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Presented Without Comment

Posted by frustrated 
Presented Without Comment
May 20, 2021 05:30AM

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2021 12:48PM by frustrated.
Re: Presented Without Comment
May 21, 2021 06:56AM
In the past I have advocated looking into the scroll compressor to be used in reverse as an expander. Now the industry is starting to build them large enough to make it possible. Maybe using two?
Copeland: 30-hp Scroll Compressor
The new Copeland Scroll 30-horsepower compressor (ZR380) delivers 380,000 Btuh and is said to be the world's largest scroll compressor for use in commercial applications.

Or you could still use the old technology and gang two 30 HP Stanley blocks together or a couple of 20 HP Nergaards piston valve blocks with one of my Box frames. In tandem. or several SACA members have more then one Bryan piston valve engines that have never been used.

Re: Presented Without Comment
May 21, 2021 09:16AM
Hi Rolly,

You are sure getting mellow! I was looking forward to reading your comments on their Reliable steam engine, plus that boiler design!


Re: Presented Without Comment
May 21, 2021 11:46AM
I’m not sure witch Reliable steam engine your referring to. If it’s there impulse turbine I did not spend any time looking at it. I’ve had several turbines, single and two stage that I have removed from power plants, they use a lot of steam.
I’m not in favor of single acting engines. Although the one Chuck used did very well.
I always wondered how much blow by it had.
I think the Scroll expander would make a great engine.
I must have missed the boiler design.
Re: Presented Without Comment
May 21, 2021 12:48PM
Hi Rolly,

I probably didn't make the first message too clear. If you go back to the top, you will find that you can click on the hyperlink and go to the website of this LSR team.


Re: Presented Without Comment
May 21, 2021 02:17PM
Thanks Ken
I missed that link.

If the four cylinder single acting engine shown is what he is using they have way two much blow buy, can’t keep oil in the crankcase.

Crag Standbridge SACA-NE had one in a small pickup. I believe he sold the engine from the SACA Bulletin years ago, or it was advertised there.

I am not on face book



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2021 02:23PM by Rolly.
Re: Presented Without Comment
May 26, 2021 05:24AM
Is this the Team you are referring to...post on Facebook and under the Flash boilers & steam generators. Hydrogen Fired Steam Land Speed Record

presented by Bob Sarda

Re: Presented Without Comment
May 26, 2021 08:30AM
Hi Rick,

It certainly is. Bob called one night and I tried to explain how the Reliable steam engine can never drive a Mazda to 200 mph -- it couldn't even provide the power to drive Chuk's streamliner, which is far smaller and more aerodynamic. This is no knock on the Reliable engine -- it seems to do exactly what it was intended to do -- and it was never intended to do anything even vaguely like this. This was before I found out they contemplate operating at 3,000 psi; that is so far outside the intended use that the most reasonable outcome is that the engine simply comes apart.

It was only later that I saw the boiler. It seems to lack an adequate amount of tubing for the job (figure 500 HP, at an optimisitic dead minimum, is necessary to drive that car to 200) and the structure is such that most of the heat will probably go up the stack without interacting with the boiler coils. For some reason no one actually explains, they seem convinced that burning hydrogen will make everything work better. Of course, fuel is relatively unimportant because a tube can only absorb just so much heat before reaching Departure from Nucleate Boiling.

I just wish that these folks had started out by coming to the Berrien Springs meets to see how real hardware was built, and to talk with people who had researched the matter in detail -- not that this necessarily would guarantee success, but it would have at least ruled out certain failure.


Re: Presented Without Comment
May 27, 2021 05:37AM
Do you have the particulars to compare Chuk's engine to this one, i.e. No. cylinders, bore, stroke, valve type etc. Also, Chuk's tubing size(s) and linear feet compared to Bob's 360 ft 3/4" Sched 80?

Re: Presented Without Comment
May 27, 2021 07:06AM
Use of stainless steel

Look up the proprieties of stainless steel. You will find that stainless steels need oxygen to remain corrosion free.

Deny stainless oxygen and it will corrode

The only use in a boiler for stainless is in a supper heater coil, and using the right alloy hear is also important. 316L is about all I can afford but Tp-347H is what is mostly used today in power plant design.

Chlorides are the big problem when using the 300 series grades of stainless steel. The 300 series is the one most commonly used in the process industry because of its good corrosion resistant proprieties. Outside of water, chloride is the most common chemical found in nature and remember that the most common water treatment is the addition of chlorine.

