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Re: cyclone engine April 27, 2009 05:35PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Hi Harry,
Thanks for the warm response. Ive been doing some work on the copper sapphire coating for aluminum recently. As I get a sample together, I will sent it to Cyclone, care of you. Im still ironing out the application method(as is always the case with these type of things) the coating appears blue-ish to rainbow with deep voilet accents.
The coating is designed to be eddy-current neutral, providing corrosion protection, and enhanced thermal conduction. Also the coating is smooth and hard, which should be great for aluminum cylinders.
I found a picture of your condenser, on your site, I feel that can be coated pretty economically.
Best
Jeremy
Thanks for the warm response. Ive been doing some work on the copper sapphire coating for aluminum recently. As I get a sample together, I will sent it to Cyclone, care of you. Im still ironing out the application method(as is always the case with these type of things) the coating appears blue-ish to rainbow with deep voilet accents.
The coating is designed to be eddy-current neutral, providing corrosion protection, and enhanced thermal conduction. Also the coating is smooth and hard, which should be great for aluminum cylinders.
I found a picture of your condenser, on your site, I feel that can be coated pretty economically.
Best
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine April 28, 2009 10:16AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Thanks Jeremy
At the present time we are anodizing all the aluminum parts there is an anodiozer around the corner from us. We have to go elsewaer for hard coat that we use on some ware parts. Of course useing the right alloys are the most important. I cannot express enough enough that a modern high temp full condencing engine and its systems be built of non rusting or coroding materials. the particals will destroy the engine. Even micron filters are necessary and donnot use swamp water as I call it. I am ancious to test your coating.
Harry
At the present time we are anodizing all the aluminum parts there is an anodiozer around the corner from us. We have to go elsewaer for hard coat that we use on some ware parts. Of course useing the right alloys are the most important. I cannot express enough enough that a modern high temp full condencing engine and its systems be built of non rusting or coroding materials. the particals will destroy the engine. Even micron filters are necessary and donnot use swamp water as I call it. I am ancious to test your coating.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 28, 2009 06:27PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 180 |
Scott-
My paper is copyrighted by SAE, so I can't post it. The essense of it was there's a lot of work being done with advanced high strength steel grades like Dual Phase 590/600 for body parts and frames, which allows more thickness and weigh reduction than the standard high strength low alloy grades. My work was on suspension parts like motor mounts or McPherson struts, which have been mostly ignored. I made a deep-drawn cup for a Mazda engine mount, which the mill guys (my former coworkers) said could not possibly be done. Did it, and with no more effort than a typical die tryout process. I've also done a McPherson strut spring seat.
These were only proof of concept trials so far. The production dies for the cup cost about $200,000. Making a cup with thinner walls would cost about $40,000 just for tryout dies, and there's the rub. The steel costs about 15% more, but I am sure I can reduce thickness at least 20% or more, so there is a net savings, but right now getting anyone to spring for this kind of work is impossible. My shop is at half of last year now, and in a good year we do $20 mill in sales, so we can't afford this on our own.
As far as the club is concerned, this is one-of-these-days sort of stuff. Aside from Ken and me, I doubt most of you have access to thousand-ton stamping presses. This stuff has real potential, but you have to put significant strain into it to harden it up. It can form complex shapes with tensile strength over 90 ksi, so once we all decide on a design we want to market, we can take a lot of weight out of the body. C'mon guys, hurry up!
Tom
My paper is copyrighted by SAE, so I can't post it. The essense of it was there's a lot of work being done with advanced high strength steel grades like Dual Phase 590/600 for body parts and frames, which allows more thickness and weigh reduction than the standard high strength low alloy grades. My work was on suspension parts like motor mounts or McPherson struts, which have been mostly ignored. I made a deep-drawn cup for a Mazda engine mount, which the mill guys (my former coworkers) said could not possibly be done. Did it, and with no more effort than a typical die tryout process. I've also done a McPherson strut spring seat.
These were only proof of concept trials so far. The production dies for the cup cost about $200,000. Making a cup with thinner walls would cost about $40,000 just for tryout dies, and there's the rub. The steel costs about 15% more, but I am sure I can reduce thickness at least 20% or more, so there is a net savings, but right now getting anyone to spring for this kind of work is impossible. My shop is at half of last year now, and in a good year we do $20 mill in sales, so we can't afford this on our own.
