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Re: cyclone engine June 25, 2005 03:02AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Bill,
A few bits of info from the data junkyard. Peter Barrett injects (30W ND motor) oil into his poppet valve guides to guarantee lube. He meters-in a little excess, some goes around valve stems to cyls and lubes pistons. Without oil injection, ring blowby from full-time positive pressure in cyls "steam cleaned" crankcase splash oil off cyl walls (even w/o scraper rings) and blew his engines in under 1000 mi.. He reported stem scoring problems with titanium valves, but now uses stainless w/no trouble. He runs like 1000°F steam, hi expansion, counterflow. Gets ~19mpg on the road, ~same as any peppy gas engine in a VW-based kit sports car (that's experience, not EPA "guesstimates"
.
So valve stem point lube is on the road, & could be carefully metered to eliminate excess. Not easy, but with enough R&D work you can use oil while keeping it out of the working fluid, just look at any successful 4-stroke IC engine. When there's oil in that working fluid, you know!
Graham Baker built workhorse steam engines with teflon tape stuffing boxes on the poppet valve stems. Long glands, compressed by the valve springs. He claimed they needed no special lube and lasted a long time, but I think he uses oily steam. Don't know if his inlet stems were constantly under (~600°F) inlet steam, but I seem to recall not. Side valves (L-head) with the inlet poppet stems in the expansion volume as I recall. Karl Peterson's website has (or at least had) some pages, pix and text, on the G. Baker engines, good ideas there for nearly any type of engine. There's a link to Karl's site at [www.geocities.com]
Dry lube injection, don't know. Might be worth a try. Maybe in a 1-cyl test engine so if it goes kerflooey, big defloculating deal. Speaking of graphite lube, at one time Stanley specified light distillate cylinder oil with defloculated graphite. Prob to cut condenser clogging (Barrett sez light 30W ND motor oil goes right thru his surface condenser, no buildup). Some said Stanley's black oil worked well for years, others reported plugged winkers etc.. One Stanley long-timer said this "keroseney black stuff" had less drag than the "locomotive molasses" now used, scale/rustproofed the system, wouldn't gunk up boiler, and gave better mpg. Nobody knows how it was made; not worth experimenting in the original cars. But for a new experimental (disposeable) engine ...
I've seen reports of people trying graphite rings etc in steam engines, but haven't seen reports of results. Don't know if this tells us something or not. Real-world superheated steam is corrosive and abrasive; engine parts prob shouldn't leave the house without a coat (of oil). Then again, Harry reports logging plenty of runtime with no oil, pretty amazing, so who knows. Special mention of the new Coates Rotary Valve system (Google it) for IC engines. Hi-tech modern materials (incl technical ceramics), hi-fpm sliding/rotating/sealing components in thermal-cycling oxidizing hi-temp environment with zero lube, and long runtime claims.
Peter
A few bits of info from the data junkyard. Peter Barrett injects (30W ND motor) oil into his poppet valve guides to guarantee lube. He meters-in a little excess, some goes around valve stems to cyls and lubes pistons. Without oil injection, ring blowby from full-time positive pressure in cyls "steam cleaned" crankcase splash oil off cyl walls (even w/o scraper rings) and blew his engines in under 1000 mi.. He reported stem scoring problems with titanium valves, but now uses stainless w/no trouble. He runs like 1000°F steam, hi expansion, counterflow. Gets ~19mpg on the road, ~same as any peppy gas engine in a VW-based kit sports car (that's experience, not EPA "guesstimates"
.
So valve stem point lube is on the road, & could be carefully metered to eliminate excess. Not easy, but with enough R&D work you can use oil while keeping it out of the working fluid, just look at any successful 4-stroke IC engine. When there's oil in that working fluid, you know!
Graham Baker built workhorse steam engines with teflon tape stuffing boxes on the poppet valve stems. Long glands, compressed by the valve springs. He claimed they needed no special lube and lasted a long time, but I think he uses oily steam. Don't know if his inlet stems were constantly under (~600°F) inlet steam, but I seem to recall not. Side valves (L-head) with the inlet poppet stems in the expansion volume as I recall. Karl Peterson's website has (or at least had) some pages, pix and text, on the G. Baker engines, good ideas there for nearly any type of engine. There's a link to Karl's site at [www.geocities.com]
Dry lube injection, don't know. Might be worth a try. Maybe in a 1-cyl test engine so if it goes kerflooey, big defloculating deal. Speaking of graphite lube, at one time Stanley specified light distillate cylinder oil with defloculated graphite. Prob to cut condenser clogging (Barrett sez light 30W ND motor oil goes right thru his surface condenser, no buildup). Some said Stanley's black oil worked well for years, others reported plugged winkers etc.. One Stanley long-timer said this "keroseney black stuff" had less drag than the "locomotive molasses" now used, scale/rustproofed the system, wouldn't gunk up boiler, and gave better mpg. Nobody knows how it was made; not worth experimenting in the original cars. But for a new experimental (disposeable) engine ...
