Re: cyclone engine
July 13, 2009 03:17PM
This is the thread that I wanted to post this message to. Sorry, I ended up posting it on the William's thread as I was reading that, too. My appology to Howard for my lack of understanding with Williams. The message I should have posted here is:

Great thread. I only had time to read the first 7 and last 4 pages. I may have missed this but what is the efficiency, and the output for various speeds and loads?

Charles Gutha
Re: cyclone engine
July 25, 2009 12:59PM
Harry,

I have been involved the time consuming family funerals and related matters so apologise for asking questions that you may have covered.

1. Is anyone licensed to make your 10Kw generators? If so who, please?

2. Our wood burner project is now ahead of expectations so is there a suggested direction you are at liberty to suggest for an end-user?

Wishing you all the best, Cordially, Graham
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
July 27, 2009 09:25AM
Hi Graham
There is a lot going on and of course I am not a liberty to decuss any pending contracts. there is anouncements on the website when a new contract is signed.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
July 30, 2009 12:05PM
Harry, we have solved the glycerine issue. Graham
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
August 19, 2009 12:55PM
Hi Guys
A Cyclone update.
The MK 2 has been tested extensily on the dyno at several power readings some over 24 hp. At a constant fuel burn rate of .796 gallon per hr diesel ( 139200 btu) and a hp 13.4 hp constant run we were achieving 30.75 % efficency This was slightly higher than the air cooled version as it did not have to run cooling blowers as this version is water cooled for marine use. These engines are 100% condencing and water lubricated. It Has the capabilaty to start from cold in 5 seconds. The combustion exaust temperature is 250 f . The calculations on this engine match the performance except the earlier engine had a 350f exaust temperature calculated and it ran at that but with a larger heat exchanger we were able to bring this down to the 250f . Over 30% of the heat is recycled back into the engine. It apears strange when the combustion air shuts off to maintain constant steam temperature and it runs at an eerie silence. It will run up to 5000 rpm or as slow as 150 rpm. Of course this is a two cylinder engine so it is not self starting using an electric starter only needing a slight bump when temp reaches 350 f. About one in 5 times it will self start. Other engines are running durabliy tests for life hours before being released into production. We expect slightly higher efficency numbers for the MK 5 engine but these tests are a few mounths away. It will run on any fuel or any combination of them.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
August 19, 2009 08:57PM
Hi Harry,

I remarked on another thread recently, that I thought that it was refreshing that you were making strides with your efforts. Thanks for keeping us updated here. I feel confident that you may exceed 30% efficiency with your design. With other engine models (that im working with) conservation of heat is a major factor to boosting eff#'s.

"This was slightly higher than the air cooled version as it did not have to run cooling blowers as this version is water cooled for marine use. -HLS"

With regards to the air-cooled versions, what is the rated min-bursting pressure of the air-cooled condenser assemblies? I noticed that when you demostrated to me the MARK 5 (6-cylinder engine) reversing under speed, driven by compressed air. That there were no support-stays on the condenser assy. This engine was the one that had the cut-away condenser, open to atmosphere.

Ive attached a simple drawing to illustrate what I mean. I figure such a modification(both internal and external) with say 1/2inch wide by 1/8th inch thick mutiple stays TIG welded to the condencer (bellows) such a feature would not only increase surface-area, but could prevent un-wanted warpage, and nullify thrust-pressures within the assy, and get an emergency safety-valve into a range that would be far and away from operating pressures, in the event of condencer airflow failure.


