Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 21, 2005 07:42PM
What is the best papers, notes or books that you use or have used in designing steam engines? Is there any material in the SACA storeroom that is recommended for a novice wanting to design a steam engine? Possibly something that covers information ranging from the material one should use in the various parts to figuring wall thickness and port areas.

john f.
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 21, 2005 11:56PM
The book I found helpful along this line (though I have yet to finish the engine) is a book appropriately titled “Steam Engine Design”. It is a ‘Lindsay Publications’ reprint of a 1896 book. Lindsay books are fairly cheap too. lots of luck.

John Féhn
Budapest
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 03:58AM
It’s a good book but based more on large stationary engines. Study Doble, Besler, White, Stanley and Herreshoff, for building lighter high-speed engines.
Rolly
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 04:05AM
Other books you may want to look at are, Experimental Flash steam, by J.H. Benson & A.A. Rayman also Model Stationary and Marine steam engines by K.N. Harris.
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 11:05AM
Rolly,
I had purchased the Lindsay book long ago and had already learned of its uselessness. Using the formula in the book for determining wall thickness for a 3” bore at 1500psi equates to a ridiculous 1.3 inches. I still keep the book just in case there is ever an extended power outage some winter and I need an alternate heat source. Actually this book does serve as an example of what I am looking for but with modern formulas that incorporate the advancements in metallurgy, stronger irons and higher grade bolts of today.
An example of something I struggle through is determining the size, depth and spacing of the head bolts for a given cylinder bore, working pressure and material thickness of the head assembly. Will the books you recommended help me through problems like these?
Kevin

Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 11:26AM
An example of something I struggle through is determining the size, depth and spacing of the head bolts for a given cylinder bore, working pressure and material thickness of the head assembly.

Yes Model Stationary and Marine steam engines by K.N. Harris will be some help hear.
You may also want a copy of Machinery Handbook, Industrial Press. It’s a reference book for Mechanical Engineer, Toolmakers & Machinist. My twentieth edition has a good section on metals alloys and their use.
There is a little bit of whats needed in each book.
Rolly
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 12:37PM
The steam engine design book by Lindsay has the math needed for Cylinder head and valve chest bolts. See art 24. Just apply the right figures of the material available today.
Disregard the min of ¾ inch bolts and apply the tensile stress of the material you want to use. Go to the machinery handbook. I once tested a ¼ inch bolt that took 7200 Lb to pull the head off.
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 01:40PM
Rolly,
In reference to the Machinery’s Handbook is there any reason that I should choose a newer edition over an older edition? A quick search revealed a 22nd edition (early 80's) price of around $30 and a $70 price tag for a 26th edition (late 90's I think).
Kevin
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 02:29PM
Machinery’s Handbook

I really don’t know, but I would suspect a newer version is more up to date on newer material and data.

Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 22, 2005 03:11PM
Almost any edition of the "Machinery's Handbook" is an essential adddition to a workshop - from zero to the 22nd is a quantam leap - the rest just a step - you will soon discover why it is considered the "Bible" of metalworking shops.

Frank

Peter Brow
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 23, 2005 12:24AM
The standard engineering texts are Machinery's Handbook (14th Ed for me), Mark's Handbook (mine is the 4th ed), and Kent (11th edition, full citation in my post today on the "crossheads" thread). For the amateur steamerite, older engineering texts are often much more understandable and useful than new ones. The latest Marks at tres chic Borders Books got me absolutely bewildered and gagging on my Triple Latte Decaf Mochaccino Foo-Foo.

