cyclone engine
Posted by Harry Schoell
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Re: cyclone engine August 17, 2007 01:05PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,769 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 17, 2007 01:58PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
Hi Rolly.
The drawing is from ProE [www.ptc.com]. I can't say I like their rendering interface. It puts the object in a box room. The default is sort of a couse room with windows. Had a heck if a time. It kept shoring reflections of thoes on the surfce. Made it lock like a peace of taffy. Not at all what I expected. The personal version if ProE isn't to bad for cost. It's the student version for $100 more. But thats still a lot less then the profesional version.
I origionally was going to use a high temp metel like 310. But working on my wood stove I got some high temp furnance cement. I played with it a bit and found it worked real well at radiating heat. It doesn't require as much heat to get it radiating as stainless 16 gage sheet. The heated surface radiates while the back side remains relative cool. The Kaowool is on the outside. With a 1/2" layer of Kaowool you can put your hand on it while firing.
I wound up using stainless screen wire to get it to hold it's shape and stand the shock testing. The ones tested so far have used common furnance cement from Lowes and westlake hard ware. I might try some of the ITC products. The only problem I have now is that after a seting in the shop all winter it did gain a bit of moisture. On firing it did cause some piting on the surface. I had a few samples to play with. The samples wern't fired all that much if at all. So it may not be a problem if cured completely. These were small 3"x3" peaces with Kaowool backing I made for testing and demos.
I think that it being an insolation meterial is an advantage over stainless or other metel. It's the first barier to heat transfer.
Andy
The drawing is from ProE [www.ptc.com]. I can't say I like their rendering interface. It puts the object in a box room. The default is sort of a couse room with windows. Had a heck if a time. It kept shoring reflections of thoes on the surfce. Made it lock like a peace of taffy. Not at all what I expected. The personal version if ProE isn't to bad for cost. It's the student version for $100 more. But thats still a lot less then the profesional version.
I origionally was going to use a high temp metel like 310. But working on my wood stove I got some high temp furnance cement. I played with it a bit and found it worked real well at radiating heat. It doesn't require as much heat to get it radiating as stainless 16 gage sheet. The heated surface radiates while the back side remains relative cool. The Kaowool is on the outside. With a 1/2" layer of Kaowool you can put your hand on it while firing.
I wound up using stainless screen wire to get it to hold it's shape and stand the shock testing. The ones tested so far have used common furnance cement from Lowes and westlake hard ware. I might try some of the ITC products. The only problem I have now is that after a seting in the shop all winter it did gain a bit of moisture. On firing it did cause some piting on the surface. I had a few samples to play with. The samples wern't fired all that much if at all. So it may not be a problem if cured completely. These were small 3"x3" peaces with Kaowool backing I made for testing and demos.
I think that it being an insolation meterial is an advantage over stainless or other metel. It's the first barier to heat transfer.
Andy
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Re: cyclone engine August 19, 2007 10:59AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 318 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 21, 2007 09:15AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
Hi Howard.
I got the idea of trying to use the furnance cement when I saw it glow like a light bulb filiment when heated.
The problem was stringth. By it's self it isn't mechanicly strong. I had some fiberglass cloth and first made a shell using fiberglass cloth. With the fiber glass it worked even better at radiating IR. But still only slightly stronger. I added a layer of comon screen wire and god good results after curing in a kilm. But after firng the regular steel apeared to have oxidized. It was rusty and crumbled.
Using 316 screen wire has held up to high firing. I was woried about diferential expansion being a problem. But so fire repeated temperature cycling hasn't shown that to be a problem.
Kaowool collects mosture. But isn't to much of a problem as it dries out when heated. I don't like the steam coming off it though. Could mask a tube leek. So I would like to eliminate the mosture colection. Maybe the Keowool hardner woul help that I havn't tried as yet. The PTC products may be a better solution as well. Need more research. It works OK except for mosture problems. So I think the idea is sound. It is also a bit lighter then a 310 sheet.
Andy
I got the idea of trying to use the furnance cement when I saw it glow like a light bulb filiment when heated.
The problem was stringth. By it's self it isn't mechanicly strong. I had some fiberglass cloth and first made a shell using fiberglass cloth. With the fiber glass it worked even better at radiating IR. But still only slightly stronger. I added a layer of comon screen wire and god good results after curing in a kilm. But after firng the regular steel apeared to have oxidized. It was rusty and crumbled.
Using 316 screen wire has held up to high firing. I was woried about diferential expansion being a problem. But so fire repeated temperature cycling hasn't shown that to be a problem.