hope this helps


Best


Jeremy


HLS
Re: cyclone engine
August 20, 2009 09:12AM
HI Jeremy
You are right on target as it dose have studs that go through the condencer plates also where the water can drain to the pan. The condencer design is the same for the water cooled as is for the air cooled except for double the surface area for the air version. The condencer pressure seldem exceeds 5 psi and usually operates bellow 2psi. They have been tested to 30psi. Condencing starts at the cylinder exaust port then water spray then is spun into the flat plates. It is 100% condencing. Condencing is the hardest to do because od the temperature differential. Heating is eaiser as 1000f from 2000f flame whereas exaust steam from a port at 400f to 160 to ambiant is much more dificult. The original design was to obtain a pan temp of 180f but now we can get it to 120f with an ambiant temp of 85f. You have to move a lot of air against a lot kof surface area. A automotive radiator is poor for steam as it is good to cool down water. Again water to steam temperature differential
Regards
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
August 20, 2009 02:40PM
Hi Harry,

Thanks for the reply. 100% condensing sealed system. Im hoping that you will be the first to demonstrate this on a commercial scale, although im unsure if it has ever been achieved in independant research ever. I know that Bill Lear attempted this, and was looking for an alternative to water, but am not sure if this was to get away from potential freezing problems associated with water, or to optimize a closed system with an alternative to water.

Sounds like your making some good progress with the water lubrication, and it make's sense why you would choose water as the working fluid, for your systems.

Your among, fellow steam engine designers here, so if you misspell alittle, its okay, we all do it from time to time. One thing that I will do to help me, is open 2 windows, one with the forum, and another with an open a program like "works word processor or msoft word" and toggle between screens to do my spell checking when I have a question about the spelling of a word that im typing in my replies, or postings. It works pretty good for me, and should help others, I dont use the forums spell checker when posting, because I feel the spell check reference databases in word or works are larger, and have more of the technical terms. Sometimes I will even open a 3rd window to use googles spell checker. Got to keep up on the grammar thing, you are representing alot Harry. Its alittle more work when posting but I feel its worth it. However, sometimes alittle misspelling cant be avoided.


Best


Jeremy
Re: cyclone engine
August 20, 2009 03:59PM
Hi All,

If I may, I would like to add something extra. Harry was most forthcoming with his demonstration of the MARK 5 engine, I even remarked to Harry, "Wow" this engine must come in handy at the tradeshows, he then replied, No, this has never been seen at the shows. There was a clear cutaway, 'of the running engine' [while it was running] showing some sort of central ring, which was adjusted in angular setting as he was demonstrating the engine running, and throttling, then as the setting was adjusted in the same direction, farther, the engines rotation, shifted to CCW, while under-speed at I guesstimate the RPM was over 500.

Anyhow, depending on the grouping[classification] of alloy grade from 4011 to 5356 of the aluminum,[the condenser is made from] with the diameter and wall thickness of the segments of the condenser,[based on temp compensated tensile strength] I figure a min-bursting pressure of about 560psi/575psia for the condencer that I saw, "the cutaway of the running MARK 5 condenser". we both nodded as to the raspy sound of the exhaust pulsations from the engine running from a compressed air-source and the condenser open to atmosphere[ambient pressures]. Too me it sounded good, and makes me think of IMEP calculations for spark-advance in IC engines.

With the stuff im currently working with, the duration and advance for admission are fixed, even thou the system is totally electronic, and I could adjust these parameters easily. Harry is completing the same function mechanically, it inspires me to experiment with something other than adjustable lift valve function, of steam admission, with respect to throttling.


Jeremy
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
September 10, 2009 12:47PM
HI Friends
This is the WHE running on wood pellets [www.youtube.com]
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
September 10, 2009 01:09PM
Looks good Harry, like the woodgas burner.

Best


Jeremy
Re: cyclone engine
September 18, 2009 02:40PM
hi all.

thought you all might like to see the Houston News with Harry from 9/17/09. It is really great to see the cyclone engines being discussed, and now in the algae community. Mike

