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cyclone engine

Posted by Harry Schoell 
Re: cyclone engine
January 24, 2009 02:06PM
When I first sent the articles to Cyclone I thought it would would be great for the rings and cylinder walls along, with the already stated bearings for the generator part of the engine. It might cut the costs if it were possible to use steel coated with BAM instead of the fancy aluminum in the cases of the larger engines..
Ernie
Re: cyclone engine
January 24, 2009 02:17PM
Hello,

As I recall the boron oxide powder loses it's lubricity at around 700 deg or so, maybe less, because it dehydrates. I wonder if the Bam coating would extend this temperature range.

Best, -- Bill G.
Re: cyclone engine
January 24, 2009 04:39PM
Hi Harry- saw a interesting article on a low voltage electric field generating device that attaches to the fuel line that reduces fuel droplet size by an order of magnitude increasing burn efficiency, would I be correct in assuming that a device like this would have no effect on your engine because your engine already burns fuel so completely.
Re: cyclone engine
January 24, 2009 09:43PM
Hi Bill
In one of the articles I read they said they were planning on using it for drill bits. When I was a kid I used to get my dads bits pretty red. LOL! I don't know... Maybe too much to hope for. But if it would stand the heat, there would be a wide range of new possibilities. What do you think the low end steam heat cutoff for the Cyclones would be? I think it is 2300 degrees for the burn chamber, but the steam isn't actually getting that hot is it, when it enters the cylinders? TIA! Ernie
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 09:33AM
Hi Billy
I think at least 20years ago I saw some experments where they were blending water with diesel to run in a diesel engine using a similar process.,,,,, it seemed to disapear into the night like other good things. o well.. Partical size is not a problen in our injector as a good ox mix is, and partical size has to also mix and the ox comes from the out side of the partical in injected juel. In our system air draws and mixes with the air. We are very pleased with this and at this point this is a finised experiment ready for product. Thanks for the heads up.
Harry
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 09:42AM
Hi Ernie,
What you are talking about is a good idea, however most ceramic coatings have a water base adhivese and will survive in a flame , fuel inviroment but not in steam or water. Solid ceranics survive under compression loads but are poor in tenshion so mechanical fasteners are difficult to deal with, also thermal shock as an issue. We are working on these issues. Thanks
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 11:46AM
Hi Harry,

I noticed that the impeller in the condenser is directly driven by the engine. No rpm step up. What happens if the cyclone is in the situation of high output and very low rpm? It does not look the impeller would spin fast enough to compress the steam to the plate for condensation.

Max.
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 01:46PM
Hi Max
The longest cutoff is only 34% and the lube pump will blow cooling water into the steam flow. The air blowers do the cooling and are electric. The btu expelled is the highest at max RPM the long cuttoff gradualy blends in to a max 5% at 1000 rpm to full throttel so steam output does not exceed condencing capability. The long cutoff is for exceleration and is for a short time. That is why of 6 cylinders to get a short cutoff when starting. We did a lot of testing to get this right. Longer cutoff increases the water rate. more cylinders decreases this but the engine parts count go up.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 03:12PM
If I understand it correctly, there is a control mechanism which maintains "rpm to cuttoff". Am I correct on this?
Max.
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 03:36PM
Hi Max
The control for cuttoff is a pump that lifts the tapered cam up the shaft to shorten cutoff. The rpm is the control as it is a bleed off system and can be controled automaticaly or even by computer if a need to complicate the system need arise. The compression is also controled this way as the rpm increasses the compression will increase. compression is a dynamic efficency. It works well when using the piston mass. It does negitive work at low speed. It is easy to dial in as it too is a bleed off system. It too can be complicated by a computer.
In todays modern world if the door was just invented the means to close it would be computer controled with relays proximity sensors transistors when all it needed was a doornob. I like the KISS method.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 06:29PM
Thanks Harry!

That makes sense! I think when I read that the coating was only 2-3 microns thick, and applied with a laser, I assumed it was more like a thin metalic weld, than a ceramic coating.