For an "Engineering For Idiots" intro to the basics, the old ICS texts are great (I love Vol 1 of "An Elementary Treatise on Electric Power and Lighting -- Arithmetic, Mensuration, and Mechanics", (Scranton, Pennsylvania: The Colliery Engineer Co, 1897, 1st Edition) whew it's ancient and contains nothing about electricity, but lots of simple & ultra-useful Old Math formulas for this "New Math" brainwash victim). San Diego was a WW2/Cold War aircraft-building hotbed, and the used bookstores here are loaded with Grey Flannel Suit Era aircraft engineering books that are full of useful info (not to mention the occasional bizarre storage shed built with surplus wing-strut duralumin I-beams, as on one of my properties). The Rust Belt probably has old bookstores loaded with even neater stuff. Any old industrial area should be a gold mine of engineering books, used machine tools too. The professional's trash is the amateur's treasure. Recycling Furthers!

So get out of the Mad Scientist Lab and physically browse your local old-used-book stores, prices are often much lower than in the highly competitive environment of the online booksellers. You may be amazed at what you find. I got all of my old books, engineering and otherwise, at such local establishments. I have to laugh at some of the book prices on the internet -- Mr. Cheapskate/Mad Scientist here has gotten the same gems, including the Keenan-Keyes Steam Tables (an absolute must for serious steamophiles), for a fraction of their internet prices.

Old bookshops also sometimes have a dim, dusty, cluttered Olde Curiousity Shoppe atmosphere which will make one feel better about one's own ancient junk-clogged workshop and the visitors who browse it for amusement/amazement purposes and offer the occasional untoward comment ("you have a _lot_ of $#!+" was one of my favorites, for sheer understated pithiness). Unintentional museum curators unite!

Peter
David K. Nergaard
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 23, 2005 05:05AM
May I suggest you read my "Homework" page in the Northeast chapter pages of this site?
Garry Hunsaker
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
January 23, 2005 07:24AM
Mr. Nergaard’s homework page is a ‘must’ read.
Garry
[www.steamautomobile.com]
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
February 04, 2005 06:58PM
Rolly,
Got the 25th edition and the other book is on the way. Is there a general consensus on how much of a safety factor should be built into a steam engine?
Kevin
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
February 05, 2005 12:29PM
Kevin
I don’t really know what would be a standard with today’s material. I have been told I over build everything. I just can’t stand doing thing twice. The ASME code was changed a couple of years ago, it reduced the safety factor from four to three point five. Maybe that’s a starting place to design from on your engines. I have gone five to eight times but when it looks ridicules I make some changes.
I hope you enjoy the books you bought.
The other night I took a book from my collection, Boiler operators Guide by Harry M, Spring Jr. It has most of the math required to calculate a boiler to the ASME code. Having done this for my marine boiler I was reviewing the calculation for Ligament spacing. This safety percentage always has given me problems.
Rolly
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
February 06, 2005 09:52AM
Thanks for your help Rolly, I'll see how far I get.
Kevin
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
December 19, 2008 06:47PM
All other things being equal, I figured this would be a good reference for those just starting out.

Best


Jeremy

Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
December 22, 2008 06:16AM
Among the hundreds of books I have collected since I started learning about steam, I find Tubal Cain's Model Engineers Handbook a great source of information. I have the 3rd edition and it is a great reference book for engineering information.

ISBN 1854861344

Peter Heid
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
August 08, 2009 05:04PM
I just recently acquired the book "Experimental Flash Steam" by J. H. Benson and A. A. Rayman. Great book!

ISBN # 1 85761 1160

Best

Jeremy


Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
August 08, 2009 06:52PM
Another curiously useful little reference is the "Chemical Resistance Chart For Various Pump Materials" in the back of the Grainger catalog. This lists a bunch of pump, tube, etc materials and rates their reactivity to a large number of commonly pumped/handled liquids, including many oils and fuels, and water. Ratings are "A" through "D". An "A" rating is "No effect - acceptable"; a "D" rating is "Severe Effect - not recommended".

Peter
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
August 08, 2009 07:58PM
Peter B,

Im at a loss as to the point that your making, are you working with liquid sodium or something?