[www.39online.com]
Re: cyclone engine
October 13, 2009 06:38AM
Hi Harry..
Hope you're doing great.. I was just looking at the Mark V mock up diagram/picture. I hope this isn't too dumb of a question but here goes. Did you ever think about running the coils in the cyclonic chamber around the outer wall of the chamber? It looks to me like the heat from the combustion is forced outward. Later.. ernie
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
October 13, 2009 10:04AM
Hi Ernie
When the combustion is in a spin the heaverer unburned particals stay to the outer wall. the bottom of the fire is the coolest. there is an aerodynamic effect where even with out the cover on the flame will spinn around the curve of the inner coils. The outer coils will have a better expossure then moving to the center the volume decrease with the temperature. Incressing volume would have a cooling effect. Outer coils would tend to prematurely cool down the flame front and not give a complete burn. We want to keep it down to the 2000f level to minamize nox. Our heat exchanger at present has an effecency of 88% and total engine plant on dyno achieved over 30% thermal , a gas IC engine is about 25% so we are very pleased with this as it was on our smaller MK 2 engine. The Mark V should be better.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
October 13, 2009 11:24PM
Hello Harry,

Harry, then that would mean that your engine efficiency is around 34% to 35%. That IS good.

Best Regards, --- Bill G.
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
October 14, 2009 09:59AM
Hi Bill
Engine efficency is different and much higher than plant efficency. Plant efficency is fuel in, hp out that is where we are at. Total. Gas IC engines operate up to 25% and diesels 30% to 38% depending on compression. The larger the engine usualy the efficency is better as in the big marine diesels. You cannot fool mother nature as gas engine efficency claims. Electrics will be not much more than a golf cart. We hope to gain some more on the 30% on the Mark V engine but dyno tests are nessary to support the claims. However the calculations did match the dyno.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
October 15, 2009 02:25AM
Thanks Harry for the great explanation! Can't wait to see the Mark V cranking out some horses! Sounds like it is all coming together!
Take Care! Ernie
Re: cyclone engine
October 25, 2009 11:42AM
Great going Harry.

120F out of the condenser sounds like it is doing the job.

Possibly a little to good. What heat you take past that needed to prevent catavation is extra you have to put back in.

What does the efficiency look like across it's power range and RPM range.

Andy.
Re: cyclone engine
October 30, 2009 08:39AM
Hi Folks,

Harry is having some trouble posting replies to your questions. We are trying to resolve this issue.

Best,
Scott Finegan
Re: cyclone engine
November 09, 2009 06:10PM
[cyclonepower.com]


I thought it was so great how few parts needed for a cyclone engine in compared to a regular engine. Take a look at this. Really interesting. Katmaster (mike)
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
November 14, 2009 01:43PM
Hi Andy
Good to hear from you and welcome back. Sorry for the delay in answering.
The efficency for generator engines is nearly flat but lower powerout puts tend to have a lower efficency. this is on the Mk2 engine as it has a fixed cutoff and an electric starter. It is made for constant RPM.
The MK5 (car engine) has a varible cutoff ,compression and throttle . The calculated efficency below 1000 RPM with long cuttoff for self starting and high torque is 17% whereas with short cuttoff and high compression it should go over 30 %
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
November 18, 2009 02:41PM
Hi Harry

What I am most interested in is the power range you are able to achieve and the efficiency over that power range.

I have done analysis of cycles over power ranges using different methods of power control.

Using throttling there is a compromise between power range and efficiency.

For example if you have full expansion from boiler pressure to exhaust pressure you have no room to throttle before ovre expanding below exhaust pressure. So efficience would drop of vrey qiuickly as you continue throyling.

With lower expansion you have room to throttle befor over expansion occures. Within that throttling range you get nearly constant system efficiency.

With the extream high pressure you are using and high expansion ratio you should be getiing good nearly constant efficiency over some power range.

It sounds like what you are seeing.

Andy
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
December 01, 2009 12:37PM
[www.youtube.com]
Hi Guys
This is the Mark V combustion burners It will put out much more than in the vidio tried to put on the Cyclone thread must be too full.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
December 01, 2009 05:05PM
Impressive to say the least.
Re: cyclone engine
December 01, 2009 08:02PM
Hi Harry,

Looks good, have you considered a pyrex glass cover, so that the sequencing of the burners and attenuation(blue flame) of the flame in ambiguity of the combustion pathway, can be seen? If you've got everything (past thermal shock) warmed up, there should not be any carbon film build up. Would definitly make for some good footage, and a tuning advantage.

