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Re: cyclone engine December 12, 2006 01:53PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
Hi Harry and Bill.
Acetone isn't a very good fuel. But in small amounts it allows water soluable fuels like isopropyl and methanal to mix with oil base fuels. Doesn't take but a drop or so per 5 gal mix.
There are many diferent O2 sensers. Automotive types are designed for gasoline. If you wont to speend the money $300+ for an O2 senser you cen find one that works with most anything.
Automotive O2 sensers also have to be up to temperature to work corectly. Some have heaters. I have wondered what would be best for a boiler. An on/off controle I am sure would require a heated type with a temperature sensor. But with a continuasly variable firng rate, I wonder if one could use a cheaper non heated type.
Andy
Acetone isn't a very good fuel. But in small amounts it allows water soluable fuels like isopropyl and methanal to mix with oil base fuels. Doesn't take but a drop or so per 5 gal mix.
There are many diferent O2 sensers. Automotive types are designed for gasoline. If you wont to speend the money $300+ for an O2 senser you cen find one that works with most anything.
Automotive O2 sensers also have to be up to temperature to work corectly. Some have heaters. I have wondered what would be best for a boiler. An on/off controle I am sure would require a heated type with a temperature sensor. But with a continuasly variable firng rate, I wonder if one could use a cheaper non heated type.
Andy
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Re: cyclone engine December 13, 2006 12:10PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine February 12, 2007 12:20AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1 |
Hello Harry, I'm a new member to this forum. I've read everything on your website regarding the cyclone engine. I
find it impressive. However, I have a few questions to help me understand better the operation of the cyclone engine:
1) How does your engine accomplish full expansion using 3200psi? - I see no mention of any compounding. Or is it, as in an IC engine, simply the expansion ('explosion'?) of a tiny burst of high pressure steam (well, maybe an injection of super-critical water) controlled by a throttle?
2) Is it a fact that all the condensation of the exhausted steam occurs within a condenser (be it a rotating one) contained within the confines of the small body of the engine?
3) I assume the engine is a 'uniflow' design, with power only on the 'down stroke' (or is it the 'upstroke')?
4) I am assuming that the blower and fuel feed pump are run by auxiliary electric motors. Am I right?
I think I can understand the operation of your engine better if I consider it as a variation on the 2-stroke diesel, with a super-critical fluid being injected into the cylinder at top dead centre (or thereabouts) instead of fuel. Of course, there should be no need for compression on the return stroke. The heat regeneration, exhaust condensation, fuel pump and air blower would be additions not found in the diesel - or at least not in the same form.
Of course, if any of the information is proprietary, I apologise for asking.
Bill W
find it impressive. However, I have a few questions to help me understand better the operation of the cyclone engine:
1) How does your engine accomplish full expansion using 3200psi? - I see no mention of any compounding. Or is it, as in an IC engine, simply the expansion ('explosion'?) of a tiny burst of high pressure steam (well, maybe an injection of super-critical water) controlled by a throttle?
2) Is it a fact that all the condensation of the exhausted steam occurs within a condenser (be it a rotating one) contained within the confines of the small body of the engine?
3) I assume the engine is a 'uniflow' design, with power only on the 'down stroke' (or is it the 'upstroke')?
4) I am assuming that the blower and fuel feed pump are run by auxiliary electric motors. Am I right?
I think I can understand the operation of your engine better if I consider it as a variation on the 2-stroke diesel, with a super-critical fluid being injected into the cylinder at top dead centre (or thereabouts) instead of fuel. Of course, there should be no need for compression on the return stroke. The heat regeneration, exhaust condensation, fuel pump and air blower would be additions not found in the diesel - or at least not in the same form.
Of course, if any of the information is proprietary, I apologise for asking.
