Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile Recent Messages

Advanced

cyclone engine

Posted by Harry Schoell 
Re: cyclone engine
December 12, 2006 01:53PM
Hi Harry and Bill.

Acetone isn't a very good fuel. But in small amounts it allows water soluable fuels like isopropyl and methanal to mix with oil base fuels. Doesn't take but a drop or so per 5 gal mix.

There are many diferent O2 sensers. Automotive types are designed for gasoline. If you wont to speend the money $300+ for an O2 senser you cen find one that works with most anything.

Automotive O2 sensers also have to be up to temperature to work corectly. Some have heaters. I have wondered what would be best for a boiler. An on/off controle I am sure would require a heated type with a temperature sensor. But with a continuasly variable firng rate, I wonder if one could use a cheaper non heated type.

Andy
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
December 13, 2006 12:10PM
Hi Andy
thanks for the info on the blending and the sensors. We are not using a variable fireing rate but a constant with an on-off temp control.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
February 12, 2007 12:20AM
Hello Harry, I'm a new member to this forum. I've read everything on your website regarding the cyclone engine. I
find it impressive. However, I have a few questions to help me understand better the operation of the cyclone engine:
1) How does your engine accomplish full expansion using 3200psi? - I see no mention of any compounding. Or is it, as in an IC engine, simply the expansion ('explosion'?) of a tiny burst of high pressure steam (well, maybe an injection of super-critical water) controlled by a throttle?
2) Is it a fact that all the condensation of the exhausted steam occurs within a condenser (be it a rotating one) contained within the confines of the small body of the engine?
3) I assume the engine is a 'uniflow' design, with power only on the 'down stroke' (or is it the 'upstroke')?
4) I am assuming that the blower and fuel feed pump are run by auxiliary electric motors. Am I right?

I think I can understand the operation of your engine better if I consider it as a variation on the 2-stroke diesel, with a super-critical fluid being injected into the cylinder at top dead centre (or thereabouts) instead of fuel. Of course, there should be no need for compression on the return stroke. The heat regeneration, exhaust condensation, fuel pump and air blower would be additions not found in the diesel - or at least not in the same form.

Of course, if any of the information is proprietary, I apologise for asking.

Bill W

HLS
Re: cyclone engine
February 13, 2007 09:49AM
HI Bill W,
I will try to answer most questions as about a dozen patents are in place.we some times refer to the engine as a ranken/diesel/carnot engine to make it easer to understand. It is a two stroke engine with uniflow exaust.
at low speed it has a compression tube that allowes the residule compression to be readmited to the combustion chamber as a reheat. at this point there is a retarded valve lift with a long duration so as to have admission overlap the admission of the next cylinder. this allows a very high starting touque and the compression is not a loss as it is reheated.(rankin) It does not have a throttle valve but the valve lift is the throttle. As the RPM is increased the cam advances the valve opening and the duration of this is shortened and the compression incresases, decreasing the clearance volume.(diesel) The condencer is a series of flat plates,they donot rotate,where air is forced around the outside and into another heat exchanger then to the combustion chamber that burns fuel in a centrifuge then then goes through the flat coil heat exchanger then exits throuht the center. this gas then heats the outer air heat exchangers. The water from the feed pump, drawing from the condencer pan, pumps to a heat exchanger coil around each cylinders ports where this goes into the center of the heat exchanger.(carnot)
Harry
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
February 13, 2007 04:04PM
grafic air and water flow chart
Harry
Attachments:
open | download - Air Flow Water Flow Chart.pdf (89.6 KB)
Re: cyclone engine
February 22, 2007 09:29AM
Hi Harry.

What experance have you had with stainless. Previously you said that you tried 304 and 316 types and saw little differance.

Have you tried any higher temp alloys.

I noticed a problem with 304 and 304H operatoring in the 425-860C range. Notice aqueous corrosion resistance.