An updated article from the inventors of BAM, is supposedly due out before the end of January. The last I heard, they now have several versions of the stuff by adding titanium and other metals to the original discovery. I know it sure got my imagination fired up when I first read about it! Thanks again!
Ernie
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 07:41PM
Harry,

Does the Cyclone have engine braking similar to an IC engine?

Thanks, Bill G.
Re: cyclone engine
January 26, 2009 09:11PM

Doesn't the cyclone have a single switch that makes the whole thing run in reverse? In that sense, I guess it does have breaking. However, I think the break of the IC engines comes from the gear box.
Max
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 09:20AM
Hi Bill
These engines coast when you shut them down. We developed new water lube bearings that have reduced engine hp friction from 5.5hp to 3.5hp.on the MK 5. We are jumping up and down with this developement as it helps the efficency and the life of the engine. This engine can not be as good as, it has to be better than.
I would like to see breaking through some type of regeneration of sorts as other wise it is lost energy. We have plans in that area however they are not developed as yet. Too much other going on.
Hi Max
Reversing the engine is a simple mater as a mechanical lever, it changes the valve timing on the long cutoff portion of the cam. In reverse the engine will not go in to short cuttoff and RPM is limited to 1000rpm did not feel that was a problem. For fast engine breaking reversing the engine would slow it down. The Cyclone does not have a gear box as such as it has a longer power band than older engines had.3600rpm as opposed to 2000 and 6cyl instead of 4 giving a smoother start with a shorter cuttoff. Maybe in a heavy haul truck a 2 speed could be used but I donnot see it in a car.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 11:33AM
Bill-Harry,

Not actually desirable. A two speed with neutral is a very nice advantage.
Warm it up before starting and one other very good reason. When climbing hills in traffic or caught in heavy traffic where you are starting and stopping all the time before going ahead, the situation exists that the steam engine is using a lot of steam when starting up, long cutoff; but the water pump is going slowly, so it is really easy to get a dry boiler, especially one with minimum water content, no pressure as the thing is in overheat and the burner is shut off, and you are STUCK. I had this happen with the Doble several times. Most embarrassing!

Sorry Harry; but a two speed with neutral is simply too great an advantage to ignore. Having to jack up a Stanley's wheel, or driving very slowly in a Doble for five miles so you are sure all the water is out and the engine is warmed up is ridiculous and not in keeping of what a modern steam car should be. Or stuck and having to motor the Doble's auxiliary unit to pump water while in the middle of the street with everyone honking at you. All those years with my steamers and Beslers too, showed what a two speed offers to be an unassailable advantage, my White showed this in no uncertain terms.
You don't HAVE to use it in normal driving; but it is there when you certainly do need it. It is simply essential.

Reversing for braking is possible; but very dangerous to the engine. It is now a compressor pushing up against a closed throttle, so high heat buildup is what instantly happens. Also the possibility of sucking water from the exhaust line and blowing out a cylinder or two.
F-30 had this happen on a tour and the crankcase was literally torn in half, I have the photos.

Regeneration is a nice fuzzy feeling idea; but the added hardware, complication, cost and weight are just not worth the effort. Put the time into minimizing any heat losses.
Concentrating on high net efficiency and use bio-fuels will be enough to make the new system seen as being desirable. The clean burning of any liquid fuel is a huge advantage when you realize what a cost saving it will be. No added pollution control hardware and now no eight speed automatic transmission and computer controls.

Jim
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 04:50PM
I have the same concern as Jim. One thing I still can't figure out is that how the condenser handles when climbing up a hill(say mount washington) on a steep road for an extended period of time (an hour). Compressive condensing is not going to work since that impeller is directly driven by the engine and it would be at very low rpm. I have no problem when the engine run fast; but just in those slow and high power situations, I am afraid it will require some external power for that compressive condenser to work properly.

Harry,
In a situation like this. How long does it take for the tank to empty?
Max.
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 06:47PM
Jim,

Is the Doble auxilarry pumping engine manualy engaged?

I have read that since it is almost never used in general practice that when it IS required it is cold and eats steam without pumping much water, that is uses more steam to pump water then when it is hot.