Best


Jeremy
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
December 02, 2009 11:12AM
Hi Jeremy
we do use windows for testing to watch the flow inside the firebox. Of course this without secondary air witch enters the preimeter and the fire turns a clean blue. This secondary air is pre heated

Hi Andy
Below the 1000rpm range you are operating in the longer cutoff range for high torque starting. The higher efficency is in the short cuttoff range. The throtteling is acomplished at the engine valve so there is no secondary pressure drop.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
December 02, 2009 01:47PM
Hi Harry

In theory the most efficient cycle is
zero clearance full expansion. But
we can not make a zero clearance
positive displacement engine. But
if we could the full expansion would
not have room to throttle. It would go
into over expansion.

With compression we can achieve
effective zero clearance. But that
doesn't solve the over expansion
problem with throttling at full
expansion.

My complicated method of getting full expansion with power control was to vary clearance and cutoff to maintain full expansion while varying exhaust timing to keep full compression' effective zero clearance.

Another way has recently come to mind. Over compression. Basically you get back most of the compression work when it expands.

Andy
Re: cyclone engine
December 02, 2009 09:45PM
Hi Harry,

Thanks for the reply.

Quote
HLS
Hi Jeremy
we do use windows for testing to watch the flow inside the firebox. Of course this without secondary air witch enters the preimeter and the fire turns a clean blue. This secondary air is pre heated

So how does the primary air-source come about?

Im glad that you understand "flame ambiguity" clearly external combustion has a different burn-rate (generally a more complete burn, than internal-combustion technology). Lets not forget that this occurs at 15psi or 0 psia, depenting how far abouve sea-level.

I remember discussing with you before Harry, about your evolution, from when you replaced the cover/shroud with composite materials from the inital metal construction of the cover.

Also, I remember mentioning that "IR" radiation is collected as in a sink, with any metal, within transmission range of the source (flame-front).

Even if composites are used, the "IR" source is still transferring energys. In fact the only way to bounce back such energies to the source is with an "IR MIRROR". If I recall what I was thinking at the time, its just a piece of glass, with an IR refelective coating, so visible light may pass thru it, but not IR radiation.

So basically even pyrex glass would melt(and turn red) at full heat output, without the coating, IR energy would sink into any (blackbody) or mass quantity within range...

Jeremy
Re: cyclone engine
December 02, 2009 10:34PM
Hi All,

I felt it was important, to add something extra here, because all of this, it just really comes down to basic physics.

Lets take this (hypothetical) argument, about what im saying about the "IR MIRROR", here's a fer-instance.

Ok, the shroud for the Cyclone Mark 5 could be made from composite alumina. I take off my wedding ring, then lay my hand on the Cyclone engine cover, and its cool to the touch, within ambient temp.

Then, I put my wedding ring back on, again, lay my hand on the Cyclone cover/shroud,(running) and my finger-tips are cool to the touch of the cover, and the longer I lay my hand near the cover, does my wedding ring get abnormally hot? when within, that proximity, of the cover for an extended period of time?

Without an IR mirror, you should take your wedding ring off, before you check to see how hot the cover is, hopefully, for longer than 60 seconds or so, enuff time has not past for anyone to feel the IR radiation absorbing into the ring, but however, within such close proximity to the Cyclone engine cover, I would be suprised if you could keep you hand on the cover for about 10 minutes or less without your wedding ring burning your finger.

Jeremy
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
December 03, 2009 09:17AM
Hi Jeremy
Exellent observation ,we are doing working in this area. The observation windos are small 2" diameter windows and when mounted on the outer perimeter they are oin a coller portion of dthe flame front. The inside of the combustion does have a ceramic coating.
Harry
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