As far as the club is concerned, this is one-of-these-days sort of stuff. Aside from Ken and me, I doubt most of you have access to thousand-ton stamping presses. This stuff has real potential, but you have to put significant strain into it to harden it up. It can form complex shapes with tensile strength over 90 ksi, so once we all decide on a design we want to market, we can take a lot of weight out of the body. C'mon guys, hurry up!
Tom
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Re: cyclone engine April 28, 2009 07:22PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Hi Tom,
Former member of SAE here...
"My paper is copyrighted by SAE, so I can't post it."
I sincerly doubt that. Only 'technical papers' are subject to re-sale. If you presented a 'technical paper' at congress this may not be the same thing. In otherwords, the fact that you may have made a technical presentation(which is only allowed by SAE members, by the way) and were not laughed off of the presentation podium, is a good thing, I agree with you...
The reality is, such things are public domain for the most-part, unless there are special circumstances?
Best
Jeremy
Former member of SAE here...
"My paper is copyrighted by SAE, so I can't post it."
I sincerly doubt that. Only 'technical papers' are subject to re-sale. If you presented a 'technical paper' at congress this may not be the same thing. In otherwords, the fact that you may have made a technical presentation(which is only allowed by SAE members, by the way) and were not laughed off of the presentation podium, is a good thing, I agree with you...
The reality is, such things are public domain for the most-part, unless there are special circumstances?
Best
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine April 29, 2009 08:12AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Harry,
One nice thing about oil lube is that the wear particles are carried out of the cylinders with the oil in exhaust, instead of building up and grinding things. A bit of ring blow-by helps "steam clean" the particles off the bores/pistons and from around/between the rings too. Particles separate out elsewhere in the system. I am always fascinated by the silvery residue on the oil strainer plate in my Old Bug engine at oil change time. It settles and accumulates right under the oil pump uptake. Obviously aluminum worn off the piston skirts. I wipe it off the strainer plate at every oil change. Engine keeps on running, though. About 100,000 road miles and still going strong. "Normal" car engines grab the particles in the oil filter. Where there's cylinders & pistons, there's friction, wear, and particles. Anodizing gives nice hard particles, an excellent abrasive; particles from harder coatings are even more effective. Hi temp will "peck" off surface particles from micro-peaks inside tubing too. Add some velocity, and it's a cascade effect, every particle abrading off more downline. In a good circulating boiler with a trace of oil, wear particles and "swampticulates" become easily-blown-out "mud".
Peter
One nice thing about oil lube is that the wear particles are carried out of the cylinders with the oil in exhaust, instead of building up and grinding things. A bit of ring blow-by helps "steam clean" the particles off the bores/pistons and from around/between the rings too. Particles separate out elsewhere in the system. I am always fascinated by the silvery residue on the oil strainer plate in my Old Bug engine at oil change time. It settles and accumulates right under the oil pump uptake. Obviously aluminum worn off the piston skirts. I wipe it off the strainer plate at every oil change. Engine keeps on running, though. About 100,000 road miles and still going strong. "Normal" car engines grab the particles in the oil filter. Where there's cylinders & pistons, there's friction, wear, and particles. Anodizing gives nice hard particles, an excellent abrasive; particles from harder coatings are even more effective. Hi temp will "peck" off surface particles from micro-peaks inside tubing too. Add some velocity, and it's a cascade effect, every particle abrading off more downline. In a good circulating boiler with a trace of oil, wear particles and "swampticulates" become easily-blown-out "mud".
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine April 29, 2009 09:32AM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 180 |
Jeremy,
The release form I signed was quite specific. They own the rights to the paper, and they sell copies. Posting a copy on a website that can be viewed by the general public is a definite violation. I plan to do some more work with them, and do not want them mad at me. Once I get my picture editor working again I'll post a few shots.
Tom
The release form I signed was quite specific. They own the rights to the paper, and they sell copies. Posting a copy on a website that can be viewed by the general public is a definite violation. I plan to do some more work with them, and do not want them mad at me. Once I get my picture editor working again I'll post a few shots.