I've seen reports of people trying graphite rings etc in steam engines, but haven't seen reports of results. Don't know if this tells us something or not. Real-world superheated steam is corrosive and abrasive; engine parts prob shouldn't leave the house without a coat (of oil). Then again, Harry reports logging plenty of runtime with no oil, pretty amazing, so who knows. Special mention of the new Coates Rotary Valve system (Google it) for IC engines. Hi-tech modern materials (incl technical ceramics), hi-fpm sliding/rotating/sealing components in thermal-cycling oxidizing hi-temp environment with zero lube, and long runtime claims.
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine June 25, 2005 03:14AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
A direct link to the Graham Baker material:
[www.firedragon.com]
[www.firedragon.com]
Otherwise, you have to go to my links, click on Karl's page, then click on "The Steam Automobile" on Karl's index page. It's kind of hidden in Karl's website.
Peter
[www.firedragon.com]
[www.firedragon.com]
Otherwise, you have to go to my links, click on Karl's page, then click on "The Steam Automobile" on Karl's index page. It's kind of hidden in Karl's website.
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine June 25, 2005 11:10AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
Peter,
Thanks ever so much. Just the kind of data I need. I will be checking out everything I can.
Using oil then, since my proposed engine configuration is radical enough without adding more exotic materials such as carbon rings, does some of the more advanced IC engine cylinder technologys seem reasonable, such as nitrided cylinders with chromed or even diamond like coatings on the rings?
One of the other reasons I wanted to use oil lubrication in the engine is that the variable clearance mechanism uses oil and would probably have a minute leakage into the cylinder head. When I get my scanner working I will post the drawings of it as I can imagine no use for it other than steam engines.
I would do the same for the crankcase but I see possible applications to large industrial air compressors and diesel engines that use crossheads and am thinking that maybe the patents on the thing would be profitable. Problem is I don't have the funds to pursue the patenting right now. It would be great if the proceeds from something like that could finance the steam engine. Once again it would be free for any steam use.
It would be a good thing to see a few different steam engine cars such as Frank's, Harry's, mine and a further developed Williams perhaps on the road, (mine is much a compound Williams). Several such automobiles at the same time would, I believe, hit off each other in the public mind and enhance the acceptance, and sales, of any one by it'self.
For starting purposes I am going to design around a two hundred HP version, that seems modest but useable for a midsized car.
Thanks again ------------- Bill G.
Thanks ever so much. Just the kind of data I need. I will be checking out everything I can.
Using oil then, since my proposed engine configuration is radical enough without adding more exotic materials such as carbon rings, does some of the more advanced IC engine cylinder technologys seem reasonable, such as nitrided cylinders with chromed or even diamond like coatings on the rings?
One of the other reasons I wanted to use oil lubrication in the engine is that the variable clearance mechanism uses oil and would probably have a minute leakage into the cylinder head. When I get my scanner working I will post the drawings of it as I can imagine no use for it other than steam engines.
I would do the same for the crankcase but I see possible applications to large industrial air compressors and diesel engines that use crossheads and am thinking that maybe the patents on the thing would be profitable. Problem is I don't have the funds to pursue the patenting right now. It would be great if the proceeds from something like that could finance the steam engine. Once again it would be free for any steam use.
It would be a good thing to see a few different steam engine cars such as Frank's, Harry's, mine and a further developed Williams perhaps on the road, (mine is much a compound Williams). Several such automobiles at the same time would, I believe, hit off each other in the public mind and enhance the acceptance, and sales, of any one by it'self.
For starting purposes I am going to design around a two hundred HP version, that seems modest but useable for a midsized car.
Thanks again ------------- Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine June 26, 2005 08:56AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Bill,
Don't know if the special coatings would be worth the extra cost. Service life for new Stanley engines has been reported at 100-150,000 miles, and Dobles have run several times as far w/o engine overhauls. That's with plain cast iron pistons, rings, and cylinders, and unplated carbon steel piston/valve rods. Personally, I wouldn't worry about trick coatings unless a need for them became apparent in testing.