Good oxidation resistance in intermittent service to 870°C and in continuous service to 925°C. Continuous use of 304 in the 425-860°C range is not recommended if subsequent aqueous corrosion resistance is important. Grade 304L is more resistant to carbide precipitation and can be heated into the above temperature range.

Grade 304H has higher strength at elevated temperatures so is often used for structural and pressure-containing applications at temperatures above about 500°C and up to about 800°C. 304H will become sensitised in the temperature range of 425-860°C; this is not a problem for high temperature applications, but will result in reduced aqueous corrosion resistance.

Have you used types 321 or 347. They higher stringth then 304 or 316.

Andy
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
February 22, 2007 12:56PM
Hi Andy.
Water and alloys play a large roll in the system. Don't use use distilled water from your local grocery store as it containes ozone, bad mistake. The only thing we use is de-ionized water. It is the only way to operate at supercritical. Early SC boilers with small tubes would fail as they would plug with a salt deposit and burn out. Even the atomic subs use de-ionized water. of course you have to have a total closed loop system, donot fill up at the local horse trough. With this we have had no problems. We could write a book on this alone.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
February 22, 2007 04:47PM
Hi all,

Ive gotten excellent results at supercritical with 316L using distilled water. Any supercritical application is going to be super-sensitive to dissolved solids, Ive never seen the pitting. I always heat-transfer to the 316L with silver solder, this saturates the 316L with heat real nicely. The bond(see-beck junction) of the dissimilar metals causes a corrisive anode protection(like protective zinc's on an outboard motor) , that causes the silver to oxidize on contact with the fire. Lately my heat exchanger's have been copper-silver solder-copper. But im not running at supercritical conditions anymore (lately).

Jeremy
Re: cyclone engine
February 23, 2007 05:28PM
For what its worth,

I use a silver redox process on my stainless heatexchangers, after there cleaned and pickled. Its alot more practical than coating with silver solder. Leaves an ultra thin coating of 99.9% chemically pure ag. Discussing heatexchanger weight/thickness with Harry on the phone before, he made some good points with btu battery effect with the thicker assemblies. I agree. Its like keeping a heavy flywheel at speed. I know Harry has made some great strides with respect to composites and such with his complete engine design. Just wanted to touch on possible advantages of surface treatment with respect to the heat exchangers themselves, regardless of the stainless used.

Jeremy
Re: cyclone engine
February 23, 2007 05:51PM
Something more,

On aluminum, I have recently come up with a copper/sapphire coating that I use for battery plates. If you have any aluminum 'heatexchangers' You'd like to experiment with this type of coating let me know Harry(call me). The surface finish is rough/sandblasted and flat-black in color. Adhesion is excellent thru thermal-shock. I can provide a sample that you can test of 6063 or 4043 and 5356.

Jeremy
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
February 24, 2007 10:59AM
Thanks for the info see you on tuesday
Harry
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
March 12, 2007 10:27AM
Cyclone Update
There has been a lot of intensive work on pumps and fuel injecters
A great deal of progress as has been made as we now can pump 190f water at 4000psi at 7000 rpm and it was not easy.
This morning we were able to despence solid fuel through our fuel injector. Coal or wood flower about the same consistancy talcoum powder. As with all the liquid fuels, even the heavy ones, and the powdered fuels, they are more of a gas cloud. The engine is the easy part it is all of the other things that are tough.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
March 12, 2007 12:30PM
Harry,

Absolutely Amazing!

Didn't realize the pump would be such a challenge. Is the solid fuel dry or in a slurry?