The issues that you described are exactly why in my design ALL of the air/fuel/water pumping is done with a direct acting coumpound engine and with the direct geared drive engines(front and rear) there are seperate slide type exhaust vavles at the bottem of the horizontal cylinders. This arrangement, along with the capacity for a very long exhaust cutoff, even with a short intake cutoff, should remove the chance of any condensed water retention. Not to mention the in head slide inlet vavles, for a direct steam passage, small clearance and the ultimate in overpressure relief.

Also the capacity to start off in simple mode, which seems to be a major concern with a compound, that is warming up the second or third stage etc. with steam used by the HP cylinder(s).

For an system that drives the water and fuel pumps direct from the drive engine, couldn't there just be a second set, or auxilarry water pump added that is generally bypassed under normal usage and only feeds water when the level falls to a certain amount? Such as when mounting a long and tall hill.

Harry,

With the MK 5, under what power output is the 3 1/2 hp required for engine friction? Also, is that 3 1/2 hp the totality of the water, air and fuel being pumped for the power plant?

Glad to hear that you are still making progress and refining the system even more.

On the computer controlled aspect of things, now a days it is hard to find a public restroom that doesn't have electricly controled faucets and hand drying aparatus, in some countries the water closets are also electric controled, some here too(USA). . .

Not to mention the "automatic" doors at almost all grocery stores, which I almost always run into, need to slow down they say. . .LOL

Caleb Ramsby
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 07:05PM
Hi Guys,

Speaking of adding a transmission to a steam engine, as mine would benefit from a three speed with reverse, neutral and park, would a clutch and planetary system necessarily need a slush box?

I recall that my old Packard had an overdrive unit which didn't use the clutch to shift but was wired to the ignition somehow. At least in moving into overdrive the thing would cut the ignition and let the RPMs drop to a range it could shift in without grinding gears. I think a more modern system could shift to momentary neutral and adjust the engine RPM to complete the shift.

Up shifting though could be a problem with an engine that coasts.

A lower RPM steam engine has a lot of torque. How do we design a good transmission for one?

Best,--- Bill G.
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 08:11PM
Bill,

What type of engine placement/configuration are you planing on?

Under the hood with the drive shaft in line with the chasis going to the rear wheels, or going to the front wheels, Stanley/Doble type geared to differential?

This has a major impact on the room for the transmission.

The planetary type of gear box is much stronger then the spur gear type and with it's clutchs should be much easier then the standard type.

Another option is to have the gear change in the differential. . .

Caleb Ramsby
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 08:33PM
Hi Bill,

It's been years since I've ridden and tinkered with snomobiles, and I don't know if they still have the same type drive trains as they used to, but it always seemed to me that the V-belt centrifical clutch setup they used was very simple, clever, and efficient. I often wondered why no one ever tried to use one in a car after kevlar and tough rubber compounds became readily available for the V-belts, and better metals became available for clutch springs. As I remember, they even had reverse in some of the old Evinrude sleds, because they were so heavy. This was back in late 60's early 70's.

Take care! Ernie
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 08:39PM
Max,

Most condensers, in fact all of them, don't handle the load, they blow the condenser relief valve. Only the Doble's fan turbine did a lot of good here, vastly increasing the air flow through the condenser. At least E-14 would climb the Grapevine going to L.A. on one tank easily; but in really hot weather Barney always switched on the auxiliary tank he built into the car.

Harry,

About twenty miles if the going was really rough. This is the reason I suggested that secondary cooling idea. Now you see why.
You have to live with and drive these babies for a long time before you learn their nasty habits.
With the Stanley you pull over and start working the hand pump, or your passenger did the flailing on the handle, or jack up one wheel. With the Dobles, if it really got hard, you also pulled over and used the auxiliary. Both situations were a pain in the derrière.
Only the Whites did it right. 100% excess water at 18 mph on a level road in high gear, in low they always did the job without all this fuss. Even when climbing a really steep hill, so steep I had to use the simpling pedal to keep going in low.

Calib,

Now you see why I advocate a two speed transmission. Don't add complication when there is an easier way to handle it.
The Doble auxiliary was manually engaged. Pull up the button on the floor and it disengaged a dog clutch and activated a heavy amperage switch.
When cold they do use a lot of water, only when thoroughly warmed up do they behave.
You really can't use this when the burner is on, as the amperage (80+) would blow the circuit breaker.

