cyclone engine

Hi Ken
Thanks for the heads up. It is close to what we are doing in the valve area and will probably come up in the references.
Harry

Cyclone update
Next Monday Feb.4 will be the first meeting of the technical advisary board
Attending will be George Nutz, Bob Edwards, Bob Borque, Jerry Peoples, And Jim Crank on Phone who could not attend in person. In house people will be Aubery England, Mike Hodgson and myself. These experts feel that the Cyclone is the best hope for the future and wish to contribute to the cause. We feel that their contribution will speed up our developement as they have the talent and expertise to help expedite and actualy see the hardware up close.
Harry

"These experts feel that the Cyclone is the best hope for the future...."

Any commentary would be purely redundant. :-D

Ken

Im curious to know how this went.

Ive developed some technology. Considering im tired, and havent yet gone into production, with my V V L injection valve.

I can easily ponder what it actually takes to create an actual market.

Ive gotten replies from folks on my website, saying if you could just put the damn thing on the market then we, 'as users' could take it so much farther.

This has led to a more user friendy version of an engine. At the apex of design, caused by interaction with others and prolonged research.

This is why I think that prototypes are so important. (with current efforts) I am mainly focusing on lukewarm high pressure water direct injection systems, 2000psi to 3000psi, no more than 220*f. although I need the four-cycle steam engine cycle, too cause a power pulse. This only occurs once per two crankshaft rotations.

Alternately, supercritical steam may be passed thru the injector, with a larger diameter orifice, and perhaps benefit a great number of other engine cycles or types.

Harry what youre doing is not easy by any means, I like the professional courtesy, approche that you take. I think it just makes it, that much easier, to do business and collaborate.

Jeremy

Hello Jeremy,

Wouldn't your injector work same or better than a poppet valve system for super-critical steam to get really short cutoffs? I am thinking here of 3,500 psia at 850 deg F. 7 1/2 % cutoff.

Harry,

Hope the conference went and is going well. Eager to hear about it. A friend in Idaho mentioned that he thought my steam engine would be really accepted, as in possibly legally mandated, for snowmobile engines. This because of the noise. I think though that the Cyclone would be a far better candidate for this application.

Best Regards and wishing success, ------ Bill G.

Hi Guys
we had a great meeting, It could not have worked out better. Chuk Williams brought his latest LSR car model Cyclone patent attorney, Robert Downey and cyclone corporate att were there for introductons. All were present with Jim Crank in the middle of the table on phone, later it was george Nutz on his banjo at the house. some people watch the foot ball game, Bob Edwards does calculations. A wonderful group of professionals. We covered
a lot of material and they were able to see the test equipment and comment opinions. They all appeared to be pleased with what they saw and the descussions were very positive.
Harry

Bill,

Yes it could. The fastest ive measured continuous cycling is 50% duty-cycle at .003 seconds. When dealing with actual engine driven signals, such as 7.5% percent piston travel(thats the way i measure it anyhow), the 'off' percentage of wave modulation(duty-cycle), is definitly leaning in favor. In order to reach those operating parameters at 3500psi, with a large sized discharge orifice, such as .193inch, It wouldnt suprise me, if the injector solenoid draw was 450amps @12volts dc continuous/on. At 2200psi im comfortable with 333amps draw continuous/on and the same size discharge orifice. Go smaller with discharge orifice size and much higher pressures are easily attenuated, with less continuous current draw from the injectors solenoid. As the injector is driven by a cam sensor, the pulse width modulation, can drop amp draw to 55amps under cycling conditions, but the 333amp rating for that, would be considerd instant draw over time.

Harry,

Glad to hear things went so well. Its definitly going to be cool to see things progress.

Jeremy

HI Jeremy
Still awaiting your visit
Harry

Hi Harry,

Id like to do something pretty soon. Im going to call Cyclone tech to get in touch with you, most likely after tuesday of next week. I have finished the training with the two new guys that has held me up from visiting with you, finally.

I get to a point that I feel I can get away for a day or two, then something happens out of the blue. Like yesterday, one of our tracer lathes went machine down. I had to re-program the PLC controller to switch to an alternate output, since its primary(channel) when to an open-circuit condition. I had it fixed in time to make it to a meeting that I had at 4 o'clock. It never ends...

I think in just going to schedule a day off, so that we can meet. Talk to you soon.