Best -------- Bill G.
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
March 12, 2007 01:37PM
Hi Bill,
The fuel is dry using a switch over to go from gas to liquid to solid powdered fuelin one injector. We are very pleased about the preliminarys. Every thing is a challange. We have been over two years in developement and the first two cylinder engine was run in four mounths from start. Again the engine is the easy part.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
March 12, 2007 02:58PM
Hi Harry,

I hope I can get my "easy Part" off the drafting table and going soon then. LOL

Best --- Bill G.
Re: cyclone engine
April 18, 2007 06:30PM
Harry, you hav no idea of me or my background so let us begin by informing you that I am 70 and a retired Pan Am Captain who is a successful inventor with enginering contacts. I have zero fiscal interest in what I am posting here for you as my patented technologies are in the marine antifouling art field; however, I had ongoing technical discussions with MagnaPlate Corp. of New Jersey as my closest friend was related to Doc Covino, the late founder. Doc and his company have the best expertise in the nation for coating materials to resist high temperatures and corrosion as proven by their applicagtions used by NSA, Boeing and all the big names. If you have a corrosion problem, wear problem or a related problem with say bearings, Doc's comapny is the one place to go for true cuting edge expertise.

My fondness for Live Steam ( ahem ) goes back to the "Lucky Super Seven" days and as an affectionado, I wish you much successes.

Cordially, Graham C. Andoe / Overbore
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
April 23, 2007 12:25PM
Hi Graham
We need all the help we can get Many thanks to you Please keep in contact
Harry
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
April 25, 2007 03:29PM
Hi Friends,
We had a great show in Detroit, Here are some pics of the weedeater and the lawnmower. will show pics of the show when I get them.
Harry


Re: cyclone engine
April 25, 2007 08:42PM
Harry those are neat.

A steam powered weed-eater, Who'd a thunk it. Are they quiet??

Best Regards ------- Bill G.
Re: cyclone engine
April 26, 2007 07:07AM
Harry, GeneralMagnaPlate is your one stop answer even for corrosion proofing stainless ( perhaps Nedox) --yes rocket engines also. 1-800-441-6173 Cordially, Graham
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
April 26, 2007 12:36PM
Hi Bill
Yes they are real quiet....they are mockups However they are scalled down versions of the 2 cyl generator motor. they are designed to run on propane. No gas and oil to fool around with. buy it at K Mart, plug it in, turn it on, touch the igniter button wait 10sec and pull the rip coard. Gas engines are not leagal in Calf shortly.
Thanks Graham will call
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
April 26, 2007 01:34PM
Hi Harry,

What I sincerely hope and pray for is that your quiet little engines will be manditory in those leaf blowers. The smoke and noise from those things is way over the top.

Any advantages to a three cylinder configuration for the smaller to mid range engines?

Best Regards ------ Bill G.
Re: cyclone engine
April 26, 2007 02:23PM
Harry, respectfully suggest you use your company name and contact as their products are geared for the serious companies. Graham
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
April 26, 2007 04:07PM
Hi Bill,
I personaly like the 6cyl only it cost more to produce. We have a small 6cyl design for the millitary. I t is a small compact unit to fit in the Abrams, Bradley, and the Stryker. It is a small common 10kw generator to fit in a 12"x12"x17" space. Of course every thing is a compromise.


We will be on Speed television about the show in detroit please watch


Sunday, April 29 @ 7am.EST
Wed May 2 @ 10:30 am EST

Thanks again Graham
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
April 27, 2007 06:21PM
Hi Harry,

Im cururious about something, on your pic PDR_1247.JPG

Is that clear white tube with cap and 2 alu struts in the front, some sort of water level indicator?

If so, are you employing some sort of 100% water recovery with the cyclone engine, thru its internal condencer?

MAN, that would probably would have the smallest IR footprint of any engine system I've ever seen.

Neat...