300 series stainless steel passivates its self by forming a protective chrome oxide layer when ever it is exposed to free oxygen.

Deny stainless oxygen and it will corrode

Another reason not to use it is its high coefficient of expansion.

I am not entirely comfortable with the use of stainless for the construction of a boiler.
Stainless needs oxygen to remain corrosion free.

Oxygen and the chrome form a protective chrome oxide layer to remain corrosion free.
Deny stainless oxygen and it will corrode and this is what your doing inside a boiler.

Low carbon iron pipe on the other hand is corrosion free when denied oxygen.

Chlorides are the big problem when using the 300 series grades of stainless steel. Outside of water, chloride is the most common chemical found in nature and remember that the most common water treatment is the addition of chlorine.

The only use in a boiler for stainless is in a super heater coil, and using the right alloy hear is also important. 316L is about all I can afford, the last time a bought 3/8 pipe it was over $12 per foot.
Tp-347H is what is mostly used today in power plant super heater design but I can’t afford it, and I’ve never found it in any of the supply houses I deal with.

Another reason not to use it is its high coefficient of expansion. A lot of care is required to design so as not to create stress on other parts of the boiler.
Re: Presented Without Comment
May 27, 2021 08:26AM
Hi Rick,

I don't have that many particulars on hand for Chuk's (well Art Gardiner's and Jim Tangeman's) engine. I don't recall that information being in the article I wrote on the LSR car, but that was something like 7 years ago and my memory is a bit foggy given everything written since. The PSL engine is a 3 cylinder, single-acting, counterflow unit with poppet valves. It was derived from a 3-cylinder Chrysler 2-stroke engine, with the cylinders being resleeved so as to eliminate the uniflow porting. The largest 3 cylinder engine Chrysler built was rated at 85 horses, so the 100 horsepower rating Art put on it is well within the design envelope -- especially because the planned use involved relatively few run hours. I also have no particular data on the LSR boiler -- it doesn't have that many feet of tubing, but that's because Chuk used finned tube in a lot of its construction. As I recollect, a foot of finned tube in that general diameter has about 8 to 10 times the surface area as a foot of standard tube.

If Chuk doesn't respond in a day or two, I'll write and ask him to comment.


Re: Presented Without Comment
May 27, 2021 08:47AM
Hi Rolly,

You said: "Deny stainless oxygen and it will corrode."

That's exactly why I never saw stainless in Navy steam systems!

I'm sure the follwing is old news to you, but I might as well toss it out for anyone else who is interested. The ships I worked with contained DFTs (Deaerating Feed Tanks) whose mission was primarily to remove air from the feed water with a secondary purpose of storing preheated feed for introduction to the steam generator. The fact that a significant chunk of valuable powerplant space was dedicated to the DFT tells you how important the designers felt it was to get oxygen out of the steam system. Systems that could not sacrifice the space to include a DFT typically added hydrazine to the feed water to remove free oxygen -- it does this by giving up its hydrogen to the oxygen, forming water, with relatively harmless nitrogen being released. Morpholine is currently being phased out due to fears that it might be carcinogenic if exposure occurs long term, but there are replacements that are deemed safter.

Beyond that, we also added morpholine to the feed water in order to adjust pH to further limit corrosion. Morpholine is neat stuff because it has about the same volatility as water and therefore is not trapped in the steam generator when the water boils -- it also decomposes very slowly in the absence of oxygen at high temperature and pressure.

Anyhow, controlling water chemistry is why industrial scale steam plants run almost continuously for decades with little problem while hobbyist systems fail in a small fraction of the same operating hours.


Re: Presented Without Comment
May 27, 2021 09:39AM
As a point of comparison to the Doble F (via Jim Crank's Book)

BTU: 3,414,840 by calculation (~3.5 MBTU)
Water rate: 2,860 lb/hr
Tube Length: 480 ft
Square ft Tube: 110 ft^2

Generation rate: 26 lb/ft^2*hr and I would venture that this would be close to a land speed record car if correct vehicle design applied. As another interesting point of reference, the model steam hydroplane boat has a generation rate of 126 lb/ft^2*hr.

Bob's 360 ft equates to ~70 ft^2 of generating surface area. I think he is holding back information on purpose.

Ken, the question is that can this generating coil do the job?

Re: Presented Without Comment
May 27, 2021 09:40AM
On that topic, I remember a navy inspector explaining to a worker on a nuclear submarine that he needed to replace a large number of stainless steel washers on a flange with nickel copper ones. The worker wasn't happy.