Bill,

Think permanently engaged gears, big ones, and use a heavy dog clutch. All off the shelf and available. No slush box, an awful waste of power.
Or use a LENCO, they can take the torque.

Fun ain't it!!

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2009 08:30AM by James D. Crank.
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 11:17PM
Hi Harry- happy to see you made an efficiency gain by reducing friction- in the post you mentioned something about regeneration and I wondered if you considered a hydraulic hybrid- on the same PES wiki list you're on, there are two people working on hydraulic transmissions and energy storage.

Ingo Valentin
VALENTIN TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
14900 Westover Road
Elm Grove, WI 53122   (USA)
Phone:  262-821-1901
Fax:      262-821-1910
Email:   Valentrain@msn.com
Web:    www.Valentrain.com

and

Thomas Kasmer
Hydristor Corp.
Box 779
Johnson City, NY 13790

607-206-8960

of the two I liked Valentin better because he explains his system in a way that I could understand it, but he does have his own motor, which is pretty nice but not as clean, quiet and multi-fueled as yours- Thomas Kasmer seems to mainly have a hydraulic transmission and is a little shaky in his explanations of how everything works but I'm not an engineer.
Re: cyclone engine
January 27, 2009 11:33PM
Hi Ernie:

Snowmobile trannies are basically CVTs, Continuously Variable Transmissions. The Subaru Justy had one. GM was working on them for years. The efficiency is undoubted. Lots of practical problems, though. The elastomeric belts just don't hold up real well, even with advanced materials. Snowmobile belt changes are pretty common, but automotive layout makes frequent belt changes impractical even if the typical modern owner would tolerate it. Kinda hard to sell the idea of changing the belt every 25,000 miles if the sparkplugs are good for 100,000.

There have been metallic belts. Big problem here was unacceptable noise above about 40 HP; and I've heard about the results of catastrophic failure, it was unacceptable.

The dual mode hybrid seems to be the leading contender to offer CVT capabilities in larger horsepowers and long distance reliability with reported fuel economy gains of around 25% on the highway, while typical single mode hybrids deliver fuel economy improvements only in city driving.

My own 4" x 4" uniflow single cylinder, SA test bed engine will most likely go into a dune buggy. The engine is slated for 6% cutoff at all speeds,though this is easily modified. This cutoff requires a starter and a full transmission. I'm currently in the air between a 4 or 5 speed manual or a snowmobile belt drive similar to what you propose. The dunebuggy layout permits easy access to the powertrain which is necessary for any real powertrain development, so belt changes wouldn't be onerous. Putting a steam powerplant under the hood of a production car without a lot of prior experience in type would be just begging for trouble. A lot is going to depend on what donor vehicle I end up with and, of course, the economy and my cash flow. Right now I'm concentrating on sand casting patterns as pine doesn't cost a lot, the bigger part of the engine patterns are now done, then on to the turbo condenser.

Regards,

Ken
HLS
Re: cyclone engine
January 28, 2009 09:30AM
Hi Guys
First of all it is not a Doble. The water rate is far less. the cu in of the engine are far less The condencer fan is electric driven by demamd for max evaporation of heat exchanger output. It is not an auto motive radiator. Condencing occurs by more than one means. The first stage is a reheater right at the steam exaust ports the next is the water spray. this also helps in the lubrication, then into the large surface area of the cyntrifical condencer. Spinning the crank shaft at high speed assistes the condencing when the max flow occours. but the systenm is not totaly dependent on this.
Harry
Re: cyclone engine
January 28, 2009 09:31AM
Hi,
It seems there are much emphasis on putting a steam engine on a car. There are just so many ways to go wrong in road driving, from condensers don't work right to water tanks run dry. Doesn't installing transmission (weight) defeats the purpose? I think steam engines are more suitable for marine (even aviation) applications.
Max.
Re: cyclone engine
January 28, 2009 10:06AM
Max,

>>"It seems there are much emphasis on putting a steam engine on a car."<<

You are at "The SteamAutomobile Club of America" web site.


Harry is designing, building, and testing, in areas where (as best I can determine) no one has gone before. Where his engines end up will await the test results, despite our hoping for an automobile.