Jeremy
Re: cyclone engine
April 27, 2007 09:33PM
Harry, we are here to help each other. cordially, Graham
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
April 28, 2007 11:51AM
Hi Jeremy,
Yes that is a water level gauge it is teflon tubing and it is a total closed loop system. The weed eater has a small built in water tank so as the engine can work in the operating position. These engines donot have all the heat regeneration of the larger engines because of the economies of scale. Of course these are non operational engines however there are built to an operational design. Propane was used to make it clean as well as very simple.
Harry

HLS
Re: cyclone engine
April 29, 2007 01:59PM
sorry Guys
We were told that the interview was to be shown today I guess the pannel descussion with the Canadian auto union pres ran over... oh mum. They showed a small part of the show exibiters, however we were still the busiest booth. We will try to get a copy of the interview and run it on the web site.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
April 30, 2007 05:16PM
Hi Harry,

Sweet, I was hopeing that was your water level gauge.

Are you preheating any combustion air with your system? Seems you have the de-air problem solved with your makeup water, what is the cycle time?

Jeremy
Re: cyclone engine
April 30, 2007 06:20PM
Harry,

I have need for a small propulsion system, possibly propane fuled, that will power a prototype pair of small military crawlers that will carry only about 165# and move at a normal walking pace, about 4mph. The crawlers could be electric powered---and will climb stairs.

I know you just have "dozens on the shelf" but if your experimental developments have produced a technical thread that could be developed into some working concepts I would be glad to work with you under a Non Disclosure Agreement or Gentlemen's Agreement- your choice. PLease e-mail me and we will discuss further. Cordially, Graham
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.
All files from this thread