Lohring Miller
Re: Presented Without Comment
May 27, 2021 10:56AM
Hi Rick

Bob's goal is to hit 200 mph. A C-7 ZR-1 Corvette could just nudge past 200 using a 638 HP LS9 engine. The Mazda is a little smaller, but not drastically -- and heaven only knows about the drag coefficient. Let's assume he needs 500 HP. The Doble was really powerful in its day, but would be extremely unremarkable today. The estimated horsepower numbers jiggle all over the place but 150 is probably a good estimate considering the steam generated and the need for longer cutoff. Note that the Doble is only 3/4 as powerful as the 353 Detroit Diesel conversion contemplated by the LSR team working out of Canada and thereabouts -- they are planning on 200 MPH and need 200 HP -- in a streamliner body.

Now, the Doble has 110 square whereas Sarda has 70 -- let's call it about 64 percent of the surface area. Everything else being equal, the Sarda boiler has enough surface area to construct a Doble boiler putting out about 95 HP, which is about what Chuk's system was rated at. Of course, the Doble had a compound engine whereas the Sarda is a simple engine, so we know he's likely to use quite a bit more steam per horsepower -- so let's say the tubing in that boiler can give his engine 60 HP, or about 12 percent of what he needs.

This is ignoring the actual boiler design. The Doble boiler used stacks of pancakes with the tube spacing in each pancake being designed to force hot gasses to interact with the coils -- thereby transferring heat effectively. We see nothing like this on the Sarda boiler, those coils are essentially big tubes that gasses can flow down without much impediment. Even if he does flow gas outwards through these tubes, there are no coils outside of those tubes to trap heat -- meaning he can't get a counterflow between combustion gasses and water/steam.

To make all of this worse, he is using a piston valve engine and claiming he will operate at 3000 psi. The Dutcher compound automotive engine operated at far less pressure. Because it was a compound, the HP cylinder had a much higher MEP than you would find in something like a single cylinder uniflow. Dutcher was encountering unacceptable amounts of blowby due to this high MEP and was unable to fix the problem by adding rings. The Sarda engine is going to have a long cutoff due to the piston valve design, so matters are going to get worse. Well, piston valves themselves are going to leak badly at those pressures. Of course, this is all academic because the engine would fail long before achieving those pressures. If it did survive the pressure, it would fail internally -- the crankshaft is definitely not designed for high performance (and why would it be?) Anyhow, all this leaking increases steam demand even further.

So, based on just surface area, his boiler might be able to push a small streamliner similar in size to Chuk's fast enough to set a land speed record -- but not fast enough to hit 200 mph. This is predicated on having a much better engine than the one shown. Viewed as a totality of its parts, the thing is unlikely to come close to those Vanderbilt Cup racers that are floating around.


Re: Presented Without Comment
May 28, 2021 07:56AM
Maybe this is a place to re publish the pipe tube and steal used in boiler construction. As published by the ASME
Common Boiler Tube Specifications