Bill W
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Re: cyclone engine February 13, 2007 09:49AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
HI Bill W,
I will try to answer most questions as about a dozen patents are in place.we some times refer to the engine as a ranken/diesel/carnot engine to make it easer to understand. It is a two stroke engine with uniflow exaust.
at low speed it has a compression tube that allowes the residule compression to be readmited to the combustion chamber as a reheat. at this point there is a retarded valve lift with a long duration so as to have admission overlap the admission of the next cylinder. this allows a very high starting touque and the compression is not a loss as it is reheated.(rankin) It does not have a throttle valve but the valve lift is the throttle. As the RPM is increased the cam advances the valve opening and the duration of this is shortened and the compression incresases, decreasing the clearance volume.(diesel) The condencer is a series of flat plates,they donot rotate,where air is forced around the outside and into another heat exchanger then to the combustion chamber that burns fuel in a centrifuge then then goes through the flat coil heat exchanger then exits throuht the center. this gas then heats the outer air heat exchangers. The water from the feed pump, drawing from the condencer pan, pumps to a heat exchanger coil around each cylinders ports where this goes into the center of the heat exchanger.(carnot)
Harry
I will try to answer most questions as about a dozen patents are in place.we some times refer to the engine as a ranken/diesel/carnot engine to make it easer to understand. It is a two stroke engine with uniflow exaust.
at low speed it has a compression tube that allowes the residule compression to be readmited to the combustion chamber as a reheat. at this point there is a retarded valve lift with a long duration so as to have admission overlap the admission of the next cylinder. this allows a very high starting touque and the compression is not a loss as it is reheated.(rankin) It does not have a throttle valve but the valve lift is the throttle. As the RPM is increased the cam advances the valve opening and the duration of this is shortened and the compression incresases, decreasing the clearance volume.(diesel) The condencer is a series of flat plates,they donot rotate,where air is forced around the outside and into another heat exchanger then to the combustion chamber that burns fuel in a centrifuge then then goes through the flat coil heat exchanger then exits throuht the center. this gas then heats the outer air heat exchangers. The water from the feed pump, drawing from the condencer pan, pumps to a heat exchanger coil around each cylinders ports where this goes into the center of the heat exchanger.(carnot)
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine February 13, 2007 04:04PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine February 22, 2007 09:29AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
Hi Harry.
What experance have you had with stainless. Previously you said that you tried 304 and 316 types and saw little differance.
Have you tried any higher temp alloys.
I noticed a problem with 304 and 304H operatoring in the 425-860C range. Notice aqueous corrosion resistance.
Good oxidation resistance in intermittent service to 870°C and in continuous service to 925°C. Continuous use of 304 in the 425-860°C range is not recommended if subsequent aqueous corrosion resistance is important. Grade 304L is more resistant to carbide precipitation and can be heated into the above temperature range.
Grade 304H has higher strength at elevated temperatures so is often used for structural and pressure-containing applications at temperatures above about 500°C and up to about 800°C. 304H will become sensitised in the temperature range of 425-860°C; this is not a problem for high temperature applications, but will result in reduced aqueous corrosion resistance.
Have you used types 321 or 347. They higher stringth then 304 or 316.
Andy
What experance have you had with stainless. Previously you said that you tried 304 and 316 types and saw little differance.
Have you tried any higher temp alloys.
I noticed a problem with 304 and 304H operatoring in the 425-860C range. Notice aqueous corrosion resistance.
Good oxidation resistance in intermittent service to 870°C and in continuous service to 925°C. Continuous use of 304 in the 425-860°C range is not recommended if subsequent aqueous corrosion resistance is important. Grade 304L is more resistant to carbide precipitation and can be heated into the above temperature range.
Grade 304H has higher strength at elevated temperatures so is often used for structural and pressure-containing applications at temperatures above about 500°C and up to about 800°C. 304H will become sensitised in the temperature range of 425-860°C; this is not a problem for high temperature applications, but will result in reduced aqueous corrosion resistance.
Have you used types 321 or 347. They higher stringth then 304 or 316.
Andy
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Re: cyclone engine February 22, 2007 12:56PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Andy.