Jeremy

Pics of some of the guys at the meeting

more pics

last pic
left to right
Michel Hodgson, Jerry Peoples, Bob Edwards, Bob Bourque, Harry Schoell,
Chuk Williams, Aubury England, George Nutz, and Frankie Fruge

Harry,
Indeed it was a great meeting of many minds, to think that there were up to 10 particapants in the discussions with all of there independent considerations was very positive. The newer members/board of advisors got a chance to observe all the work you have done with just a few people working with you. You and Frankie ran a great meeting, had the energy and stamina to keep it up for several days. So I am just remembered for my banjo playing ;o) it was fun but the 4 pounds gained due to your constant feeding program has left me a bit heavy of mind.
Please succeed with the smaller engines first that will make a mark for the future investors interested in the high HP stuff. By the way I find Jeremy's work most interesting and may he visit you soon, he will not be disappointed!
Alwasys Best, George Nutz

Hi Harry,

I was speaking with my father today, I mentioned your name. My Dad replied to me, I know who Harry Schoell is, he designed the Infinity Motor yacht.

Then he went on to say, he knows Rolly Stapelton(forgive me if spelling is off), and Rolly's know you, since you were 2 years old.

My dad, Ron Holmes, said Rolly consulted with Harry on a 52footer, that Rolly built for my dad. He then went on to tell me Harry invented the conical delta hull, for Stapleton.

Im starting to think this is a very small world.

Jeremy

What is it that they that we are all linked by 6 people away

Just want to clear it up that George doesn't just sit around and play his banjo. He also gets into his own world on all the calculations necessary. He has been our consulting engineer for a few years now on the ccyclone engine, and we are very grateful. Thanks George for a good job....my mentor
Harry

Guess Its a much-much bigger world than I thought.


Jeremy

[www.fieldlines.com]

At least im pretty sure these people get me.

[www.fieldlines.com]

I distinctly remember reading some sort of Abstact from MIT, about the stumpf uniflow, not the kind of stuff youd find on a google search nowadays. I think it was Jim Crank, George Nutz, Jerry Peoples and Terry somebody, as directors of research(at least the way I remember it,(I was doing these searches many years ago)..

Needless to say, that I was very impressed, with what I read. Back then....


JW

The picture with the X at the end is me, The picture with the z at the end of its title, will hopefully become my in house guy. For now he makes more money working for someone else.

Jeremy

Harry,

I will call Cyclone tech wednesday, of this next upcoming week, before noon.

I will have an injector, copy of the patent, etc. For the visit.

I would like to demonstrate the V V L feature of the valve for you. In the patent, this can be identified, thru the system, of secondary and primary stops.

Im sorry I brought up Stapleton, Harry.

Im not quite sure, if you know this guy and dont like him, or dont know him at all...

Bringing up the 52 footer again,

This one time, I was with my dad and we were on our way to matheson hammock marina from the miami river. We were having a conversation about inventions, in the bridge on the way back. My dad stated to me, if you need all that money, to devlope the damn thing, why would you spend your money on that in the first place. You could spend it on something else. He then went on to say, hell if you want to throw away your money on a patent, its your money, you can do what you want with it.

Anyhow,

Back to the conversation that i was talking about in my reply from earlier. My dad looked at me with a very suprised look, like- 'WOW' this may work out for you. Besides that, I got full approval to have this up coming friday off. It was a very-good conversation.


I was driving around friday afternoon, thinking about the copper-sappire alumium coating we spoke about, on the phone, back about a year ago, for your condencer-plates. Harry call anytime its no problem.

One thing i want to clear for the record, I got the correct pronuciation for Geoge Nutz, pronunciation 'noot-z', from you, in a phone call while speaking. Also I want to say, that when i first arrived here, on the forum, George Nutz was the only member to reach out to me, send an e-mail. It caused me to consider that this place is for real.

Since Ive been married, ive learned, its better, to not sweat the small stuff. No harm no foul.


Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,

What is your patent number? I'd like to look it up. I do have an interest in it.

Also, since I am deep into condenser design, what is the copper-sapphire aluminum coating about. It sounds like another dropwise promoter.

George Nutz is an exceptional good person from my few interactions with him by e-mail and Phorum. I much look forward to meeting him face to face someday. Most everyone that we meet on the Phorum and at the SACA meetings is friendly and of good intent. Sometimes we may not all agree on engineering, math or politics, just ain't no big deal.

Keep up the good work.

Best Regards, ---- Bill G.