Tom
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Re: cyclone engine April 29, 2009 11:28AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
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Re: cyclone engine May 07, 2009 12:49AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 177 |
Sure there are particles in every system. The hard ones which cause wear and the complex molecules that stick to things are the most problematic. Centrifugal separation, promoted heavily by Dyson this century, is a passive answer. Cyclone is a no-goo system! The optimum system might have a collection and storage area which is sufficient for the life of the device to avoid any cleaning. This might be logical in the WHE since it is of lower power and perhaps more limited life.
Harry, what is used here?
The delegate from Idaho has been heard from...
Karl Petersen
Harry, what is used here?
The delegate from Idaho has been heard from...
Karl Petersen
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Re: cyclone engine May 07, 2009 08:45AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Karl
The little WHE engine takes different configurations as the heat exchanger and condencer are not part of the engine as in the SC engines. the Bent Glass co beta test has a water tank below the condencer. This is all in one package. of course. The heat exchanger is in in the waste heat stack. This instalation is done by Waste Heat Resorses. Using water as the lube and steam clean operation there is very little sticky matter in this closed loop system.
Harry
The little WHE engine takes different configurations as the heat exchanger and condencer are not part of the engine as in the SC engines. the Bent Glass co beta test has a water tank below the condencer. This is all in one package. of course. The heat exchanger is in in the waste heat stack. This instalation is done by Waste Heat Resorses. Using water as the lube and steam clean operation there is very little sticky matter in this closed loop system.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine May 07, 2009 07:34PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Hi Karl,
"Sure there are particles in every system. The hard ones which cause wear and the complex molecules that stick to things are the most problematic."
If this is true, then how do you explain graphite partical lubricants. On otherwords, does it really matter, if the lubrication for any given bearing or sliding surface is hydroscopic or not?
Best
Jeremy
"Sure there are particles in every system. The hard ones which cause wear and the complex molecules that stick to things are the most problematic."
If this is true, then how do you explain graphite partical lubricants. On otherwords, does it really matter, if the lubrication for any given bearing or sliding surface is hydroscopic or not?
Best
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine May 08, 2009 08:54AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Guys
We did a lot of experimenting on water suspended lubracants and graphite is one of the few that will take the temperature,however it will seperate and lay in the bottom and plug things up. Di water works very well must be clean..... clean.... I think Bill G did some experiments in this area also.
Harry
We did a lot of experimenting on water suspended lubracants and graphite is one of the few that will take the temperature,however it will seperate and lay in the bottom and plug things up. Di water works very well must be clean..... clean.... I think Bill G did some experiments in this area also.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine May 10, 2009 10:02PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,249 |
Harry,
You are still using the Peek material or something similar for piston rings, aren't you? What is the maximum cylinder wall temperatures you are seeing with this?
With the 1,200 deg. or higher inlet steam then the cylinder walls would have to be cooled and I believe this is what the regeneration section does, isn't it? For water to hydro dynamically lubricate the rings then the cylinder walls would have to be also below the steam saturation temperature or else they would be running dry.
The Peek material seems to take cylinder wall temperatures comparable to that of the better oils, or around 650 deg F. If that is wrong Harry please correct the working temperature range, if you would.
I was investigating the use of boric acid as a lubricant and also as just an oil additive. It seems to be able to coat metallic surfaces just as a hydrolyzed state which is like a coating of talcum powder and is very slippery and when mixed with oil or water it puts a good anti rust coating on the steel parts. I had a jar of steel washers and things sitting in a mix of water and boric acid for some time without any show of rust. After a couple of years though it all started rusting for some reason, so something changed. It "might" be a good anti rust additive for a boiler as I think it "might not" hurt the superheater or the engine. I'd experiment with some really cheap equipment on this one first just to see what happens.
Best Regards, ------ Bill G.
You are still using the Peek material or something similar for piston rings, aren't you? What is the maximum cylinder wall temperatures you are seeing with this?
With the 1,200 deg. or higher inlet steam then the cylinder walls would have to be cooled and I believe this is what the regeneration section does, isn't it? For water to hydro dynamically lubricate the rings then the cylinder walls would have to be also below the steam saturation temperature or else they would be running dry.
The Peek material seems to take cylinder wall temperatures comparable to that of the better oils, or around 650 deg F. If that is wrong Harry please correct the working temperature range, if you would.