Water and alloys play a large roll in the system. Don't use use distilled water from your local grocery store as it containes ozone, bad mistake. The only thing we use is de-ionized water. It is the only way to operate at supercritical. Early SC boilers with small tubes would fail as they would plug with a salt deposit and burn out. Even the atomic subs use de-ionized water. of course you have to have a total closed loop system, donot fill up at the local horse trough. With this we have had no problems. We could write a book on this alone.
Harry
Water and alloys play a large roll in the system. Don't use use distilled water from your local grocery store as it containes ozone, bad mistake. The only thing we use is de-ionized water. It is the only way to operate at supercritical. Early SC boilers with small tubes would fail as they would plug with a salt deposit and burn out. Even the atomic subs use de-ionized water. of course you have to have a total closed loop system, donot fill up at the local horse trough. With this we have had no problems. We could write a book on this alone.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine February 22, 2007 04:47PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Hi all,
Ive gotten excellent results at supercritical with 316L using distilled water. Any supercritical application is going to be super-sensitive to dissolved solids, Ive never seen the pitting. I always heat-transfer to the 316L with silver solder, this saturates the 316L with heat real nicely. The bond(see-beck junction) of the dissimilar metals causes a corrisive anode protection(like protective zinc's on an outboard motor) , that causes the silver to oxidize on contact with the fire. Lately my heat exchanger's have been copper-silver solder-copper. But im not running at supercritical conditions anymore (lately).
Jeremy
Ive gotten excellent results at supercritical with 316L using distilled water. Any supercritical application is going to be super-sensitive to dissolved solids, Ive never seen the pitting. I always heat-transfer to the 316L with silver solder, this saturates the 316L with heat real nicely. The bond(see-beck junction) of the dissimilar metals causes a corrisive anode protection(like protective zinc's on an outboard motor) , that causes the silver to oxidize on contact with the fire. Lately my heat exchanger's have been copper-silver solder-copper. But im not running at supercritical conditions anymore (lately).
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine February 23, 2007 05:28PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
For what its worth,
I use a silver redox process on my stainless heatexchangers, after there cleaned and pickled. Its alot more practical than coating with silver solder. Leaves an ultra thin coating of 99.9% chemically pure ag. Discussing heatexchanger weight/thickness with Harry on the phone before, he made some good points with btu battery effect with the thicker assemblies. I agree. Its like keeping a heavy flywheel at speed. I know Harry has made some great strides with respect to composites and such with his complete engine design. Just wanted to touch on possible advantages of surface treatment with respect to the heat exchangers themselves, regardless of the stainless used.
Jeremy
I use a silver redox process on my stainless heatexchangers, after there cleaned and pickled. Its alot more practical than coating with silver solder. Leaves an ultra thin coating of 99.9% chemically pure ag. Discussing heatexchanger weight/thickness with Harry on the phone before, he made some good points with btu battery effect with the thicker assemblies. I agree. Its like keeping a heavy flywheel at speed. I know Harry has made some great strides with respect to composites and such with his complete engine design. Just wanted to touch on possible advantages of surface treatment with respect to the heat exchangers themselves, regardless of the stainless used.
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine February 23, 2007 05:51PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Something more,
On aluminum, I have recently come up with a copper/sapphire coating that I use for battery plates. If you have any aluminum 'heatexchangers' You'd like to experiment with this type of coating let me know Harry(call me). The surface finish is rough/sandblasted and flat-black in color. Adhesion is excellent thru thermal-shock. I can provide a sample that you can test of 6063 or 4043 and 5356.
Jeremy
On aluminum, I have recently come up with a copper/sapphire coating that I use for battery plates. If you have any aluminum 'heatexchangers' You'd like to experiment with this type of coating let me know Harry(call me). The surface finish is rough/sandblasted and flat-black in color. Adhesion is excellent thru thermal-shock. I can provide a sample that you can test of 6063 or 4043 and 5356.
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine February 24, 2007 10:59AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine March 12, 2007 10:27AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Cyclone Update
There has been a lot of intensive work on pumps and fuel injecters
A great deal of progress as has been made as we now can pump 190f water at 4000psi at 7000 rpm and it was not easy.
