cyclone engine
Posted by Harry Schoell
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Harry Schoell
cyclone engine July 10, 2004 02:41PM |
the water lube mark 4 engine has been running 2 to 4 hours each day fo the last 2 weeks. tore it down twice every thing is ok. slight modification to the rings, to tight running good. Learn some something new every time it is started. Start up 10 to 15 secends however it will continue to run several minunites after the fuel is off. It is a total sealed system no water loss. max back preasure 5 psi. This will occure if it is shut down with the blower off or piston left on top dead center. This is only a test engine as the larger engine is being built and should be running in 5 mounths. try to have the mark 4 at THE GREAT STEAM CAR RACE in sept. Has no cloud of steam sorry
HARRY
HARRY
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chuk williams
Re: cyclone engine July 12, 2004 08:57AM |
Harry--
Great news on the new engine!!! And I'm glad to
hear that you're gonna make it to the GSCR....Are
you going to have enough time to put your engine into
a vehicle and compete?? We're hoping for some new competition
this year for the dragster.....
I'm on the road to Florida by this time tomorrow, so won't
be online for a few weeks probably...
Keep up the good work!!
Chuk
Great news on the new engine!!! And I'm glad to
hear that you're gonna make it to the GSCR....Are
you going to have enough time to put your engine into
a vehicle and compete?? We're hoping for some new competition
this year for the dragster.....
I'm on the road to Florida by this time tomorrow, so won't
be online for a few weeks probably...
Keep up the good work!!
Chuk
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Harry Schoell
Re: cyclone engine October 12, 2004 12:55PM |
HI I promissed this. this is the one cylinder cyclone engine running. 4.5 ft lbs torque @ 5000 rpm ran it 7000 rpm once. totaly self contained and heat regenerative water luberacated. no steam loss, clean burn multifuel. Use mostly acetone. burnes similar to acohol but cheeper as we have it avaible. ran it for 25 hrs until a wristpin scored the cylinder. We desided to put our attentions to the Mark 2 and the mark5 6cyl . The 2 is a few weeks away the 6 cyl is 2 mounth away.Harry Schoell wrote:
> the water lube mark 4 engine has been running 2 to 4 hours
> each day fo the last 2 weeks. tore it down twice every thing is
> ok. slight modification to the rings, to tight running good.
> Learn some something new every time it is started. Start up 10
> to 15 secends however it will continue to run several minunites
> after the fuel is off. It is a total sealed system no water
> loss. max back preasure 5 psi. This will occure if it is shut
> down with the blower off or piston left on top dead center.
> This is only a test engine as the larger engine is being built
> and should be running in 5 mounths. try to have the mark 4 at
> THE GREAT STEAM CAR RACE in sept. Has no cloud of steam
> sorry
> HARRY
> the water lube mark 4 engine has been running 2 to 4 hours
> each day fo the last 2 weeks. tore it down twice every thing is
> ok. slight modification to the rings, to tight running good.
> Learn some something new every time it is started. Start up 10
> to 15 secends however it will continue to run several minunites
> after the fuel is off. It is a total sealed system no water
> loss. max back preasure 5 psi. This will occure if it is shut
> down with the blower off or piston left on top dead center.
> This is only a test engine as the larger engine is being built
> and should be running in 5 mounths. try to have the mark 4 at
> THE GREAT STEAM CAR RACE in sept. Has no cloud of steam
> sorry
> HARRY
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Harry Schoell
Re: cyclone engine October 12, 2004 01:06PM |
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George Nutz
Re: cyclone engine February 05, 2005 07:10AM |
Think that the discussion on the closed unit developed by Harry Schoell should continue on this thread started last July by Mr. Schoell---that way none of its participants will be "off topic" . Sorry Scott F. for being part of the meanderings. I observed the construction of the 18HP/90# steam plant at Ormond Beach and it was extremely well made, however it is a bit difficult to grasp all that is going on in this enclosed unit in one viewing.
