1901 mason engine mod c

My Mason engine would not run would only rotate 1/4 turn then stop. when using the reversing link would do the same. It ran well before and started to get worse over time. Checked the d valve surface was good. used air compressor with 150 psi. removed the top head and poured some water into each cylinder. the water was bubbling from the air from below. This happened on both sides. It looks like rings to me. So now I have to make rings. I've done this before. The rings used are two per piston, both have an inner ring inside the outer ring on both. I have not seen this before. when making rings how much oversize should it be and how much should the gap be. I will be honing the cylinders. Should I make them oversize ( how much) then gap them.

does anyone know of a supplier of rings for the mason engine? It would be a little faster than making them.

Hey Rolly what do you think?

I just bought some cast iron rings from Auto Diesel
Last year. Cleveland Ohio 216-781-5200

I’m not sure about the engine pull the valve covers and see if the nuts have backed off letting the valves move on the valve rods. I’ve fixed two Stanley engines this happened to.

Rolly

Hi Rolly I tried to call your cell this morning but the call did not go thru did you change your number. I checked the d valve and rod which look good I did a leak test using air on the bottom of the cylinder with some water on top of the piston and there were a lot of bubbles. This tells me the rings have blow-by. Not sure if auto diesel would have rings that wide.
What would be the correct ring gap for a 2.5" piston?
I may have caused the problem when I installed the superheater, not enough steam oil. using 680 weight...
This engine has an inner ring and an outer ring two per piston. The inner ring is butt gaped and the outer is stepped gaped. can I butt gap both inner and outer rings? It makes it easier to do it this way.

Auto diesel makes rings any way you want them. Quick turnaround time.
Most, I should say all steam engines I have rebuilt have always used lapped joint rings.
I have never had a problem using Mobil SHC 634 Synthetic Gear and bearing oil
It has the same ratings as Steam cylinder oil.

Are your eccentrics keyed, did any of then slip and move?

Rolly

Rolly,
I checked the eccentrics they appear to be correct.

How do you make a step gap in piston rings. The mason used an inner and outer ring. One inside the other. The inner is butt gaped and the outer is step gaped. Is the step gap needed can it be butt gaped.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2022 08:11AM by jjtjr.

Hi JJ,
Are the piston rings in the middle of the piston? Or are they at each end of the piston?

Testing my understanding that there is 2 - Rings with an inner ring and outer ring nested...correct.

Note that my good friend Tony Grzyb has a Mason Engine on his Delora Buggy. As reference, his engine has 2-rings per piston and are at each end of the piston (not in the middle). I have a 10 HP Stanley Engine with the 2-piston rings that are tied together with 2-small cylindrical springs and are located in the middle of the piston. They are an angle cut.

Tony's Mason uses a normal ICE piston ring where you spiral the ring into the ring grove. This can be done because the ring groove is close to the end of the piston. In my opinion, this is a sound ring set-up.

Hope this helps,
Rick

The Gap rings I have been using on the 10 HP Stanley engines from Auto Diesel are as shown
in the photo.
years ago when i made my own rings the offset was twice as long.

Rolly

Years ago my friend Jimmie Webster cast up a lot of two foot long cylinders of ¾ inch thick Mennonite for piston rings from 3 inches to 12 inches in diameter. He had two complete sets of Navy steam engines. There were six to eight engines in each set. Before he died he gave one complete set to Mystic Sea port. I have never seen them on display, but when asked at Mystic one day I was told they were in the engine storage house and shown by apparent only.
Jim rebuilt a few engines for some of his steam boats, all with step gap joints.
We had more Mennonite for rings then we would ever use.

Rolly

Yes they are in the middle of the piston. The two rings sit on top of each other.

JJ,
I'm quite confused with the piston ring on top of piston ring. I wonder if this is some type of failure? This could be the reason for the limited piston travel...perhaps. Maybe the piston rod end bolt/nut was loose and there was a head crash. The compressed piston might have stacked the piston rings and appears to be made that way. My thought is that it makes no sense to design it that way. I would recommend a rebuild to assure good future operation.

Based on Rolly's recommendation to contact Auto Diesel, I just spoke with Jen in Sales. I plan on buying a set of piston rings for my 10 HP. I'll be emailing her tonight when I get on my home computer. Note that the website is:

Auto Diesel

If this helps, I plan on ordering cast iron rings. Not sure I'm ready to pull the trigger just yet. They have a $350 set up fee plus the cost of the rings. I'm going to explore all my options. I do own a Hardinge precision lathe and might make my own...we'll see. I'm a little bit away from having my new machine shop completely insulated and set up. My rings need to be 3.00 inch DIA X 1/4 inch wide and diagonal cut which might be made off some cast iron pipe or something like that.