This morning we were able to despence solid fuel through our fuel injector. Coal or wood flower about the same consistancy talcoum powder. As with all the liquid fuels, even the heavy ones, and the powdered fuels, they are more of a gas cloud. The engine is the easy part it is all of the other things that are tough.
Harry
There has been a lot of intensive work on pumps and fuel injecters
A great deal of progress as has been made as we now can pump 190f water at 4000psi at 7000 rpm and it was not easy.
This morning we were able to despence solid fuel through our fuel injector. Coal or wood flower about the same consistancy talcoum powder. As with all the liquid fuels, even the heavy ones, and the powdered fuels, they are more of a gas cloud. The engine is the easy part it is all of the other things that are tough.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine March 12, 2007 12:30PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine March 12, 2007 01:37PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill,
The fuel is dry using a switch over to go from gas to liquid to solid powdered fuelin one injector. We are very pleased about the preliminarys. Every thing is a challange. We have been over two years in developement and the first two cylinder engine was run in four mounths from start. Again the engine is the easy part.
Harry
The fuel is dry using a switch over to go from gas to liquid to solid powdered fuelin one injector. We are very pleased about the preliminarys. Every thing is a challange. We have been over two years in developement and the first two cylinder engine was run in four mounths from start. Again the engine is the easy part.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine March 12, 2007 02:58PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 18, 2007 06:30PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 14 |
Harry, you hav no idea of me or my background so let us begin by informing you that I am 70 and a retired Pan Am Captain who is a successful inventor with enginering contacts. I have zero fiscal interest in what I am posting here for you as my patented technologies are in the marine antifouling art field; however, I had ongoing technical discussions with MagnaPlate Corp. of New Jersey as my closest friend was related to Doc Covino, the late founder. Doc and his company have the best expertise in the nation for coating materials to resist high temperatures and corrosion as proven by their applicagtions used by NSA, Boeing and all the big names. If you have a corrosion problem, wear problem or a related problem with say bearings, Doc's comapny is the one place to go for true cuting edge expertise.
My fondness for Live Steam ( ahem ) goes back to the "Lucky Super Seven" days and as an affectionado, I wish you much successes.
Cordially, Graham C. Andoe / Overbore
My fondness for Live Steam ( ahem ) goes back to the "Lucky Super Seven" days and as an affectionado, I wish you much successes.
Cordially, Graham C. Andoe / Overbore
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Re: cyclone engine April 23, 2007 12:25PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 25, 2007 03:29PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Friends,
We had a great show in Detroit, Here are some pics of the weedeater and the lawnmower. will show pics of the show when I get them.
Harry
We had a great show in Detroit, Here are some pics of the weedeater and the lawnmower. will show pics of the show when I get them.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 25, 2007 08:42PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 26, 2007 07:07AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 14 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 26, 2007 12:36PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill
Yes they are real quiet....they are mockups However they are scalled down versions of the 2 cyl generator motor. they are designed to run on propane. No gas and oil to fool around with. buy it at K Mart, plug it in, turn it on, touch the igniter button wait 10sec and pull the rip coard. Gas engines are not leagal in Calf shortly.
Thanks Graham will call
Harry
Yes they are real quiet....they are mockups However they are scalled down versions of the 2 cyl generator motor. they are designed to run on propane. No gas and oil to fool around with. buy it at K Mart, plug it in, turn it on, touch the igniter button wait 10sec and pull the rip coard. Gas engines are not leagal in Calf shortly.
Thanks Graham will call
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 26, 2007 01:34PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
Hi Harry,
What I sincerely hope and pray for is that your quiet little engines will be manditory in those leaf blowers. The smoke and noise from those things is way over the top.
Any advantages to a three cylinder configuration for the smaller to mid range engines?
Best Regards ------ Bill G.
What I sincerely hope and pray for is that your quiet little engines will be manditory in those leaf blowers. The smoke and noise from those things is way over the top.
Any advantages to a three cylinder configuration for the smaller to mid range engines?