With a Lamont boiler, keeping oil out may not be too crucial. Where it is really a problem is in once-through monotubes like White or Doble boilers, where carbon forms from periodic localized overheating and oil blowing thru very hot tubes. There are many other ways to keep oil out of boiler besides keeping oil out of the exhaust steam. An exhaust steam oil separator is simple and cheap, and can get virtually all the oil. Superheater or evaporator coils which carbon up can be flushed out with Piston Kleen or replaced periodically; coil replacement can be simplified with proper design. Mobil SHC634 synthetic oil separates from the water in the water tank, floats, and stays away from water inlet. A floating oil filter (hollow-fiber polyethylene mat or bundle) can be placed in water tank to soak up every molecule of oil that comes out of condenser. Or oil control can be as simple as frequent (automatic?) blowdowns and an occasional cleaning. All stuff that Jim, David, Pat, and others have discussed recently on the boards. Many possible solutions.
Maintenance is a universal reality in all real-world machines. Even the vaunted "100,000 mile no maintenance" gas car engines are a crock. You still have to change oil and the oil, air, and fuel filters every 3000-6000 miles to get any decent service life out of them. They don't even try to eliminate these service jobs with self-cleaning filters or carbon-free engines. They don't have zero maintenance, they have "acceptable maintenance requirements". What are acceptable maintenance requirements for a modern steam car? It's worth considering. My personal design goal, at present, is the same number of maintenance jobs, of equivalent (or lower) cost and difficulty, and at same intervals, as in modern gas cars.
I too would like to see every steam car designer and developer out there get his powerplant in a running car and log some serious miles on the road. I think that more new experimental steamers on the road would not only improve the breed via experience, but would also improve the odds of more steam cars in production, at least in limited production.
Peter
Don't know if the special coatings would be worth the extra cost. Service life for new Stanley engines has been reported at 100-150,000 miles, and Dobles have run several times as far w/o engine overhauls. That's with plain cast iron pistons, rings, and cylinders, and unplated carbon steel piston/valve rods. Personally, I wouldn't worry about trick coatings unless a need for them became apparent in testing.
With a Lamont boiler, keeping oil out may not be too crucial. Where it is really a problem is in once-through monotubes like White or Doble boilers, where carbon forms from periodic localized overheating and oil blowing thru very hot tubes. There are many other ways to keep oil out of boiler besides keeping oil out of the exhaust steam. An exhaust steam oil separator is simple and cheap, and can get virtually all the oil. Superheater or evaporator coils which carbon up can be flushed out with Piston Kleen or replaced periodically; coil replacement can be simplified with proper design. Mobil SHC634 synthetic oil separates from the water in the water tank, floats, and stays away from water inlet. A floating oil filter (hollow-fiber polyethylene mat or bundle) can be placed in water tank to soak up every molecule of oil that comes out of condenser. Or oil control can be as simple as frequent (automatic?) blowdowns and an occasional cleaning. All stuff that Jim, David, Pat, and others have discussed recently on the boards. Many possible solutions.
Maintenance is a universal reality in all real-world machines. Even the vaunted "100,000 mile no maintenance" gas car engines are a crock. You still have to change oil and the oil, air, and fuel filters every 3000-6000 miles to get any decent service life out of them. They don't even try to eliminate these service jobs with self-cleaning filters or carbon-free engines. They don't have zero maintenance, they have "acceptable maintenance requirements". What are acceptable maintenance requirements for a modern steam car? It's worth considering. My personal design goal, at present, is the same number of maintenance jobs, of equivalent (or lower) cost and difficulty, and at same intervals, as in modern gas cars.
I too would like to see every steam car designer and developer out there get his powerplant in a running car and log some serious miles on the road. I think that more new experimental steamers on the road would not only improve the breed via experience, but would also improve the odds of more steam cars in production, at least in limited production.
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine June 26, 2005 11:07AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
Hello Peter,
I agree then that for any prototype at least the "trick" coatings can wait until if and when there is a proven need for them. I would want ceramic insulative coatings on the cylinderhead/steamchest, valves and piston top though. Clupet rings if I can get them in the sizes or more likely made.
With a Lamont boiler two questions; wouldn't the oil that gets into the water side tend to build up in concentration as the water evaporates and even though the generator (water) portion of the boiler doesn't get hot enough to form carbon would the oil then form an insulative film on the tubing surface?