Hi Jeremy,

Your dad's view of patents is about the same as mine. The only way to protect a worthwhile invention is to produce & market it better (more quantity and higher value for the price) than anyone else can. If you make and sell as many as there's a market for, at unbeatable value, then potential competitors will study it and stay away because they can't make money, patents or not. If you patent it but don't produce enough at best possible value, then competitors will do basically the same thing a different way -- maybe better. Either way, it's the combination of production, marketing, & value of product that matters, not the patent.

In steam power, there are so many ways to do things that I don't think a patent would do much good, even for a really original idea or design. Less than 1% of patents ever get to commercial production.

I might still patent an invention, once it is in profitable production, just to put useful information about it in the public record. During development, some secrecy is a good idea if it looks like the idea might have future commercial potential.

Peter





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2008 06:45PM by Peter Brow.

Hi Bill,

My patent# is, US 6,928,992 B1

The coper sappire alu coating is somewhat of an anodizing process. Its designed to promote the use of a remote zinc, in a steam conderser assembly. Also the coating itself, has a better, more-dense thermodynamic heat transfer rating, than the aluminum itself.

Peter,

Im actually filling for another patent, thats what the meeting last tuesday was all about. This is not a steam related patent.

My dad knows some really smart people, actually he is somewhat of a financial genius, thats why he shoots down the whole steam engine idea. I hear things from him, like, if gasoline was 8 bucks a gallon, i would still be happy with it.

It goes back to the whole creating the market share out of thin air, thing.

Best to all


Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,
I have been very good friends with Stapelton he is a good guy no problem did some work for him. Will try to call you I am going out of town on Wednesday be back on friday. Would like to see what you have.
Patents are necessary. If what you have is good enough. If it is a week patent and is commercialey viable of course you will have to defend it. With out protection and without deep pockets and a large market, manufacturing is a pipe dream. Unless it is a hobby.
Harry

Harry,

This is what im saying.

"manufacturing is a pipe dream."

I agree, if someone had the incentive, to go into full production, they could absolutely blow the doors off, one-off pricing, using mass production.

Take Henry Ford for example, there was no market for low cost automobles. He created that market.

Take computers,

Back in the 70's a computer was hailed as a joke, only as fortune 500 companys play things.

Look at where we are today, anythings possible, mass-production, computers for everthing we own.

I look forward to meeting on friday if possible. I figure, that your not that far from me, maybe an hours drive, around noon would work. If not, monday would be ok.

Jeremy

'NOTE' to the reader.

The Cyclone engine does not feature any primary electrical circuits, to make the engine run. Such as an electromagnetic injection valve.

As Harry has pointed out to me in phone calls, thats one more thing to go wrong. Purely mechanical systems are more reliable.

Although I somewhat agree with this, I feel electromagnetic actuation is far-far more accurate.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

There is a situation now with the latest Congressional wet dream of super high mileage that may be a key to reintroducing steam as a viable substitute for any of the other proposed automobile engines.
Fuel cells and hydrogen are way into the future, providing they even can be accomplished at a price the car buyer can afford. Very doubtful in my mind.

Forcing the Detroit companies to use small heavily turbocharged engines to meet this mileage standard is going to produce lousy cars for us. Then, when the buyers laugh them off the market, what is Detroit going to use? They have no backup.
If the buyers refuse to have such cars, the dealers cannot sell them and the makers will not make them and Congress be damned, laws or no laws.
Unless there is a very satisfactory substitute engine available, there is going to be a mass upheaval in our car Industry.
The Rankine cycle engine can be a successful alternate, if it is done right and the Cyclone, to my mind, is the only one that shows great promise.

The important fact that Congress simply cannot understand, is that being oil independent and reducing or eliminating CO2 is much more important than mileage.
Congress has taken the simplistic approach, focusing on mileage, since they cannot comprehend the scope of the car propulsion problem. It is only the usual naive political approach.
Reducing fuel mileage is nothing more than a temporary placebo, what is needed is a good and commercially viable substitute engine.

Where the fuel comes from and what it costs the motorist is going to establish the fuel for the near term future and that will dictate the actual engine.
Right now, there is tremendous activity in making plant derived oil fuel. Only the Diesel and the steam engine can use this fuel, the gas engine cannot use it.
The Diesel, while a nice engine, has serious soot and NOX problems that only one very expensive exhaust system can help. Politically it is still considered to be a dirty engine. That is why we can't buy one in California right now.
Alcohol, E-85, is not energy efficient to produce, still produces CO2 in both its production and in the car exhaust, gets rotten mileage and is not a good fuel for a lot of reasons. Nice for race cars; but not for passenger cars.