George
George
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Re: cyclone engine February 08, 2005 04:24AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 63 |
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Re: cyclone engine February 15, 2005 12:48PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi John
The Cyclone engine is totaly water lube, as we felt it was the only way we could element contamination at high temp. there was a lot of experiment even before a running engine. results are faverable but still on going. carbon, teflon and ceramics are out. clearances are closer than with oil. we are using composit bearings of special formulations and having good results. You might look for an old thread called Searching. I recived a lot of help from the members and am grateful.We are in the inventing business however there is no substitute for experance.
Harry
The Cyclone engine is totaly water lube, as we felt it was the only way we could element contamination at high temp. there was a lot of experiment even before a running engine. results are faverable but still on going. carbon, teflon and ceramics are out. clearances are closer than with oil. we are using composit bearings of special formulations and having good results. You might look for an old thread called Searching. I recived a lot of help from the members and am grateful.We are in the inventing business however there is no substitute for experance.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine March 04, 2005 11:55AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 215 |
I witnessed the Cyclone Mark II engine running on March 3 and it appeared to run very well, possibly 2400RPM or more. There are pictures of it plus a running sound video on the front/home page of Woodson's Stanleysteamers.com website. As previously mentioned it is a very neat and compact steam plant package.
Best, George
Best, George
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Re: cyclone engine March 23, 2005 09:34AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Folks
Sorry could not get the running video on this as it is in W M P and doesn't match this format. It can be seen on stanleysteamer.com. The engine is to be shown at the S.A.E. show April 11 to 15 in Detroit. The engine is going through more changes and will be in a cleaner condition. The 6 cyl is progressing rapidly, may be running in a couple of mounth. of course it is more comlicated than the 2 cyl.
thanks for the help
Harry
Sorry could not get the running video on this as it is in W M P and doesn't match this format. It can be seen on stanleysteamer.com. The engine is to be shown at the S.A.E. show April 11 to 15 in Detroit. The engine is going through more changes and will be in a cleaner condition. The 6 cyl is progressing rapidly, may be running in a couple of mounth. of course it is more comlicated than the 2 cyl.
thanks for the help
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine March 23, 2005 09:41AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 01, 2005 10:51AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
pic of the axiel flow blower for the mark 2 engine. 4" dia. over 1000 cu ft per min, three stages. Fits into a housing mostly for cooling.
Harry
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 05, 2005 07:30AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 215 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 06, 2005 04:07PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 06, 2005 10:05PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
Harry,
The Cyclone engine looks really snazzy. It will be great when you are in a position to release more data about it as I am sure we are all anxious.
As George mentioned, good luck with the SAE convention, I can't imagine a nifty new type of engine not invocking a good deal of intrest.
The powerhead you sent me (4 cylinder aluminum, 90 ci shortblock) arrived today and I wanted to thank you for it. I believe it can be put to use first in testing cylinder and piston/crosslide designs but it looks like it could be adapted to almost anything.
Maybe it picked up some "Cyclone vibes" from your shop. Gotta be good luck in that. Thanks again.
Bill G.
The Cyclone engine looks really snazzy. It will be great when you are in a position to release more data about it as I am sure we are all anxious.
As George mentioned, good luck with the SAE convention, I can't imagine a nifty new type of engine not invocking a good deal of intrest.
The powerhead you sent me (4 cylinder aluminum, 90 ci shortblock) arrived today and I wanted to thank you for it. I believe it can be put to use first in testing cylinder and piston/crosslide designs but it looks like it could be adapted to almost anything.
Maybe it picked up some "Cyclone vibes" from your shop. Gotta be good luck in that. Thanks again.
Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine April 07, 2005 10:04AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 07, 2005 11:02AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Andy,
We rated the 2 cyl at 18 hp however the net numbers appear higher. Will get back on this and other numbers when we have better documention. I will not publish BS. Thanks Andy for the help.
Hi Bill,
don,t think you will need a cross head if you are running non condencing and mayo in the crankcase.
off this afternoon for Detroit.