I am thinking that the oil concentration might slowly build up in the drum before it finds its way or splashes into the superheater. If this is the case then the oil might be more controled by a very small portion of the circulating water being bled off and returned to the condenser. I would think that under operating conditions that the water and the oil would be thouroughly mixed in the drum.
Howard says that Peter Barrett is running the Mobile gear oil at 1200 degrees. Has anyone heard results from him? I don't have an e-mail address for him if he has one.
Also Jim mentioned that oil forms an insulative film on condenser surfaces impeding their performance. Do or would the polyethelene filters keep the oil down in the condenser enough to alleviate that problem?
Checked out the Graham Baker material, was very impressed. It appeares that he has acheaved pulse combustion in a very simple manor by the use of a diesel injector to control the fuel delivery and rate. I imagine that his burner would be very clean but is there any hard data on it? Maybe a spinning cup with one side blocked could achieve the same effect. The fire might proceed as a spiral with the same mix density variations as in pulse combustion.
Peter it appears from your website that you have done a lot of boiler designing. Would you venture a guess as to a ratio for boiler weight and volume for a given steam output for engines in the 1 - 2 hundred HP range?
My best to Everyone ----------------Bill G.
I agree then that for any prototype at least the "trick" coatings can wait until if and when there is a proven need for them. I would want ceramic insulative coatings on the cylinderhead/steamchest, valves and piston top though. Clupet rings if I can get them in the sizes or more likely made.
With a Lamont boiler two questions; wouldn't the oil that gets into the water side tend to build up in concentration as the water evaporates and even though the generator (water) portion of the boiler doesn't get hot enough to form carbon would the oil then form an insulative film on the tubing surface?
I am thinking that the oil concentration might slowly build up in the drum before it finds its way or splashes into the superheater. If this is the case then the oil might be more controled by a very small portion of the circulating water being bled off and returned to the condenser. I would think that under operating conditions that the water and the oil would be thouroughly mixed in the drum.
Howard says that Peter Barrett is running the Mobile gear oil at 1200 degrees. Has anyone heard results from him? I don't have an e-mail address for him if he has one.
Also Jim mentioned that oil forms an insulative film on condenser surfaces impeding their performance. Do or would the polyethelene filters keep the oil down in the condenser enough to alleviate that problem?
Checked out the Graham Baker material, was very impressed. It appeares that he has acheaved pulse combustion in a very simple manor by the use of a diesel injector to control the fuel delivery and rate. I imagine that his burner would be very clean but is there any hard data on it? Maybe a spinning cup with one side blocked could achieve the same effect. The fire might proceed as a spiral with the same mix density variations as in pulse combustion.
Peter it appears from your website that you have done a lot of boiler designing. Would you venture a guess as to a ratio for boiler weight and volume for a given steam output for engines in the 1 - 2 hundred HP range?
My best to Everyone ----------------Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine June 26, 2005 09:02PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 318 |
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Re: cyclone engine June 26, 2005 09:27PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Bill,
After this, we need to start a different thread, as we're way beyond the Cyclone engine thread topic.
Tank filters do nothing to keep oil out of the condenser, of course. They just keep it out of the boiler. An exhaust steam oil separator would be needed to keep oil out of the condenser, with the tank filter as an option to catch the last traces. Good exhaust steam separators catch 99%+ of the oil. Lest we think that having to periodically clean steam car condensers is some absolutely unthinkable horror, consider that current-production IC cooling systems -- radiators, blocks, pumps, etc -- need periodic flushing out & cleaning at comparable expense/hassle. It's not some optional clean-freak thing either. Let it slide and modern coolant breaks down into nasty corrosive junk that will eat the engine and cooling system alive, at great expense. [Long car repair stories deleted].
Internal steamed surface insulation in the engine, yes. Keep in mind the cheap home-shop (epoxy/ceramic?) engine thermal barrier coatings George mentioned some time ago. I have considered mixing some epoxy and alumina, in different ratios, and doing some adhesion and heat absorption tests. Ablative heat shields used in old NASA re-entry vehicles were made with epoxy. A steam engine shouldn't be hot enough for the epoxy to "ablate" (I hate those kinds of back-formations).
Clupets can be ordered, but I am told they are usually custom-made at a rather leisurely rate. Excellent rings, though.