File Name File Size   Posted by Date  
blower 1 cyclone.jpg 152.2 KB open | download HLS 04/01/2005 Read message
PDR_0680.jpg 193.6 KB open | download HLS 04/06/2005 Read message
Pdr_0683.jpg 151.8 KB open | download HLS 04/06/2005 Read message
PDR_0690.jpg 84.3 KB open | download HLS 04/22/2005 Read message
PDR_0695.jpg 103.8 KB open | download HLS 04/22/2005 Read message
condencer 5 iso.jpg 182.7 KB open | download HLS 05/06/2005 Read message
condencer 5 pro.jpg 221 KB open | download HLS 05/06/2005 Read message
rotocon1.jpg 162 KB open | download Peter Brow 05/07/2005 Read message
rotocon2.jpg 177.6 KB open | download Peter Brow 05/07/2005 Read message
vtubecon1.jpg 182 KB open | download Peter Brow 05/07/2005 Read message
generator coil 2.jpg 639.6 KB open | download HLS 05/22/2005 Read message
MARK II SECTION VIEWS.jpg 61.9 KB open | download HLS 06/03/2005 Read message
PISTONS OUT OF BLOCK.jpg 492.8 KB open | download HLS 06/14/2005 Read message
PISTONS IN BLOCK.jpg 102.2 KB open | download HLS 06/14/2005 Read message
scan.jpg 521.8 KB open | download HLS 06/21/2005 Read message
Picture.jpg 520.7 KB open | download HLS 07/08/2005 Read message
PDR_0711.JPG 95.6 KB open | download HLS 07/13/2005 Read message
PDR_0728.JPG 142.5 KB open | download HLS 08/04/2005 Read message
PDR_0731 fire box.JPG 162 KB open | download HLS 08/04/2005 Read message
PDR_0727.JPG 95.2 KB open | download HLS 08/04/2005 Read message
efficency.jpg 164.4 KB open | download HLS 08/06/2005 Read message
MARK V COLOR SMALL.jpg 11.1 KB open | download HLS 08/19/2005 Read message
6 CYLINDER.JPG 143.6 KB open | download Frankie 10/10/2005 Read message
6 CYLINDER VIEW 2.JPG 147.9 KB open | download Frankie 10/10/2005 Read message
stand.jpg 370.9 KB open | download HLS 11/15/2005 Read message
G G MOM.jpg 85.5 KB open | download HLS 11/28/2005 Read message
Mark II Pump.JPG 167.1 KB open | download HLS 01/20/2006 Read message
Mark II pump test in drill press.JPG 163.1 KB open | download HLS 01/20/2006 Read message
Mark II Boiler COMPRESSED.jpg 283.7 KB open | download HLS 02/08/2006 Read message
CopyofIMG_0118.JPG 27.3 KB open | download HLS 02/28/2006 Read message
IMG_0116.JPG 27.1 KB open | download HLS 02/28/2006 Read message
IMG_0117.JPG 21.7 KB open | download HLS 02/28/2006 Read message
GraphicAirFlow.jpg 142.4 KB open | download HLS 04/25/2006 Read message
GraphicWaterFlow.jpg 210.2 KB open | download HLS 04/25/2006 Read message
M 5 cut B-w.tif 505 KB open | download HLS 04/25/2006 Read message
Graphic Air Flow text removed.jpg 263.5 KB open | download HLS 06/05/2006 Read message
Graphic Water Flow text removed.jpg 304 KB open | download HLS 06/05/2006 Read message
IMG_0117.JPG 21.7 KB open | download HLS 06/21/2006 Read message
10KW generator.jpg 194 KB open | download HLS 06/21/2006 Read message
IMG_0116.JPG 27.1 KB open | download HLS 06/21/2006 Read message
CopyofIMG_0118.JPG 27.3 KB open | download HLS 06/21/2006 Read message
car-closed.jpg 88 KB open | download HLS 09/08/2006 Read message
car-open.jpg 95.8 KB open | download HLS 09/08/2006 Read message
Truckopen.jpg 97.7 KB open | download HLS 09/08/2006 Read message
PDR_1106.JPG 259.1 KB open | download HLS 12/09/2006 Read message
PDR_1112.JPG 270.2 KB open | download HLS 12/09/2006 Read message
Air Flow Water Flow Chart.pdf 89.6 KB open | download HLS 02/13/2007 Read message
PDR_1247.JPG 743.4 KB open | download HLS 04/25/2007 Read message
PDR_1255.JPG 244.3 KB open | download HLS 04/25/2007 Read message
Burner drawing-2.JPG 48.5 KB open | download Rolly 08/16/2007 Read message
P1010101a.JPG 81.3 KB open | download Rolly 08/16/2007 Read message
test three.JPG 63.2 KB open | download Rolly 08/16/2007 Read message
firebox.jpg 47.7 KB open | download Andy 08/17/2007 Read message
boiler.jpg 56.7 KB open | download Andy 08/17/2007 Read message
coilstack.jpg 134 KB open | download Andy 08/17/2007 Read message
SolarHouseModel(1).pdf 187.8 KB open | download HLS 11/28/2007 Read message
PICT0637meeting.jpg 53.7 KB open | download HLS 02/06/2008 Read message
PICT0637meeting.jpg 53.7 KB open | download HLS 02/06/2008 Read message
PICT0642meeting.jpg 56.7 KB open | download HLS 02/06/2008 Read message
PICT0644meeting.jpg 53.9 KB open | download HLS 02/06/2008 Read message
PICT0646meeting.jpg 58.4 KB open | download HLS 02/06/2008 Read message
011608dX.jpg 44.9 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 02/08/2008 Read message
0825075z.jpg 45.4 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 02/08/2008 Read message
010408c.jpg 40 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 02/12/2008 Read message
010408d.jpg 41.7 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 02/12/2008 Read message
010408e.jpg 36.2 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 02/12/2008 Read message
010408f.jpg 9.6 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 02/12/2008 Read message
L912-9.jpg 11.7 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 02/16/2008 Read message
Mathcad - CriticalLiquidGas.pdf 26.3 KB open | download Andy 03/18/2008 Read message
car-closed.jpg 88 KB open | download HLS 06/05/2008 Read message
WHE combustion tester.jpg 338 KB open | download HLS 02/28/2009 Read message
WHE heat exchanger engine test#1.jpg 523.1 KB open | download HLS 02/28/2009 Read message
081909a.jpg 25.3 KB open | download Jeremy Holmes 08/19/2009 Read message