Best


Jeremy
TH
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
August 08, 2009 11:19PM
Peter,

Your comments about old books reminded me of my grandfather. My Mom's Dad dropped out after eighth grade, a common thing a hundred years ago, and got a job working for Glenn Curtis. Yeah, THAT Glenn Curtis. He ended up working on the Liberty Engine project for WW I. He was a constant reader of those International Correspondence School books. He must have gotten a lot out of them, since at 65 he retired from Shure Brothers as an electrical engineer designer for microphones and stereo cartridges, and was the only full member in the history of the Illinois Society of Professional Engineers that never attended college. Then he went to Honeywell to work on their LED project. And he did this while raising five children during the Depression and WW 2. Quite a guy.

There's a lot in those old books if you look.

I have some of his books. The amount of practical information is amazing. Boiler design, steam engines, turbines, generators, and that's in just one book! Thirties, Forties and Fifties high tech. His ASM Handbook for 1938 has pride of place on my office reference shelf.

Tom
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
August 09, 2009 06:36AM
Hi Jeremy,

Not commenting on any particular system, just noting that even plain water and common fuels and oils can eat some materials. Worth checking materials compatibility charts when selecting hoses, gaskets, seals, etc..

Hi Tom,

Yep, you can't beat those old books with a bat. Well, you can, but the bindings break and the pages fly all over, and who wants that. I like your grandfather's success story. We need more of those nowadays. Whoops, time to quit before I hop on the ole soapbox.

Peter
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
September 09, 2009 02:48AM
The materials compatibility chart in the latest (2009-2010) Grainger catalog is pp 3416-3421.

Peter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2009 05:35AM by Peter Brow.
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
September 09, 2009 05:49PM
Hi Peter B,

I havent got my copy yet of that granger catalog, but will be checking those pages when I do. (you forgot the catalog #)

I looked around the net a little today, on there site, could not find the reference page, for a link.

Here's something thats alittle off-topic(not really) but explains the liquid sodium a little.

[www.ias.ac.in]

Quote
pdf-link
The system is designed to be leak-tight with provision of
inert argon blanket/cover gas to cover free sodium surfaces
in components in order to avoid any ingress of air
and to accommodate sodium volume changes with temperature.
Austenitic stainless steels of type AISI 304/316
grade are usually preferred as construction materials due
to their good corrosion resistance and high temperature
strength.

Also, I was wondering how many have Mark's on there book shelf as a reference. I do not have this but some have recomended it to me, as a good reference. I use three other books to cover about everything that's in Marks, thinking of getting a copy.

[www.amazon.com]


Best


Jeremy
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
September 10, 2009 06:29AM
Hi Jeremy,

Catalog #400. Interesting on liquid sodium! Bit exotic for me. 4th Edition Marks on my bookshelf, 1941. Chapter 7 of Kent, 11th edition (1936) is better on reciprocating steam engines. 14th Edition Machinery's Handbook, getting more and more use as the build approaches. Currently blueprinting/shop-drawing zillions of tiny details, good progress with simplifications & cheapifications all around. KISP.

Peter
Re: Your Favorite Steam Engineering Resources
September 10, 2009 06:46AM
Jeremy
If this link does not open to the PDF pages do a search for PDF pages on the Grainger site.

[www.grainger.com]
Attachments:
open | download - catalogPDF page 3416.pdf (31.1 KB)
open | download - catalogPDF page 3417.pdf (29 KB)
open | download - catalogPDF page 3418.pdf (31 KB)
open | download - catalogPDF page 3419.pdf (27.5 KB)
open | download - catalogPDF page 3420.pdf (30.4 KB)
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

All files from this thread

File Name File Size   Posted by Date  
080809r.jpg 57 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 08/08/2009 Read message
catalogPDF page 3416.pdf 31.1 KB open | download Rolly 09/10/2009 Read message
catalogPDF page 3417.pdf 29 KB open | download Rolly 09/10/2009 Read message
catalogPDF page 3419.pdf 27.5 KB open | download Rolly 09/10/2009 Read message
catalogPDF page 3420.pdf 30.4 KB open | download Rolly 09/10/2009 Read message