On the Lamont, I tend to agree with you. Seems like water and oil would get very thoroughly mixed, however with a good circulation rate it might not build up on the tube walls where the heat transfer is happening, depending of course how heavy an oil is used. I would expect oil to accumulate in a Lamont's water, unless you used some very light oil which evaporated with the steam, which would then carbon the superheater and might not condense properly onto the cylinder walls (assuming oil injection). The advantage of Lamonts with oil, in theory, is that the oil and mud should stay in suspension w/o carboning, and are thus easily blown out before enough accumulates to give foaming and sludging problems. My idea there is have boiler blow down & refill itself automatically now & then (into a special tank). With a good oil separator on exhaust, & efficient condenser, this should be very infrequent. The ideal, I think, is "tiny traces" of oil in the water/steam system. Not massive blobs or high percentages, let alone heavy mayo emulsions.
I haven't seen any Barrett reports in a while. Somebody on LightSteam mentioned that he "doesn't do internet". Sure would be interesting to hear from him on the Boards, but he puts his "steam time" into the shop and drawing board.
Haven't seen any independent test data on Graham Baker's machines. That would be very interesting.
My boiler designing so far has been aimed at getting buildable blueprints to build and test, to guide further design work. Calculations and theory show some exciting possibilities, but these need testing. I'm looking at a possible 700/lb/hr boiler that could weigh ~100 lbs and have about the same unit volume as a small Stanley boiler. Needs building/testing, zero claims for now, just "design goals", which, with a couple bucks, will buy you a cup of coffee nearly anywhere except Starbleccchs.
Boiler size/weight for a given horsepower depends on engine water rate under various conditions, and on boiler type. Both of these can vary widely from one system to the next. Check out the table in George Nutz's Lamont article at Stanleysteamers.com. Lots of proven weight/size/steamrate figures for various types of practical steam car boilers, including the excellent real-world Lamont that he & Rod Teel designed, built and ran. That should give you some numbers to convert into estimates for your 200 hp powerplant (yikes). Best of luck with that, wow what a power output. You know, you can build a real road rocket and blow doors off the gas cars with a whole lot less than 200 hp.. Don't be fooled by the "gas car boys'" HP "ratings". Except for a handful of tiny econoboxes and outrageously exotic GT's, virtually no gas car engine is geared or loaded to actually develop anywhere near its "rated horsepower" under road conditions. Those ratings are, ahem, "salesmanship".
Peter
After this, we need to start a different thread, as we're way beyond the Cyclone engine thread topic.
Tank filters do nothing to keep oil out of the condenser, of course. They just keep it out of the boiler. An exhaust steam oil separator would be needed to keep oil out of the condenser, with the tank filter as an option to catch the last traces. Good exhaust steam separators catch 99%+ of the oil. Lest we think that having to periodically clean steam car condensers is some absolutely unthinkable horror, consider that current-production IC cooling systems -- radiators, blocks, pumps, etc -- need periodic flushing out & cleaning at comparable expense/hassle. It's not some optional clean-freak thing either. Let it slide and modern coolant breaks down into nasty corrosive junk that will eat the engine and cooling system alive, at great expense. [Long car repair stories deleted].
Internal steamed surface insulation in the engine, yes. Keep in mind the cheap home-shop (epoxy/ceramic?) engine thermal barrier coatings George mentioned some time ago. I have considered mixing some epoxy and alumina, in different ratios, and doing some adhesion and heat absorption tests. Ablative heat shields used in old NASA re-entry vehicles were made with epoxy. A steam engine shouldn't be hot enough for the epoxy to "ablate" (I hate those kinds of back-formations).
Clupets can be ordered, but I am told they are usually custom-made at a rather leisurely rate. Excellent rings, though.
On the Lamont, I tend to agree with you. Seems like water and oil would get very thoroughly mixed, however with a good circulation rate it might not build up on the tube walls where the heat transfer is happening, depending of course how heavy an oil is used. I would expect oil to accumulate in a Lamont's water, unless you used some very light oil which evaporated with the steam, which would then carbon the superheater and might not condense properly onto the cylinder walls (assuming oil injection). The advantage of Lamonts with oil, in theory, is that the oil and mud should stay in suspension w/o carboning, and are thus easily blown out before enough accumulates to give foaming and sludging problems. My idea there is have boiler blow down & refill itself automatically now & then (into a special tank). With a good oil separator on exhaust, & efficient condenser, this should be very infrequent. The ideal, I think, is "tiny traces" of oil in the water/steam system. Not massive blobs or high percentages, let alone heavy mayo emulsions.