Best Regards ------ Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine April 26, 2007 02:23PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 14 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 26, 2007 04:07PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill,
I personaly like the 6cyl only it cost more to produce. We have a small 6cyl design for the millitary. I t is a small compact unit to fit in the Abrams, Bradley, and the Stryker. It is a small common 10kw generator to fit in a 12"x12"x17" space. Of course every thing is a compromise.
We will be on Speed television about the show in detroit please watch
Sunday, April 29 @ 7am.EST
Wed May 2 @ 10:30 am EST
Thanks again Graham
Harry
I personaly like the 6cyl only it cost more to produce. We have a small 6cyl design for the millitary. I t is a small compact unit to fit in the Abrams, Bradley, and the Stryker. It is a small common 10kw generator to fit in a 12"x12"x17" space. Of course every thing is a compromise.
We will be on Speed television about the show in detroit please watch
Sunday, April 29 @ 7am.EST
Wed May 2 @ 10:30 am EST
Thanks again Graham
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 27, 2007 06:21PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Hi Harry,
Im cururious about something, on your pic PDR_1247.JPG
Is that clear white tube with cap and 2 alu struts in the front, some sort of water level indicator?
If so, are you employing some sort of 100% water recovery with the cyclone engine, thru its internal condencer?
MAN, that would probably would have the smallest IR footprint of any engine system I've ever seen.
Neat...
Jeremy
Im cururious about something, on your pic PDR_1247.JPG
Is that clear white tube with cap and 2 alu struts in the front, some sort of water level indicator?
If so, are you employing some sort of 100% water recovery with the cyclone engine, thru its internal condencer?
MAN, that would probably would have the smallest IR footprint of any engine system I've ever seen.
Neat...
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine April 27, 2007 09:33PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 14 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 28, 2007 11:51AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Jeremy,
Yes that is a water level gauge it is teflon tubing and it is a total closed loop system. The weed eater has a small built in water tank so as the engine can work in the operating position. These engines donot have all the heat regeneration of the larger engines because of the economies of scale. Of course these are non operational engines however there are built to an operational design. Propane was used to make it clean as well as very simple.
Harry
Yes that is a water level gauge it is teflon tubing and it is a total closed loop system. The weed eater has a small built in water tank so as the engine can work in the operating position. These engines donot have all the heat regeneration of the larger engines because of the economies of scale. Of course these are non operational engines however there are built to an operational design. Propane was used to make it clean as well as very simple.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 29, 2007 01:59PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
sorry Guys
We were told that the interview was to be shown today I guess the pannel descussion with the Canadian auto union pres ran over... oh mum. They showed a small part of the show exibiters, however we were still the busiest booth. We will try to get a copy of the interview and run it on the web site.
Harry
We were told that the interview was to be shown today I guess the pannel descussion with the Canadian auto union pres ran over... oh mum. They showed a small part of the show exibiters, however we were still the busiest booth. We will try to get a copy of the interview and run it on the web site.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 30, 2007 05:16PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 30, 2007 06:20PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 14 |
Harry,
I have need for a small propulsion system, possibly propane fuled, that will power a prototype pair of small military crawlers that will carry only about 165# and move at a normal walking pace, about 4mph. The crawlers could be electric powered---and will climb stairs.
I know you just have "dozens on the shelf" but if your experimental developments have produced a technical thread that could be developed into some working concepts I would be glad to work with you under a Non Disclosure Agreement or Gentlemen's Agreement- your choice. PLease e-mail me and we will discuss further. Cordially, Graham
I have need for a small propulsion system, possibly propane fuled, that will power a prototype pair of small military crawlers that will carry only about 165# and move at a normal walking pace, about 4mph. The crawlers could be electric powered---and will climb stairs.
I know you just have "dozens on the shelf" but if your experimental developments have produced a technical thread that could be developed into some working concepts I would be glad to work with you under a Non Disclosure Agreement or Gentlemen's Agreement- your choice. PLease e-mail me and we will discuss further. Cordially, Graham
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