Harry now can achieve 23% efficiency, with probably 24-28% in the near future. That is better than any gas car with an automatic transmission.
The Cyclone can burn pure bio fuel oils now and as clean as possible. Low firebox pressure and long term fuel particle residence time in the burner eliminates most pollution. Using secondary air keeps the flame temperature below 2300°F and eliminates NOX. The steamer can be cleaner than any other fuel burning engine.

When Harry does his dyno runs and proves the endurance and technical success of the Cyclone, then I am putting one in a sports car and sending it all over to the "Green" car shows and anywhere else that would benefit his company.
If nothing else, this will at least show that a successful clean steam car is possible and a most satisfactory car to drive.

The hard nut to crack is the fact that when the "Clean Air" car projects in the past totally crashed with no running cars, Detroit turned their backs on steam with a vengeance. To them, steam simply does not exist. Bob Lutz told me that in conversation one night at dinner.
I intend to do whatever I can to reverse this thinking. That is why I have completely abandoned what I was doing to support Harry and the Cyclone engine.

Jim





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2008 10:45AM by James D. Crank.

Hi Jeremy

"Back in the 70's a computer was hailed as a joke, only as fortune 500 companys play things."

That's just plain wrong. In the 70's many small companies had computers. All the major air lines had computerized reservation systems. It was not mass production that brought computers to the masses. It was large scale integration. It was the micro computer that brought the price down. The main frames I worked on during the 60's and 70's cost more for one day's electric bill then what you can buy a decent home computer for today. The KL-10 had 3" power cables running to it. Home computer today have more raw computational power then most mainframes of the 70’s. In the early 70's I worked for Cerritos collage. We used a computer for class registration and record keeping. I guess that keeping track of student grades, generating transcripts and class bookings so they weren’t over booked is a joke t you. Try processing 16,000 students through registration in 2 days by hand. Cerritos is a small community collage. We also used the computer for generating reports used to justify funding. For example we got more money for vocational students. Anyone taking a vocational class like auto body, mechanics, data processing courses like key punching, etc could be classified as vocational. Cerritos had and used computers from the early 60’s. When I started there in 1964 they had two computers: An IBM 1440 used by administration and an LPG-30 in the Math and Science department. The minuet man missile had an on board computer guidance system in the 60’s. It was the development of the integrated circuit that brought the cost of all electronic down. And of course there are some that think we found semiconductor technology at Roswell. But we had crystal radios before Roswell.

“Purely mechanical systems are more reliable” Statistically that’s is not the case. Electro-mechanical systems can have feed back that adjusts for system aging . You can have triple redundant systems that self check them selves. Reliable systems comes from good engineering. The problem with electromagnetic valves is speed of operation, their power consumption and heat. The inertia driven magnetically latched valve address the heat and power consumption problems. By using spring driving inertia valves that use a small holding current to hold the valve in the open or closed state the power requirement is reduced considerably and less heat is generated by the magnets coil. Electro-mechanical devices are generally no more accurate then a pure mechanical system. But with feed back, either system can be made more accurate. I think though the electrical system has some advantages when it comes to feed back. Mainly you are not restricted by geometry with electronics.

Murphy’s law applies: If there is any one thing that can go wrong not accounted for in your design, it will go wrong. Reliability comes from the correct application of Murphy’s law.

Andy

Hi Jim.

So far there have been a lot of clam’s. But no proof. I have met Harry and I think he is honestly trying. Your backing is a positive sign. But I am from Missouri, the show me state, and would still like to see proof of the efficiency clamed. The way I look at it: If you measured that efficiency then you should have data to back it up. Not producing that data leaves me a skeptic, as it should anyone.

Hay! I got a 110% efficient engine design. Come give me money.

No! I don't. That’s my point. Talk's cheap.

Jim, Have you personally seen proof of that efficiency?

Andy

How do I get rid of Murphy

Murphy was misquoted. He never really said that.

Harry, is the 23% efficiency total, from the tank to the dyno? I'm assuming you were around at the time, just to see what those Cyclone raskals were doing. LOL

23% sounds about right for starters from what engine thermo parameters I know of. About 30% + engine efficiency with boiler and pumping losses. Tuning should push it up another couple-three percent. How are the Peek rings holding up?

Keep up the great work. Maybe someday, you, I, and Peter will have a car race. Wouldn't that be fun?

Best Regards, ------- Bill G.

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