I haven't seen any Barrett reports in a while. Somebody on LightSteam mentioned that he "doesn't do internet". Sure would be interesting to hear from him on the Boards, but he puts his "steam time" into the shop and drawing board.
Haven't seen any independent test data on Graham Baker's machines. That would be very interesting.
My boiler designing so far has been aimed at getting buildable blueprints to build and test, to guide further design work. Calculations and theory show some exciting possibilities, but these need testing. I'm looking at a possible 700/lb/hr boiler that could weigh ~100 lbs and have about the same unit volume as a small Stanley boiler. Needs building/testing, zero claims for now, just "design goals", which, with a couple bucks, will buy you a cup of coffee nearly anywhere except Starbleccchs.
Boiler size/weight for a given horsepower depends on engine water rate under various conditions, and on boiler type. Both of these can vary widely from one system to the next. Check out the table in George Nutz's Lamont article at Stanleysteamers.com. Lots of proven weight/size/steamrate figures for various types of practical steam car boilers, including the excellent real-world Lamont that he & Rod Teel designed, built and ran. That should give you some numbers to convert into estimates for your 200 hp powerplant (yikes). Best of luck with that, wow what a power output. You know, you can build a real road rocket and blow doors off the gas cars with a whole lot less than 200 hp.. Don't be fooled by the "gas car boys'" HP "ratings". Except for a handful of tiny econoboxes and outrageously exotic GT's, virtually no gas car engine is geared or loaded to actually develop anywhere near its "rated horsepower" under road conditions. Those ratings are, ahem, "salesmanship".
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine June 27, 2005 09:02AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill,
We did test solid lubricants in suspension. they were homoginezed in a blender. I thought wow a 4000f lube. it looked and felt like oil. The density of the the pariticals is more then water, when heated they seperated and fell to the bottom like sludge,o well. We use a CU 1100 high adhesive lubricant to assemble the heads and other part in high temp zones. Wurth. good to 2000f have seen a small resadue in the condenser of no harm.
went to the Keyes in the boat this weekend paid 3.05 for gas at the fuel dock, however diesel was only 1.85 this less than on the road where here it is more than gas 2.25. interesting.
Harry
We did test solid lubricants in suspension. they were homoginezed in a blender. I thought wow a 4000f lube. it looked and felt like oil. The density of the the pariticals is more then water, when heated they seperated and fell to the bottom like sludge,o well. We use a CU 1100 high adhesive lubricant to assemble the heads and other part in high temp zones. Wurth. good to 2000f have seen a small resadue in the condenser of no harm.
went to the Keyes in the boat this weekend paid 3.05 for gas at the fuel dock, however diesel was only 1.85 this less than on the road where here it is more than gas 2.25. interesting.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine June 27, 2005 05:53PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
Hello Harry,
Which solid lubricants did you test? I wonder if they were injected directly into the steam chests if they would convert back to powder there and spread around. Would like to know more about the CU1100.
Gas and diesel prices here in Minnesota have been bouncing around the $2.00 to $2.25 region for the last month, with diesel costing a few cents more than gasoline. I guess it's a permanent thing with diesel costing more than gasoline these days, back in the sixtys and seventys I believe it was less.
I don't think road tax would be charged for gas to fill up a boat. That may be why the diesel was less. Possibly there is more insurance to pay to service boats with gas. A customer of mine was refueling his uncles 40 ft Criss Craft when it blew into toothpicks. It blew them into the water, a miracle they all survived. What a waste of a beautiful boat.
The rising cost of fuel, more on the horizon, is one reason I am hot on the efficiency thing. Probably second childhood is why I'm after the horsepower.
I hope to make it to the meet this September, looking forward to meeting you and everyone.
Best of fortune in all you are doing ----------- Bill G.
Which solid lubricants did you test? I wonder if they were injected directly into the steam chests if they would convert back to powder there and spread around. Would like to know more about the CU1100.
Gas and diesel prices here in Minnesota have been bouncing around the $2.00 to $2.25 region for the last month, with diesel costing a few cents more than gasoline. I guess it's a permanent thing with diesel costing more than gasoline these days, back in the sixtys and seventys I believe it was less.
I don't think road tax would be charged for gas to fill up a boat. That may be why the diesel was less. Possibly there is more insurance to pay to service boats with gas. A customer of mine was refueling his uncles 40 ft Criss Craft when it blew into toothpicks. It blew them into the water, a miracle they all survived. What a waste of a beautiful boat.
