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Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design

Posted by Bill Gatlin 
Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
August 29, 2023 08:21AM
Wondering the reason that there isn't a Freon steam car? Think about the condensing design as compared with a non-condensing version.
Sometimes (most times) to get efficiency, the cost is high.

However, according to the article, there was a naphtha steam launch by my hero Ofeldt.

The secret is to use the same working fluid as the heat source (burning).
Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
August 29, 2023 09:19AM

Very ingenious idea,...using the fuel as the working fluid. No need for a condenser.

No argument, adding a condenser for a closed loop steam system is adding complexity, but still seems quite doable. One of the main reasons Freons are used in air conditioning system is because Freons don't need to dissipate a large number of BTUs to change state from a vapor back into a liquid. A 3 stage turbine using R123 as the working fluid injects the vapor through the steam nozzles at 500 psi and 400o F; the vapor exits the 3rd stage at nearly ambient temperature and pressure,...very few BTUs need to be removed to turn the vapor back into a liquid. A typical automotive radiator dissipates 1500 BTU/minute, so I'm thinking a condenser somewhat smaller than a typical automotive radiator should work just fine.
Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
August 29, 2023 10:07AM
The Naptha launch is an interesting power plant. Very few (like 3) survive in museums today. Naptha is gasoline with no additives. The working fluid was also the fuel and ran a 3 cyl single acting engine. I have always wanted to play with one and see how well or unwell they work.

They came into existance due to laws forcing steam powered boats to have to have a licensed steam engineer aboard. Seems boiling gasoline wasn't seen as a safety hazard! eye popping smiley hot smileyspinning smiley sticking its tongue out
Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
August 29, 2023 07:39PM
boatbum Wrote:
> <snip>
> Seems boiling gasoline wasn't
> seen as a safety hazard! eye popping smiley hot smileyspinning smiley sticking its tongue out

In the world of ORC engines a few highly flammable fluids are used as both refrigerants and working fluids;
R-50 = Methane
R-170 = Ethane
R-600 = Butane
R-601 = Pentane

Now, to be fair, the heat source for the above list is typically solar, or some other non-flame source. Still, I personally would not want to be too near a monotube boiler full of hot Butane vapor.
Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
August 30, 2023 08:24AM
You seam pretty technically savvy. This is another method of using the working fluid as the fuel, water. The water would be broken down to hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis.

The attached pics are what I reviewed with a doctor in chemistry to see if feasible. My father who was a medical doctor with strong chemistry background recommended this process.

What do you think ...?

Something to think about and hope you enjoy the technical review.


Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
August 30, 2023 10:43AM
The whole idea behind naptha launches was to sell to a bigger audience. In a number of states, you had to obtain an engineer's license to operate a small steam launch legally. This is asking an awful lot from someone who just wants to putt putt around the lake a dozen times a year with his family. Then Ofeldt noticed that the laws specifically referred to STEAM, i.e., vaporized water. There was no mention of vaporizing your fuel and using it as a thermodynamic working fluid in the engine. Hence, the naptha launch was born, and advertisements mentioned that you needed no license to operate (even if the whole thing was a bit more risky than steam). Whether the authorities didn't amend the laws because they didn't notice, didn't wish to take the effort, or were simply horrified at what someone might invent if they went after naptha power plants, is unknown. But, they were quite well-built, and there were few incidents. I always wondered about the tradeoffs. Contaminated water can produce deposits that lead to boiler tube failure -- which wouldn't be an issue with naptha. On the other hand, overheating naptha would lead to decomposition on the tubes which could lead to failure -- not an issue with water. We have to assume that they did a good job of temperature control.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2023 10:45AM by frustrated.
Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
August 30, 2023 08:13PM

First, looking at the boiler diagram it appears the H and O gases released via electrolysis are not separated but are collected in the same chamber; yes?

Second, the general idea of generating heat by burning Hydrogen and Oxygen which was produced thru electrolysis will certainly produce BTUs, however, the overall system must still follow the 1st law of thermodynamics; ie, you can't get more energy out than is put in. No matter how much more efficient electrolysis is when used with supper heated water, the amount of energy required for the electrolysis process will always be greater than the amount of energy obtained from burning the Hydrogen and Oxygen. The Gibbs system you've described would likely produce no more BTU than if the electrical power used to perform the electrolysis were instead used to directly heat a coil of wire.
Re: Toward Bill G.'s new boiler design
September 07, 2023 07:55AM
Hi Dusty,

A savoy review...thank you.

I sometimes present this concept here and there to get input on the idea. I'm still developing and researching to see how it can be realized. Some testing on a prototype will say a lot for its performance. I do plan to do this after I get my 10 HP Stanley built. I'll be incorporating some of my ideas on this build with an Ofeldt boiler, infrared burner and a flash tube feeding the boiler. We'll see how it comes out.

It is easy to speculate on the outputs, from inputs and efficiencies based on technical knowledge. What I've learned is that one needs to perform testing of the concept to see how it actually reacts. From my experience with engineering (I got my BSME engineering degree in 1984) that the proof is in the pudding. You always need to revise your calculations and figuring after testing...always! Clean sheet designs take a long time to develop and to run.

This baby took me 9 years to develop and get running. Enjoy!

Rick's Scooter Running

I encourage you to do the same. Try it, you'll like it? Make something and talk about it. Great credibility goes to the one who tries and fails. Then keeps trying and succeeds. Even if to result in the first attempt at learning (FAIL). I give outstanding credit. Good luck!

Kind regards,
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