Have a good day
Harry
We rated the 2 cyl at 18 hp however the net numbers appear higher. Will get back on this and other numbers when we have better documention. I will not publish BS. Thanks Andy for the help.
Hi Bill,
don,t think you will need a cross head if you are running non condencing and mayo in the crankcase.
off this afternoon for Detroit.
Have a good day
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 18, 2005 12:15PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi,
Just returned from the SAE show, had one idoit early on, said he thought he had killed steam 20 years ago, had no clue how it worked. We felt we did well however. A lot of young engineers, took a lot of explaining.
GM had a Hummer hydrogen fuel veicle great stats....?a big 6 leater supercharged engine at a whopping 180 hp with a range of 60 miles with 3 huge cylinders. Some of the young engineers who worked on it were assamed as it was done for political reasons.
The web sight will be updated from time to time www.cyclonepower.com
Sorry we have to make a business out of this venture as it requires a lot of money to do this. I have been told we are very few doing a new technolgy, we wish any one well as it is a daunting task.Theory is good, the foram has been helpful, however you start to learn when you light a fire. will try to answer most questions.
Harry
Just returned from the SAE show, had one idoit early on, said he thought he had killed steam 20 years ago, had no clue how it worked. We felt we did well however. A lot of young engineers, took a lot of explaining.
GM had a Hummer hydrogen fuel veicle great stats....?a big 6 leater supercharged engine at a whopping 180 hp with a range of 60 miles with 3 huge cylinders. Some of the young engineers who worked on it were assamed as it was done for political reasons.
The web sight will be updated from time to time www.cyclonepower.com
Sorry we have to make a business out of this venture as it requires a lot of money to do this. I have been told we are very few doing a new technolgy, we wish any one well as it is a daunting task.Theory is good, the foram has been helpful, however you start to learn when you light a fire. will try to answer most questions.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 18, 2005 05:58PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,268 |
Good going Harry,
I know that conventions and trade shows can be wearing.
As far as the idiot, I don't know of any technology that killed off anything engine related twenty years ago. Maybe he was into politics.
Looking forward to hearing more when you can.
The best to you, your crew and your endeavours------------ Bill G.
I know that conventions and trade shows can be wearing.
As far as the idiot, I don't know of any technology that killed off anything engine related twenty years ago. Maybe he was into politics.
Looking forward to hearing more when you can.
The best to you, your crew and your endeavours------------ Bill G.
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Re: cyclone engine April 19, 2005 01:29AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Way to go, Harry! I have been following the reports on your powerplant with interest, sounds good!
Those "we're gonna shut you down" guys are just blowhards. I finally figured out the deal with that. We all run into idiots who say "the oil/auto/whatever companies [or, insert pet insidious conspiracy, eg, martian banking conspiracy, international donut cartel, blondes, weasels, evil AI Toast-O-Lators from the Moon, etc] are gonna shut you down". Well, my theory is that now and then one such tinfoil hatter realizes in mid-sentence that he actually works for some such interest group [eg, he's a urinal cake changer at Halliburton corporate offices] and quickly inserts "we" in place of "they". Simple as that. You're doing something cool, they ain't, and they wanna mess with you. Just tap the "Ignore" key and keep working.
That hydrogen Hummer with a 60 mile range is a real treat. 60 miles will get you from one nonexistent hydrogen fuel station to the next, where you can fill up with imaginary hydrogen fuel distributed from uneconomical sources through a fictitious infrastructure. No doubt Arnold Schwartzenegger will chauffeur you, too. Brilliant. And _these_ masterminds are an ingenious conspiracy that suppresses competing technologies? Right.
I'm going to write a book entitled "No Conspiracy, Just Stupidity". Runner-up title is "None Dare Call It Stupidity". Albert Einstein once said that the two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. Remember that 1970s bumper sticker "Nuke Their @$$, Take The Gas"? Well, they just conquered the country with the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world, and what happens. Gas goes up to $3 a gallon. Case closed.
Okay, that's my "talk radio" rant for tonight. Whew.