Kaowool collects mosture. But isn't to much of a problem as it dries out when heated. I don't like the steam coming off it though. Could mask a tube leek. So I would like to eliminate the mosture colection. Maybe the Keowool hardner woul help that I havn't tried as yet. The PTC products may be a better solution as well. Need more research. It works OK except for mosture problems. So I think the idea is sound. It is also a bit lighter then a 310 sheet.
Andy
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Re: cyclone engine August 22, 2007 07:21PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 318 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 24, 2007 03:18PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 124 |
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Re: cyclone engine August 24, 2007 04:35PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi George
It started at .25 it is at .69 right now there is a lot of trading going on right now the rule is buy low sell high started selling 5,000 shares a day today it was 280,000. Beacon valued it at 1.82 what do you think will happen. the Dow droped 1000 points last week. I wish I had a crystal ball. donnot play with the short time players, this will take time it is the real thing.
Harry
It started at .25 it is at .69 right now there is a lot of trading going on right now the rule is buy low sell high started selling 5,000 shares a day today it was 280,000. Beacon valued it at 1.82 what do you think will happen. the Dow droped 1000 points last week. I wish I had a crystal ball. donnot play with the short time players, this will take time it is the real thing.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine September 22, 2007 10:10AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine September 22, 2007 05:03PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 375 |
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Re: cyclone engine September 27, 2007 12:45PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 124 |
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Re: cyclone engine September 27, 2007 01:37PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi George
We were very pleased to have Jim as an advisor on our board. He would not do so if he did not have faith in what we are doing. He is also going to help with technical advice on the land speed car. Of course you are aware it was his car that holds the present record. I will be giving a talk about our technology in New York Oct 20 It is a financial conferance Newt Gingrich will speek before me.
All of us here are in for the long haul, if you look at it short term you are only a speculator trader not looking at the product at all. If I knew how that all worked I would be in a different business, fortune teller.
Harry
We were very pleased to have Jim as an advisor on our board. He would not do so if he did not have faith in what we are doing. He is also going to help with technical advice on the land speed car. Of course you are aware it was his car that holds the present record. I will be giving a talk about our technology in New York Oct 20 It is a financial conferance Newt Gingrich will speek before me.
All of us here are in for the long haul, if you look at it short term you are only a speculator trader not looking at the product at all. If I knew how that all worked I would be in a different business, fortune teller.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine (WHE question) October 06, 2007 12:20AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 6 |
I read on your web site that the WHE is a uniflow with no compression. The only way I can imagine pulling that off is through an idea that I had a few years back where the piston connecting rod would actuate an exhaust valve in the piston itself. After reviewing the pics it seems that this may be the case, but it's hard to make out the details. Is this what the WHE does?
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Re: cyclone engine October 06, 2007 11:48AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
The intake and exaust valves are actuated through the top of the piston. It is insulated inside rather than out, side it is self starting with 8% cutoff for a good efficency.The piston allmost touches the top of the head for 0 clearance. It is limited to 400f and 200psi because of bearing loading. Of course the condencer is part of the machine as it is designed as a closed loop engine.
Harry
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine October 16, 2007 08:44PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 4 |
Hi Harry
I am new to this forum and I deeply appreciate your work and your enthusiasm.
However, as a engineer student from Corto Maltese (south america) I´d like to ask you some questions about your ingenious engine (no pun intended!).
1) in your patent papers, you talk about a "throttle", a valve gear to control the flow of steam into the cilinders, but in some other places (youtube video, website,etc) your said "there´s no throttle":the engine output is regulated by means of the steam "cut-off" (timing of the valve gear) because of the losses associated with the so-called "wire drawing" (pumping loss?).
2) if the cyclone engine does not idlle, how is it going to operate all the ancillary equipment (intake blower, pump, eletric generator, air-conditionning, headlights, etc) of the vehicle (car, truck, boat, etc) when it is stopped or moving very slowly at traffic jams? you gotta have lots of batteries just like a hybrid, especially for starting the engine (how long is it going to take to start it? 30, 45 seconds?).
3) How long are the steam generators/boilers (stainless steel?) going to last? are they designed to withstand such high pressures and temperatures (and very corrossive environment) for the whole lifecycle of the vehicle?
yours sincerely,
ALdreno
I am new to this forum and I deeply appreciate your work and your enthusiasm.
However, as a engineer student from Corto Maltese (south america) I´d like to ask you some questions about your ingenious engine (no pun intended!).