I was investigating the use of boric acid as a lubricant and also as just an oil additive. It seems to be able to coat metallic surfaces just as a hydrolyzed state which is like a coating of talcum powder and is very slippery and when mixed with oil or water it puts a good anti rust coating on the steel parts. I had a jar of steel washers and things sitting in a mix of water and boric acid for some time without any show of rust. After a couple of years though it all started rusting for some reason, so something changed. It "might" be a good anti rust additive for a boiler as I think it "might not" hurt the superheater or the engine. I'd experiment with some really cheap equipment on this one first just to see what happens.
Best Regards, ------ Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine May 10, 2009 10:37PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 83 |
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Re: cyclone engine May 11, 2009 09:25AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Bill
Did you test for seperation under temperature as the water is geting lighter as it expands and the solids tend to fall out no mater how much the homogination is used. this has been my experiance. the cylinders are hoter at the top than they are at the bottom they cannot hold the same as the expanding steam is cooling. Prof Stumpf also had little concern in cylinder temperature it is the heads and the top of the piston that have the longest expoisure in a high rpm engine. We use a compition of 3 different materials in the piston rings.
HI Ernie,
We are testing all kinds of materials every day some times a break through Hope you visit soon.
Thanks
Harry
Did you test for seperation under temperature as the water is geting lighter as it expands and the solids tend to fall out no mater how much the homogination is used. this has been my experiance. the cylinders are hoter at the top than they are at the bottom they cannot hold the same as the expanding steam is cooling. Prof Stumpf also had little concern in cylinder temperature it is the heads and the top of the piston that have the longest expoisure in a high rpm engine. We use a compition of 3 different materials in the piston rings.
HI Ernie,
We are testing all kinds of materials every day some times a break through Hope you visit soon.
Thanks
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine May 11, 2009 06:18PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,249 |
Harry,
If you get a chance to test it, throw a bit of antimony in the piston ring composition. Antimony makes carbon rings much more slidy in oil less air compressors. Who knows? How is the the Peek mix working for the rings anyway? Is it good enough, or hoping for an improvement?
Kinda like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Best Regards, ------ Bill G.
If you get a chance to test it, throw a bit of antimony in the piston ring composition. Antimony makes carbon rings much more slidy in oil less air compressors. Who knows? How is the the Peek mix working for the rings anyway? Is it good enough, or hoping for an improvement?
Kinda like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Best Regards, ------ Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine May 12, 2009 09:58AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine May 31, 2009 04:33PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 83 |
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Re: cyclone engine June 02, 2009 12:29PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Ernie
Not a glitch just normal R@D and debugging. The WHE is being run for extended periods and we have learned ways to increase the operating temperature which will reduce the water rater and the efficency. Also streamlining manufacturing techniques.
It has to be right before it is released. It is looking real good.
Harry
Not a glitch just normal R@D and debugging. The WHE is being run for extended periods and we have learned ways to increase the operating temperature which will reduce the water rater and the efficency. Also streamlining manufacturing techniques.
It has to be right before it is released. It is looking real good.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine June 20, 2009 04:44PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine June 20, 2009 06:06PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
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Re: cyclone engine June 23, 2009 08:26AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Thanks Peter
We are going to DC this morning as Frankie is giving a speach at Alternative Energy for Defence. There is a lot of intest in the Cyclone stuff. the main topic will be on the EATR project which is a WHE generator running on biomass the whole system including the the biomass fuel hopper fits in a 3' cube. power output is far better than first thought.
Our good friend Jim Cramk iis going in for a heart valve. We wish him well He is very confident that he has a very good Dr. He did not have to wait as long as Howard did ....two weeks is better than 2 years.
Harry
We are going to DC this morning as Frankie is giving a speach at Alternative Energy for Defence. There is a lot of intest in the Cyclone stuff. the main topic will be on the EATR project which is a WHE generator running on biomass the whole system including the the biomass fuel hopper fits in a 3' cube. power output is far better than first thought.
Our good friend Jim Cramk iis going in for a heart valve. We wish him well He is very confident that he has a very good Dr. He did not have to wait as long as Howard did ....two weeks is better than 2 years.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine June 23, 2009 12:38PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 180 |
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Re: cyclone engine June 24, 2009 04:15PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Hi Harry, ya that stuff with adevent is pretty interesting. Im working with a solicitation myself. Ever since the new admin, scrapped the Utah storage facility, we've been having some difficulties. What did you say, 30,000 operating hours for one of your engines. That's pretty good. I cant wait to get the de-briefing on Frankie's presentation.