Best,
Scott
Re: cyclone engine
January 28, 2009 10:25AM
Max,

As Scott said, this site is for steam car development and the exchange of ideas on how to do that. We range all over the place with this one, as you have noticed.

Harry Schoell has certainly gone way beyond any previous work and his results are more than just interesting. He is pointing the way the Rankine cycle engine needs to go to be competitive. No one known has pushed the envelope as far as he has, and gotten anywhere near the results he has successfully demonstrated.
The car with a Cyclone in it will come, fear not.

The type and size of transmission usable is not significant compared to what the latest gas engined cars need. I use the word "usable" as compared to absolutely essential.
It's there if you need it; but you don't need to use it for ordinary driving.

Jim
Re: cyclone engine
January 28, 2009 10:46AM
Hi Max:

Transmissions look good to me, did wonders for Jay Carter. It isn't as though IC engines don't have a lot to go wrong, like steamers they take in air and fuel, combust them, push pistons up and down,circulate lubricants, exhaust the products and have to have ways to reject excess heat and so on. Steamers go wrong more often due to lesser development; I recently drove 200 miles without seeing a broken car along the road but when I was 30 years younger that would never have happened. We can assume there was some development in there some place.

Not like IC engines actually need transmissions, either. Build an engine with large displacement, long stroke, low compression and you can drive all day with just a clutch; just isn't a horribly efficient way to design an engine. I think the same goes for a steamer. If you keep the MEP low and rpm high you will get good economy but a tranny will be needed to match output to load. For those who claim the starter and transmission are a lot of wasted weight and mechanism I can only point out that the fast revving engine is light, the valve gear is ultra simple and cheap and the low steam consumption means minimal boiler, burner and condenser size and weight under all circumstances.

I'm sure others on the Forum will have different opinions, and that is fine. To each his own. Only time I get annoyed is when someone acts as though they are on the 'Steam Auto Tradition Enforcement Squad' and try to tell me what a steam automobile MUST be. If they want DA engines, low rpm, direct drive, massive torque, very heavy components and variable valve trains, fair enough. I have my own take on what is acceptable and there should be room enough for all. Not like there was all that much consensus on steam car design back around 1900, either, the design gamut was much larger than what people on the Forum now discuss.

Regards,

Ken
Re: cyclone engine
January 28, 2009 11:43AM
Thanks Ken!

Those 20 minute oil change places are going to need something to do when Harry's engine starts going into cars. They could change your V-belt every two years and fill up your water every 6 months! LOL!

Take care! Ernie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2009 11:49AM by grajekk.
Re: cyclone engine
January 28, 2009 05:24PM
Hi,

I might mention too. The difference in designing a marine engine system that works well and designing an automotive system that works well is like the difference between checkers and chess. The automotive design constraints add a lot more challenge.

Jeremy, I wonder about your "joke" about the thermodynamics police. Aren't they already out to ruin the efficiency of the Diesel engine?

Anyway, other than no money right now, my engine design stopped where it is because the whole system needs to be balanced as to engine, boiler design and condenser. I have a 200 HP engine on the board that will need about 1,000 lb/ hr of steam. If a high pressure w/reheat stage is added then the HP will jump to about 280. The boiler and condenser need to fit together with that; If they can't fit decently into a car or small truck then I will need to downsize the engine. These are the types of design criteria I am looking at. If this were for a boat, no problem.

This engine would then put out a torque of 435 lb-ft or more from zero to 1,800 Rpm, and a gently increasing torque from there up to 3,600 RPM. To fit everything into a car the tranny has to be as compact as possible. To get the best efficiency the tranny has to be as low a drag as possible. To get the best economy the tranny has to cost the least amount which means off the shelf parts. If it is mounted on the rear end with a drive shaft going to it then we need independent rear suspension. On & on.

Truth is, I'm not totally sold on front wheel drive yet vs rear wheel drive. Ken your more knowledgeable on the pros & cons of this, what do you think?

Best Regards,---- Bill G.

Maybe if tranny interest is a topic we should move it to another thread.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2009 05:31PM by Bill Gatlin.
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