The unfortunate thing is we cannot combine set-up cost. Your bore and ring size is 2-1/2 Inch DIA. Another option would be to contact Billy Barnes. Not sure what that would cost.

Hope this helps,
Rick

What my piston and rings look like.

I ended up making rings from cast iron. Long lead time from AD. Which i had from my last ring making. The question is what should the ring gap be. I can find info for ice engines but not for steam engines. I know there is a difference. Ice engine say depending on the type of engine ( racing or street) the gap should be from .004 to .006 per inch of bore. But cant find about steam. Whats your idea ?

You have to know the expansion per foot of the type of material the rings are made of.
Take the circumference and calculate the max temperature and the expansion your running at and add 0.002

Rolly

Hey Rolly,
Did some quick calculations. This is what I came up with Dia. (D0) Of ring is 2.50"
Coef of cast iron is 6.3 x 10-6
I used a delta T of 500 degs F superheat


There for using this formula d1=d0 (dt a+1)

I get a circumference change = .0247
D1= 2.508
Then if I add .002" that would give .0267"
Thats means i need a .027" gap rounding up.
Does that sound correct to you.
Thanks

Jim
I’m at the public library My computer died.
Most all original steam engines I have worked on have had step joints on the rings, in fact I can’t remember any that didn’t. depending on the size of the ring I would just add ¼ to 3/8 or a ½ inch to the circumference and leave .002 or 3 in the gap.
All the Stanley engines I have worked on have two rings in the same groove and the gaps 180 degrees apart. Then the two pistons are tighten against each other. Four ring per piston total.
See photo attached.

Rolly

Hi John,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I'm planning on using a piston to cylinder wall clearance of .006/side. My original clearance was almost twice that. The reason I was told is that the Stanley engines were design to be loose. Also, I'm not sure of the process capabilities back in 1904. Maybe Rolly can shed some light on this. My cylinder measures 3.003 - 3.004. The other thing is that I understand my 10 HP Stanley flexis quite abet. The center piston ring gives best performance in lieu of this challenge. I also plan on stiffening my engine frame.

I cannot recall the ring groove dimensions. However, I plan to use the same and replicate them on my new pistons I'm making.

I owe Billy Barnes a call. He had asked me to perform the strain calculation for Aluminum pistons, the thermal expansion relationship between piston and cylinder. The strain times the piston diameter gives the overall expansion.

I'm interested to know what cast iron you're using...is it Sched 40 pipe? I also plan on running in things with liberal graphite all around. This could lead to a whole other discussion.

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,
Rick

I purchased a 2.5" bar stock from mcmaster carr of fine grain cast iron.

The other thing is that I understand my 10 HP Stanley flexis quite abet. The center piston ring gives best performance in lieu of this challenge. I also plan on stiffening my engine frame.

All Stanley engines Flex way to much.

I have built new box frames for both the 10 H and 20 H engines.
The frame plates are water jet cut. The frame rod holes are cut under size and finished bored on the mill. If I had known how accurate water jut cutting was, I would have water jet them as well.
The link up hubs are welded on.

Rolly

Sorry Jim...I said John

All files from this thread

File Name	File Size		Posted by	Date
Piston Ring.jpg	335 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/19/2022	Read message
IMG_1170.JPG	117.5 KB	open | download	Rick.H	01/20/2022	Read message
IMG_1172.JPG	135.7 KB	open | download	Rick.H	01/20/2022	Read message
IMG_1173.JPG	127.9 KB	open | download	Rick.H	01/20/2022	Read message
IMG_1174.JPG	148.7 KB	open | download	Rick.H	01/20/2022	Read message
IMG_1175.JPG	102.1 KB	open | download	Rick.H	01/20/2022	Read message
piston and cover-a.jpg	188.1 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/24/2022	Read message
water cut plates. .jpg	156.1 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/27/2022	Read message
new frame on welding table.JPG	194 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/27/2022	Read message
on work bench.JPG	136.5 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/27/2022	Read message
Frame rods.JPG	480.7 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/27/2022	Read message
finished engine test run.JPG	197.9 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/27/2022	Read message