Cheer's
Jeremy
Cheer's
Jeremy
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Re: cyclone engine June 24, 2009 07:09PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Harry,
Neat stuff! Biofuel is the way to go! Wishing you every success. Last year I had to wait 2 months just for a check-up at the doctor's (nothing serious), and that's paying cash. Thanks for the news on Jim; was wondering why we haven't heard from him in a while. If you're reading this Jim, get well soon!
Peter
Neat stuff! Biofuel is the way to go! Wishing you every success. Last year I had to wait 2 months just for a check-up at the doctor's (nothing serious), and that's paying cash. Thanks for the news on Jim; was wondering why we haven't heard from him in a while. If you're reading this Jim, get well soon!
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine June 26, 2009 05:29PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 83 |
Hi Harry!
Great job on the website!
Say, I was watching one of those real life drama shows on driving truck in Alaska the other night. I had kind of forgotten how much braking was done through the compression of the diesel engine and shifting to lower gears.(especially in the mountains) If someday we have Cyclone engines in semi trucks, will the compression of the Cyclone be able to be used in a similar way as they do in the trucks today for braking?
Hope you had an enjoyable trip to DC. I talked to several SH's this week and they are all on the edge of their seats wondering how it went. LOL! Hope you have a great weekend! I'm not leaving the dang house... It feels like Florida outside! What was I thinking, when I complained about cold.. LOL!
Best, Ernie
Great job on the website!
Say, I was watching one of those real life drama shows on driving truck in Alaska the other night. I had kind of forgotten how much braking was done through the compression of the diesel engine and shifting to lower gears.(especially in the mountains) If someday we have Cyclone engines in semi trucks, will the compression of the Cyclone be able to be used in a similar way as they do in the trucks today for braking?
Hope you had an enjoyable trip to DC. I talked to several SH's this week and they are all on the edge of their seats wondering how it went. LOL! Hope you have a great weekend! I'm not leaving the dang house... It feels like Florida outside! What was I thinking, when I complained about cold.. LOL!
Best, Ernie
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Re: cyclone engine June 28, 2009 01:51PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Guys
The trip went very well and Frankie did an excelent speeking job as she is always well prepared. There was a felloow talking about a method of water extraction from the alges/ excelent. the military seams to have algea as a top priority as the fuel of the future. Just got back and need a breather so will up date you some more later.
The trip went very well and Frankie did an excelent speeking job as she is always well prepared. There was a felloow talking about a method of water extraction from the alges/ excelent. the military seams to have algea as a top priority as the fuel of the future. Just got back and need a breather so will up date you some more later.
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Re: cyclone engine June 28, 2009 02:16PM |
Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 12 |
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Re: cyclone engine June 29, 2009 11:47PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 83 |
Hi Harry
I think I found the company with the algae dewatering.. WOW!!! The chart on their website, showing comparison of processing costs, is enough to make me drop over from sticker shock! LOL!
Is this new process going to affect the direction we take as a company. At that low price/barrel, I could see the old guard ICE boys, trying to hold on to their dinosaur technology and just adding more garbage to try and cut pollution, if the oil can be produced that cheaply. If Cyclone and this new algae innovation, manage to go down this road together, our world sure could get nicer in a hurry!
Best, Ernie
I think I found the company with the algae dewatering.. WOW!!! The chart on their website, showing comparison of processing costs, is enough to make me drop over from sticker shock! LOL!
Is this new process going to affect the direction we take as a company. At that low price/barrel, I could see the old guard ICE boys, trying to hold on to their dinosaur technology and just adding more garbage to try and cut pollution, if the oil can be produced that cheaply. If Cyclone and this new algae innovation, manage to go down this road together, our world sure could get nicer in a hurry!
Best, Ernie
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Re: cyclone engine June 30, 2009 05:24AM |
Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 12 |
Be sure to check out link Below for 6/30/09 Cyclone WHE Tests..Way to Go Harry and Cyclone Team
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: cyclone engine July 03, 2009 07:37AM |
Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 12 |
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