of water resulted in about 10 km of range. Filling it with pressurised air resulted in 150 meters.

We think, fireless steam vehicles have a market in airport tractors where they have to be able to drive inside and outside hangars, not faster than 15 mph and on a defined area. The advantage is faster charging than electcal and more power than diesel, so in an airport it can replace diesel, electric and hybrid traction - with significantly lower energy costs.

To prove that, whe got on loan from a Museum the only (to our knowledge) surviving Henschel-Doble truck engine. However there is still some lack of finance - as usual...


Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
April 04, 2012 08:13AM
Hello Andreas

Can you post a picture of the Henschel Doble engine?
A picture was posted in an UK magazine some years ago of a yellow painted engine but it had a propshaft flange on the rear which I think would have made it the engine from the test boat.

Interesting concept for the aircraft tractors. I had an enquiry for electrical generators powered by wood to recharge electric Taxis. Your concept of fireless vehicles makes more sense.

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
April 05, 2012 02:41AM
Exacty- it is the engine with the prop-shaft - most probably used for a steam launch. The Museum had no clue what it is about. And we will have to return it to another musuem in two years.

I can send you a presentation - where should I send it?

For Frankfurt airport we have looked into all kinds of alternative fuels waste wood from freight, waste liquid fuels, gas from waste water cleaning - it does not add up. Either there is alread a meaningful process in place or there is not enough volume. Anyway, producing steam with a gas turbine and the same time electricity (like a combined cycle powerplant) adds up to a combined fuel efficiency for the natural gas of about 50% compared with around 10 if the trucks would be burning natural gas in IC-engines. Also due to the higher efficiency carbon emissions drop significantly. If you think things to the end, sometimes you come to the conclusion that a senseful application of fossile fuel is the best idea. In most climatic model every tree is sold about 3 times - as fuel, construction material, or carbon sink. However, it can do the job only once or maybe twice.

You can also mail me at schwander@bleuwin.ch

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
April 05, 2012 03:25AM
her are the pictures. Dont look at the caption - it is not a differential gear.

open | download - Fotos Dampfmaschine Henschel System Doble.pdf (423.1 KB)
Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
April 06, 2012 05:08AM
Hi Andreas

Thankyou for posting the pictures. Interesting design and confirms my thoughts on it being the boat engine.
Our problem is the high volume of woodwaste leftover from forestry operations, much more than would normally be found in mainland Europe. Local solutions are needed to using this energy resource with the minimum of transportation.
Will email you soon.

Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
April 06, 2012 09:33AM
Hello Brian

We (DLM) have installed a 1950s locomobile for heating and electicity generating purposes in Germany. Look at www.dlm-ag.ch

And have you ever looked at those guys? www.spilling.de - stationary reciprocating steam eninges and steam turbines, purely commercial.

In the medium and long run replacing of expensive diesel fuel with cheap locally produced steam is very attractive. Is there any rail operation near your wood processing plants? We could supply you with fireless locomotives. We can make an offer - also if you need wireless remote control.


Re: Tata Motors Compressed Air car available August 2012
April 06, 2012 05:06PM
Hi Andreas

Spilling is quiite popular here in UK, probably because there is little alternative.
The waste timber is still in the forest, not at a plant. The waste use to be burned or left for a long period to break back into the soil. Niether are suitable solutions for today's enviromentally sensitive management.
Agree steam is a solution for certain applications, especially when the fuel source is cheap or a byproduct. Problem is suitable powerplants for mobile applications such as woodchippers or transportation.

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