The real "threat" to light steam development, as you note, is the scarce time and money, and considerable ingenuity, required to succeed. Not easy, but I believe it can be done.
Best of luck with your development work Harry, and keep us posted,
Peter
Those "we're gonna shut you down" guys are just blowhards. I finally figured out the deal with that. We all run into idiots who say "the oil/auto/whatever companies [or, insert pet insidious conspiracy, eg, martian banking conspiracy, international donut cartel, blondes, weasels, evil AI Toast-O-Lators from the Moon, etc] are gonna shut you down". Well, my theory is that now and then one such tinfoil hatter realizes in mid-sentence that he actually works for some such interest group [eg, he's a urinal cake changer at Halliburton corporate offices] and quickly inserts "we" in place of "they". Simple as that. You're doing something cool, they ain't, and they wanna mess with you. Just tap the "Ignore" key and keep working.
That hydrogen Hummer with a 60 mile range is a real treat. 60 miles will get you from one nonexistent hydrogen fuel station to the next, where you can fill up with imaginary hydrogen fuel distributed from uneconomical sources through a fictitious infrastructure. No doubt Arnold Schwartzenegger will chauffeur you, too. Brilliant. And _these_ masterminds are an ingenious conspiracy that suppresses competing technologies? Right.
I'm going to write a book entitled "No Conspiracy, Just Stupidity". Runner-up title is "None Dare Call It Stupidity". Albert Einstein once said that the two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. Remember that 1970s bumper sticker "Nuke Their @$$, Take The Gas"? Well, they just conquered the country with the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world, and what happens. Gas goes up to $3 a gallon. Case closed.
Okay, that's my "talk radio" rant for tonight. Whew.
The real "threat" to light steam development, as you note, is the scarce time and money, and considerable ingenuity, required to succeed. Not easy, but I believe it can be done.
Best of luck with your development work Harry, and keep us posted,
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine April 21, 2005 03:03PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 22, 2005 01:24PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
tis is the cooling air/ combustion air blower testing using a router at 20000 rpm. Note scale is for thrust, felt like a jet engine. needed 1000cu ft min for the 2cyl engine.
reguards Harry
reguards Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 25, 2005 01:37PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 25, 2005 04:20PM |
Admin Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 416 |
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Re: cyclone engine April 26, 2005 06:58AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Andy,
Didn't mean to be so breef. The blower is the one installed in the 2 cyl 18hp engine. We hooked it to a router to get near the rpms for testing before installing into the engine. This blower is engine as well as motor driven and supplys combustion as well as condening cooling air, about 1000cu.ft.pr. min. It is 4in in dia. has 3rotors and 4 stators. The blower in the 6cyl engine is 8in.dia. and has to deliver 6000cu.ft.pr.min.
Harry
Didn't mean to be so breef. The blower is the one installed in the 2 cyl 18hp engine. We hooked it to a router to get near the rpms for testing before installing into the engine. This blower is engine as well as motor driven and supplys combustion as well as condening cooling air, about 1000cu.ft.pr. min. It is 4in in dia. has 3rotors and 4 stators. The blower in the 6cyl engine is 8in.dia. and has to deliver 6000cu.ft.pr.min.
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine April 26, 2005 07:04AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,038 |
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Re: cyclone engine May 06, 2005 09:31AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi
John Fehn in anouther thread was inquireing about condencers. I feel that an automotive radiater is poor for a modern steam engine. The cyclone condencer is a series of flat discs that the steam is spun through inside and concondenced from the air spun around the out side through the discs.
regards Harry
John Fehn in anouther thread was inquireing about condencers. I feel that an automotive radiater is poor for a modern steam engine. The cyclone condencer is a series of flat discs that the steam is spun through inside and concondenced from the air spun around the out side through the discs.
regards Harry
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Re: cyclone engine May 06, 2005 11:15AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Harry,
Great condenser idea! Condensate should get thrown off the internal surfaces by centrifugal force, avoiding water-coating of surfaces, which as Peter Heid has noted cuts heat transfer. Wonder if it would be worth trying a very similar condenser with air inlet holes thru disks at center, disks spaced very close together, and have the whole thing run as its own (Tesla type) fan, with radial outflow of the air. Just a thought. In general I'm no fan of fans. Agree that conventional IC radiators are lame for condensing steam. Not enough internal surface area, mainly, though there are lots of other problems too. I think it is possible to do a lot better than an IC radiator.