The rising cost of fuel, more on the horizon, is one reason I am hot on the efficiency thing. Probably second childhood is why I'm after the horsepower.
I hope to make it to the meet this September, looking forward to meeting you and everyone.
Best of fortune in all you are doing ----------- Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine June 28, 2005 10:32AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill,
We tested powered graphite as it can be as fine as 4microns. as water density drops with heat it might be dificult to hold any paritical in suspension. I was discouraged with these tests so we moved on. Does't mean there is not a better answer. Took Edison 1500 light bulbs to get one to work. Non inventers will say it has all been done before, not even close. You will be discouraged a hundred times, making one breakthrough makes it all worthwile. The grease is basicly for static lubricateing threads. which is what we use it for, good stuff.
Wurth USA inc
Ramsey, NJ 07446
(201) 825-2710
Harry
We tested powered graphite as it can be as fine as 4microns. as water density drops with heat it might be dificult to hold any paritical in suspension. I was discouraged with these tests so we moved on. Does't mean there is not a better answer. Took Edison 1500 light bulbs to get one to work. Non inventers will say it has all been done before, not even close. You will be discouraged a hundred times, making one breakthrough makes it all worthwile. The grease is basicly for static lubricateing threads. which is what we use it for, good stuff.
Wurth USA inc
Ramsey, NJ 07446
(201) 825-2710
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine June 28, 2005 07:31PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Harry-
Just out of curiousity have you experimented with molybendlm lubicants. Also have you detected any advanages using organic ingredents such as tallow. I am still experimenting with tallow, first thing i noticed is that it changed the boiling point of the water(to a higher temp) that i was working with under pressure. I agree with George-N, your powerplant, is a unique and compact of design.
Just wanted to let everyone know Im joining the SACA, I feel its just as important as other society's I enjoy membersip in. Especially related to mobility.
Just as an aside Harry, I really enjoy'd looking at your concept design, for a car. The world needs more can-do people.
This has been a really hectic month for me at my day-job, hopefully next month I will get a chance to catch up on the great treads going on lately.
Jeremy
Just out of curiousity have you experimented with molybendlm lubicants. Also have you detected any advanages using organic ingredents such as tallow. I am still experimenting with tallow, first thing i noticed is that it changed the boiling point of the water(to a higher temp) that i was working with under pressure. I agree with George-N, your powerplant, is a unique and compact of design.
Just wanted to let everyone know Im joining the SACA, I feel its just as important as other society's I enjoy membersip in. Especially related to mobility.
Just as an aside Harry, I really enjoy'd looking at your concept design, for a car. The world needs more can-do people.
This has been a really hectic month for me at my day-job, hopefully next month I will get a chance to catch up on the great treads going on lately.
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine June 29, 2005 10:06AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
hi Jeremy,
What we are building is a truley modern engine totaly water lubercated. Our engines have been run this way with good success. It is necessary with the high temps we are running. Ten years ago this would not be possible. The more we move in this direction the more we find we are on the right track. At this time we spent about 4000 manhours of enginering time alone. A lot of expermental and out side consultants. The single cylinder engine is hand drawn the two cylinder and the six cylinder are all on cad. we have 1 one cylinder 2 two cylinder and 4 six cylinder test engines.
The old guys will be at the SACA meet in sept that realy know what they are doing ,they can answer a lot of questions. I'll bring an engine or two.
Harry
What we are building is a truley modern engine totaly water lubercated. Our engines have been run this way with good success. It is necessary with the high temps we are running. Ten years ago this would not be possible. The more we move in this direction the more we find we are on the right track. At this time we spent about 4000 manhours of enginering time alone. A lot of expermental and out side consultants. The single cylinder engine is hand drawn the two cylinder and the six cylinder are all on cad. we have 1 one cylinder 2 two cylinder and 4 six cylinder test engines.
The old guys will be at the SACA meet in sept that realy know what they are doing ,they can answer a lot of questions. I'll bring an engine or two.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine July 08, 2005 01:28PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
It appears some folks liked the car. So here is some boats.
This is a 50' sport yacht with twin 500hp cyclone engines.
Harry
This is a 50' sport yacht with twin 500hp cyclone engines.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine July 08, 2005 07:15PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine July 09, 2005 12:59PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill,
This hull is what is called a DDC the drive is a Pulse Drive surface drive, this combo is about the best efficency ( 270) without going to ground effect.