1) in your patent papers, you talk about a "throttle", a valve gear to control the flow of steam into the cilinders, but in some other places (youtube video, website,etc) your said "there´s no throttle":the engine output is regulated by means of the steam "cut-off" (timing of the valve gear) because of the losses associated with the so-called "wire drawing" (pumping loss?).
2) if the cyclone engine does not idlle, how is it going to operate all the ancillary equipment (intake blower, pump, eletric generator, air-conditionning, headlights, etc) of the vehicle (car, truck, boat, etc) when it is stopped or moving very slowly at traffic jams? you gotta have lots of batteries just like a hybrid, especially for starting the engine (how long is it going to take to start it? 30, 45 seconds?).
3) How long are the steam generators/boilers (stainless steel?) going to last? are they designed to withstand such high pressures and temperatures (and very corrossive environment) for the whole lifecycle of the vehicle?
yours sincerely,
ALdreno
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Re: cyclone engine October 17, 2007 01:14PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Aldreno,
To answer your questions
1) It does not use a convential throttle as in a gas or diesel as the fuel is controlled by a thermocouple to keep the fluid constant temperature. It also does not have a conventilal throtle valve as in a normal steam engine. What we call a throttle is the positioning of the lifter on the cam to open the engine inlet valve. An up stream throttle valve has a tendency to restrict the engine flow and cause a pressure drop at the engine.
2)We have just developed a waste heat engine (WHE) which can run off the waste heat of the main engine as well as be fired seperately. this will be shown in the truck installation in Chicago at the end jof the mounth. S.A.E. Commercial show.
3)Pressure and temperture are not a problem as when operating at Supercritical the steam behaves as a fluid not a gas. Heat transfer is better and doesnot allow for hot spots. Power plants opperate with different grades of stainless steel. In our cyntrifical combustion chamber the combustion is complete and there is little or no flame impingement on the tubes. It is amazing to me that there is no concern of the flame front in an internal combustion engine. They are made of carboin steel and the Bio fuels will eat them up like candy. these fuels have little or no effect on stainless.
Thanks for the inquiry,
Harry
To answer your questions
1) It does not use a convential throttle as in a gas or diesel as the fuel is controlled by a thermocouple to keep the fluid constant temperature. It also does not have a conventilal throtle valve as in a normal steam engine. What we call a throttle is the positioning of the lifter on the cam to open the engine inlet valve. An up stream throttle valve has a tendency to restrict the engine flow and cause a pressure drop at the engine.
2)We have just developed a waste heat engine (WHE) which can run off the waste heat of the main engine as well as be fired seperately. this will be shown in the truck installation in Chicago at the end jof the mounth. S.A.E. Commercial show.
3)Pressure and temperture are not a problem as when operating at Supercritical the steam behaves as a fluid not a gas. Heat transfer is better and doesnot allow for hot spots. Power plants opperate with different grades of stainless steel. In our cyntrifical combustion chamber the combustion is complete and there is little or no flame impingement on the tubes. It is amazing to me that there is no concern of the flame front in an internal combustion engine. They are made of carboin steel and the Bio fuels will eat them up like candy. these fuels have little or no effect on stainless.
Thanks for the inquiry,
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine October 25, 2007 11:44AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 4 |
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Re: cyclone engine November 27, 2007 12:29PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 124 |
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Re: cyclone engine November 27, 2007 02:50PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
HI George
We are not manufactures and will not be. We are licencing the technoligy to other people. However we are interested in what you are doing with your solar heater. Deverlopement is continuing with the 20 hp unit. It is being developed for more of a production unit. Right now it is fabricated and the main block will be a casting. This unit has run for more than 50 hrs for testing. We just did a deal with Revgene to manufacture lawnmower engines. there are a few looking at the WHE waste heat engine / solar to mfg.
Harry
We are not manufactures and will not be. We are licencing the technoligy to other people. However we are interested in what you are doing with your solar heater. Deverlopement is continuing with the 20 hp unit. It is being developed for more of a production unit. Right now it is fabricated and the main block will be a casting. This unit has run for more than 50 hrs for testing. We just did a deal with Revgene to manufacture lawnmower engines. there are a few looking at the WHE waste heat engine / solar to mfg.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine November 28, 2007 12:06PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 124 |
Harry, I still want to know how the engine stacks up against a piston steam engine. With all this testing you must have data to provide by now?
I have the positioner ready for integration. I just bought a 10 kW Chicago Tool Generator for 120 / 240 VAC output. I can have the dish ready by the end of January. I have a shop ready to wind the boiler / receiver.