Peter
Great condenser idea! Condensate should get thrown off the internal surfaces by centrifugal force, avoiding water-coating of surfaces, which as Peter Heid has noted cuts heat transfer. Wonder if it would be worth trying a very similar condenser with air inlet holes thru disks at center, disks spaced very close together, and have the whole thing run as its own (Tesla type) fan, with radial outflow of the air. Just a thought. In general I'm no fan of fans. Agree that conventional IC radiators are lame for condensing steam. Not enough internal surface area, mainly, though there are lots of other problems too. I think it is possible to do a lot better than an IC radiator.
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine May 07, 2005 03:59AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 835 |
Hi Peter
Interesting thought to spin the condencer as the 2cyl takes 1000 cu ft of air per min. The blower took some work to put it in a small space. The top hot air is used for combustion. The one shone is for the 6cyl is 17in in dia. 7in ht. has about 30 sq.ft area. There is a pre condencer before entering the main one. Could you elaborate more on your thoughts.
Thanks
Harry
Interesting thought to spin the condencer as the 2cyl takes 1000 cu ft of air per min. The blower took some work to put it in a small space. The top hot air is used for combustion. The one shone is for the 6cyl is 17in in dia. 7in ht. has about 30 sq.ft area. There is a pre condencer before entering the main one. Could you elaborate more on your thoughts.
Thanks
Harry
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Re: cyclone engine May 07, 2005 09:46AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Harry,
I'm not sure I understand how the Cyclone engine condenser works. Are the disks hollow? My idea was to make them hollow, with steam inside and airflow outside. Use rotating seals for steam inlet & water outlet. I don't like the rotating seals part. I'm going to try scanning and posting a sketch.
Don't want to go into too much detail on my general condenser ideas because that will start me blabbing about possibly patentable stuff. Peter Heid's research got me started on a lot of this. Look up the "V-tube" radiators used for Philips stirling engines and the Saab steam car. Maybe I can post a scan of a drawing. Maximum airflow (4x conventional per unit frontal area) and heat differential over all surfaces. Combine that with copper (2x heat conductivity of aluminum, 4x brass), and slant the tubes to keep a water sheet from coating them as in vertical-tube condensers (another up to 2x condensing power per unit surface area), and I think you can multiply the condensing power in a small volume/frontal area, relative to a conventional brass or aluminum IC radiator. This is not demonstrated, just a hypothesis which I plan to build & test.
However, your condenser may already do as well or better. The above is aimed at an improved fanless ram-air condenser for automobile use. A fan could be added if desired.
Heading for the PC now to see if I can work out some scans.
Peter
I'm not sure I understand how the Cyclone engine condenser works. Are the disks hollow? My idea was to make them hollow, with steam inside and airflow outside. Use rotating seals for steam inlet & water outlet. I don't like the rotating seals part. I'm going to try scanning and posting a sketch.
Don't want to go into too much detail on my general condenser ideas because that will start me blabbing about possibly patentable stuff. Peter Heid's research got me started on a lot of this. Look up the "V-tube" radiators used for Philips stirling engines and the Saab steam car. Maybe I can post a scan of a drawing. Maximum airflow (4x conventional per unit frontal area) and heat differential over all surfaces. Combine that with copper (2x heat conductivity of aluminum, 4x brass), and slant the tubes to keep a water sheet from coating them as in vertical-tube condensers (another up to 2x condensing power per unit surface area), and I think you can multiply the condensing power in a small volume/frontal area, relative to a conventional brass or aluminum IC radiator. This is not demonstrated, just a hypothesis which I plan to build & test.