The weight is 17000lbs hp/wt=17 square is 4.123
270/4.123=65.48mph
Howard's hydro should operate near 300 efficency if
near the 100mph range as it is groung effect. I think he is on the right track using high compression uniflow,as the weight is so important.
Harry
This hull is what is called a DDC the drive is a Pulse Drive surface drive, this combo is about the best efficency ( 270) without going to ground effect.
The weight is 17000lbs hp/wt=17 square is 4.123
270/4.123=65.48mph
Howard's hydro should operate near 300 efficency if
near the 100mph range as it is groung effect. I think he is on the right track using high compression uniflow,as the weight is so important.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine July 09, 2005 05:02PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine July 13, 2005 10:01AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill,
These are our personal formulas. did't intend to get off thread.
Harry
These are our personal formulas. did't intend to get off thread.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine July 13, 2005 10:18AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 04, 2005 03:40PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Cyclone update;
This is the wax model of the 16 blade impellor for the blower it is counter rotating to diliver 5000cu ft per min. it is an investment casting of aluminum.
the other views are of the combustion chamber.
This is the wax model of the 16 blade impellor for the blower it is counter rotating to diliver 5000cu ft per min. it is an investment casting of aluminum.
the other views are of the combustion chamber.
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Re: cyclone engine August 06, 2005 01:23PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 06, 2005 11:25PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 08, 2005 09:00AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill,
It took many years of model testing and practial experance also propellors, drives, engines. At this point a lot of the mystery has gone. We are on to a new adventure the cyclone engine. A lot to learn, made a lot of progress. The slow part is getting the machined parts, frustrating to say the least.
Harry
It took many years of model testing and practial experance also propellors, drives, engines. At this point a lot of the mystery has gone. We are on to a new adventure the cyclone engine. A lot to learn, made a lot of progress. The slow part is getting the machined parts, frustrating to say the least.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine August 08, 2005 09:50AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
Hello Harry,
Are you farming out much of your machining or doing it in house?
I am wondering how to start the prototype building process once some more final drawings are finished. Do I shop around for the lowest price quality machining I can afford, or sell the house and buy an old machine shop that I can live in? There are some fine machinists and shops in various foriegn countrys but shipping is often dubious, or slow.
As you said the waiting can be frustrating so probably closer is better.
Just looking down the road a bit.
Good Fortune to Your Project --------------Bill G.
Are you farming out much of your machining or doing it in house?
I am wondering how to start the prototype building process once some more final drawings are finished. Do I shop around for the lowest price quality machining I can afford, or sell the house and buy an old machine shop that I can live in? There are some fine machinists and shops in various foriegn countrys but shipping is often dubious, or slow.
As you said the waiting can be frustrating so probably closer is better.
Just looking down the road a bit.
Good Fortune to Your Project --------------Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine August 08, 2005 12:33PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 19, 2005 11:59AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Cyclone up date,
THis is the 6cyl version, note the high capasity blower
THis is the 6cyl version, note the high capasity blower
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Re: cyclone engine August 19, 2005 05:37PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 20, 2005 10:50AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Andy,
this is the picture of the 6 cyl it has not run yet, still waiting parts from the machine shop. when it is ready will let you know. The 2cyl has been run seveal times it will soon be installed on a 10kw generator. We will be bringing the 2cyl to the SACA meet in Sept. Hope you will be there.
Harry
this is the picture of the 6 cyl it has not run yet, still waiting parts from the machine shop. when it is ready will let you know. The 2cyl has been run seveal times it will soon be installed on a 10kw generator. We will be bringing the 2cyl to the SACA meet in Sept. Hope you will be there.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine August 22, 2005 02:14PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 22, 2005 05:17PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 23, 2005 03:21PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
Hi Bill
Recient car problems have hurt. Both my vehicals broke down a few weeks ago. One the oil pump failed. The other I think the themostat stuck. On the way home from work it over heated and I didn't notice soon enough. It's a 40 mile commute. On the trip home I'm usually on auto pilot.
Any way looking at a rebuilt engine for the Blazer. Around $1600.00. That puts a hurt in my plans on the meet this year.
Recient car problems have hurt. Both my vehicals broke down a few weeks ago. One the oil pump failed. The other I think the themostat stuck. On the way home from work it over heated and I didn't notice soon enough. It's a 40 mile commute. On the trip home I'm usually on auto pilot.
Any way looking at a rebuilt engine for the Blazer. Around $1600.00. That puts a hurt in my plans on the meet this year.
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