I have the positioner ready for integration. I just bought a 10 kW Chicago Tool Generator for 120 / 240 VAC output. I can have the dish ready by the end of January. I have a shop ready to wind the boiler / receiver.
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Re: cyclone engine November 28, 2007 03:49PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
HI George
It is a piston engine. The WHE is different than the auto Cyclone engine as it is designed to operate at lower temp 400f and 200psi up to 2000rpm. It is self starting with an 8% cuttoff no clearance volume no compression and is uni-flow and is insulsted from the inside. It is a total closed loop containing its condencer and cooling blower. It takes a lot of testing to get it right. However it worked right out of the box.
Harry
It is a piston engine. The WHE is different than the auto Cyclone engine as it is designed to operate at lower temp 400f and 200psi up to 2000rpm. It is self starting with an 8% cuttoff no clearance volume no compression and is uni-flow and is insulsted from the inside. It is a total closed loop containing its condencer and cooling blower. It takes a lot of testing to get it right. However it worked right out of the box.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine November 28, 2007 04:20PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine November 29, 2007 12:52AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 124 |
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Re: cyclone engine November 29, 2007 09:33AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
HI George
Max hp rating on that engine is 20hp at 200psi 2000rpm generator eff .8=16hp=12KW max electrical output. Solar collection can put out aprox 250BTU per sq ft. After efficency and losses you might get about 10% at the hp output or 6% at KW electrical output. That is far better than photo cells especialy when adding first cost and the ability to add a back up steam generator to burn any fuel sourse. This engine was running during the entire show in Chicago last mounth and will be operating during the PowerGen show in New Orleans Dec 11-13. Please come and see it, We will get you in.
Harry
Max hp rating on that engine is 20hp at 200psi 2000rpm generator eff .8=16hp=12KW max electrical output. Solar collection can put out aprox 250BTU per sq ft. After efficency and losses you might get about 10% at the hp output or 6% at KW electrical output. That is far better than photo cells especialy when adding first cost and the ability to add a back up steam generator to burn any fuel sourse. This engine was running during the entire show in Chicago last mounth and will be operating during the PowerGen show in New Orleans Dec 11-13. Please come and see it, We will get you in.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine November 29, 2007 10:34AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
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Re: cyclone engine November 29, 2007 01:32PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Andy
We exaust through the piston instead of the cyinder.The head is insulated with min heat loss Works very well. Self starting with 8% cutoff. Also no cam, pushrods or valve seals.Just give it about 10psi and away it goes at 200psi it is a screamer.(silent of course).We have a lexan cover soi the movement can be observed. Fun to watch. In Chicago people staired as if hypnotized.
Harry
We exaust through the piston instead of the cyinder.The head is insulated with min heat loss Works very well. Self starting with 8% cutoff. Also no cam, pushrods or valve seals.Just give it about 10psi and away it goes at 200psi it is a screamer.(silent of course).We have a lexan cover soi the movement can be observed. Fun to watch. In Chicago people staired as if hypnotized.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine November 29, 2007 01:38PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
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Re: cyclone engine November 29, 2007 01:44PM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine November 29, 2007 04:38PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 124 |
Harry,
I am still unemployed. Please send airline tix, etc. so I can attend
When you are on the West coast, let me know.
When will you have an engine for me to have for my prototype? I have an in with some production folks in Hollywood who said they would do commercials for free and also get me on a few programs.
George Blake
I am still unemployed. Please send airline tix, etc. so I can attend
When you are on the West coast, let me know.
When will you have an engine for me to have for my prototype? I have an in with some production folks in Hollywood who said they would do commercials for free and also get me on a few programs.
George Blake
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Re: cyclone engine November 30, 2007 11:40AM |
Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine December 01, 2007 08:31AM |
Admin Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 2,068 |
Hi All:
As I recall, much of the basic mechanism for the WHE is pretty similar to those found in US Patents 3,910,160 and 671,394. At least, I think so. The latter patent pretty well covers the exhaust valve if I remember what i saw at the fall SACA meet. As usual, you can find those through pat2pdf.org or Google patents. Hope this makes it easier to envision, Andy.
Regards,
Ken
As I recall, much of the basic mechanism for the WHE is pretty similar to those found in US Patents 3,910,160 and 671,394. At least, I think so. The latter patent pretty well covers the exhaust valve if I remember what i saw at the fall SACA meet. As usual, you can find those through pat2pdf.org or Google patents. Hope this makes it easier to envision, Andy.
Regards,
Ken
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