However, your condenser may already do as well or better. The above is aimed at an improved fanless ram-air condenser for automobile use. A fan could be added if desired.
Heading for the PC now to see if I can work out some scans.
Peter
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Re: cyclone engine May 07, 2005 10:54AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Hi Harry,
Let's see if this works. I am trying to post 3 "napkin-grade" sketches. Two show the "rotary condenser" idea, the other shows the very different "Vee Tube condenser" idea.
The rotary condenser is a stack of closely-spaced hollow disks which are fed steam from a central tube which rotates as a unit with them. When the disks rotate, air is drawn through air inlet holes running through the disks near the central axis tube. The disks act as a Tesla Turbine blower, pulling the air radially outward across the disks. Steam and condensate are also thrown outward by centrifugal force to exit via condensate tubes at edges of disk. I threw in a collector ring to eliminate a seal on that end.
I just realized that this may not be very effective, though. In Tesla disk pumps, the fluid next to the surface moves with the surface! However, this idea could be modified to use air from a conventional blower, and the disks rotated to keep their inner surfaces from sheeting up, and to pump the water out. Also, the condenser itself could act as the fan by simply adding some impeller blades, perhaps at/between the outer rims of the disks.
The Vee Tube condenser is a better idea for steam cars I think. The isometric part of the drawing shows one vertical steam inlet tube to the left, from which exhaust steam passes through nearly horizontal cooling tubes to the vertical outlet tubes to the right. A number of these arrays are lined up next to each other to form the whole condenser. To the right is a very rough sketch of the whole V-tube condenser, top view cross section through the middle. Vertical inlet tubes in cross section (as circles) to the left, and vertical outlet tubes shown same way to the right. The cross tubes linking inlet and outlet tubes form the "vees". Tops of inlet tubes and bottoms of outlet tubes are connected by headers. There are many ways to plumb these. These condensers can be designed with zero airflow restriction and need no fins. Jig drilling and dip or furnace soldering is best due to all the joints.
Sorry about the low quality of these sketches. They were done quickly, and besides they're in crayon because they don't allow us to have anything with sharp points in here.
Peter
Let's see if this works. I am trying to post 3 "napkin-grade" sketches. Two show the "rotary condenser" idea, the other shows the very different "Vee Tube condenser" idea.
The rotary condenser is a stack of closely-spaced hollow disks which are fed steam from a central tube which rotates as a unit with them. When the disks rotate, air is drawn through air inlet holes running through the disks near the central axis tube. The disks act as a Tesla Turbine blower, pulling the air radially outward across the disks. Steam and condensate are also thrown outward by centrifugal force to exit via condensate tubes at edges of disk. I threw in a collector ring to eliminate a seal on that end.
I just realized that this may not be very effective, though. In Tesla disk pumps, the fluid next to the surface moves with the surface! However, this idea could be modified to use air from a conventional blower, and the disks rotated to keep their inner surfaces from sheeting up, and to pump the water out. Also, the condenser itself could act as the fan by simply adding some impeller blades, perhaps at/between the outer rims of the disks.
The Vee Tube condenser is a better idea for steam cars I think. The isometric part of the drawing shows one vertical steam inlet tube to the left, from which exhaust steam passes through nearly horizontal cooling tubes to the vertical outlet tubes to the right. A number of these arrays are lined up next to each other to form the whole condenser. To the right is a very rough sketch of the whole V-tube condenser, top view cross section through the middle. Vertical inlet tubes in cross section (as circles) to the left, and vertical outlet tubes shown same way to the right. The cross tubes linking inlet and outlet tubes form the "vees". Tops of inlet tubes and bottoms of outlet tubes are connected by headers. There are many ways to plumb these. These condensers can be designed with zero airflow restriction and need no fins. Jig drilling and dip or furnace soldering is best due to all the joints.
Sorry about the low quality of these sketches. They were done quickly, and besides they're in crayon because they don't allow us to have anything with sharp points in here.
Peter
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