ASME Spec. ASME Grade ERW or Smls. Description Typical uses
SA-178 A ERW Low carbon steel - C=0.18 max. Boiler tubes, economizers, low temp. superheaters
SA-178 C ERW Medium carbon steel - C=0.35 max. Boiler tubes, economizers, low temp. superheaters
SA-178 D ERW Carbon-manganese steel - C=0.27 max Not in common use
SA-192 Smls. Low carbon steel - C=0.18 max Waterwalls, economizers, low temp. superheaters
SA-210 A1 Smls. Medium carbon steel - C=0.27 max. Waterwalls, economizers, superheaters
SA-210 C Smls. Medium carbon steel - C=0.35 max. Waterwalls, economizers, superheaters
SA-209 T1 Smls. Low alloy steel - low carbon, 1/2% moly Superheaters
SA-209 T1a Smls. Low alloy steel - medium carbon, 1/2% moly Superheaters
SA-209 T1b Smls. Low alloy steel - low carbon, 1/2% moly Superheaters
SA-213 T2 Smls. Intermediate alloy - 1/2% chrome, 1/2% moly Waterwalls, superheaters, not in common use
SA-213 T11 Smls. Intermediate alloy - 1 1/4% chrome, 1/2% moly Waterwalls, superheaters
SA-213 T22 Smls. Intermediate alloy - 2 1/4% chrome, 1% moly Waterwalls, superheaters
SA-213 T5 Smls. Intermediate alloy - 5% chrome, 1/2% moly High temperature superheaters, not in common use
SA-213 T9 Smls. Intermediate alloy - 9% chrome, 1% moly High temperature superheaters, no longer in common use
SA-213 T91 Smls. Intermediate alloy - 9% chrome, 1% moly, 1/4% vanadium High temperature superheaters - the latest and greatest
SA-213 Tp-304 Smls. Stainless steel - 18% chrome, 8% nickel Superheaters
SA-213 Tp-304H Smls. Stainless steel for high temperature service High temperature superheaters
SA-213 Tp-316 Smls. Stainless steel - 16% chrome, 11% nickel Superheaters
SA-213 Tp-316H Smls. Stainless steel for high temperature service High temperature superheaters
SA-213 Tp-321 Smls. Stainless steel - 17% chrome, 9% nickel, 0.60% titanium Superheaters
SA-213 Tp-321H Smls. Stainless steel for high temperature service High temperature superheaters
SA-213 Tp-347 Smls. Stainless steel - 17% chrome, 9% nickel, columbium + tantalum=1.00% max. Superheaters
SA-213 Tp-347H Smls. Stainless steel for high temperature service High temperature superheaters
For boiler tubes, A-178A is the most common, and most economical choice.
Economizers are usually made from SA-178A or SA-210-A1.
Superheater materials vary widely, with SA-178A and SA-192 used most often in the lower temperature ranges. SA-210-A1, SA-213-T11, and SA-213-T22 are commonly seen in the intermediate temperature ranges, with the stainless grades, most frequently Tp-304H and Tp-347H, reserved for the higher temperature superheaters, although SA-213-T91 is increasingly specified for the highest temperatures.The preferred material for most boilers tube is low carbon steel ASTM SA-178 grade A C= 0.18 A-106 is also excepted grade A C= 0.25 Max. Steel plate common for ASTM for boiler construction is SA-285, SA-515 & SA-516

BOILER AND PRESSURE VESSEL STEELS for drums and manifolds end plates and other areas.

SA515 GRADE 55
SA515 GRADE 60
SA515 GRADE 65
SA515 GRADE 70
SA516 GRADE 55
SA516 GRADE 60
SA516 GRADE 65
SA516 GRADE 70
A515 GRADE 55
A515 GRADE 60
A515 GRADE 65
A515 GRADE 70
A516 GRADE 55
A516 GRADE 60
A516 GRADE 65
A516 GRADE 70
A537 CLASS 1
Re: Presented Without Comment
May 30, 2021 10:58AM
One thing I forgot to mention, it must be age related. A-106 seamless pipe is also ASME approved pipe for boiler construction. A-178 is tube sized, A-106 is pipe size pipe.
I built two S stamped boiler with A-106 pipe.


ASTM A106-89 / ASME SA106 Seamless Carbon Steel Pipe for High Temperature Service (ASTM A 106-89 / ASME SA 106 /ASTMA106-89/ASMESA106)

This standard is issued under the fixed designation A 106; the number immediately following the designation indicates the year of original adoption or, in the case of revision, the year of last revision. A number in parentheses indicates the year of last reapproval. A superscript epsilon ( ¥å) indicates an editorial change since the last revision or reapproval.
This specification has been approved for use by agencies of the Department of Defense. Consult the DoD Index of Specifications and Standards for specific year of issue which has been adopted by the Department of Defense.
1.1 This specification covers seamless carbon steel pipe for high-temperature service (Note 1) in NPS 1/8 to NPS 48 inclusive, with nominal 9average0 wall thickness as given is ANSI B36.10. Pipe having other dimensions may be furnished provided such pipe complies with all other requirements of this specification. Pipe ordered under this specification shall be suitable for bending, flanging, and similar forming operations, and for welding. When the steel is to be welded, it is presupposed that a welding procedure suitable to the grade of steel and intended use or service will be utilized (Note 2).
NOTE 1 ¦¡ Consideration should be given to possible graphitization of the material at the higer temperatures at which it may be used.
NOTE 2 ¦¡ Grades A rather than Grades B or Grades C pipe should be used for close coiling, or cold bending. The purpose for which the pipe is to be used should be stated in the order. This note is not intended to prohibit the cold bending of Grades B seamless pipe.
1.2 Supplementary requirements (S1 to S4) of an optional nature are provided for seamless pipe intended for use in applications where a superior grade of pipe is required. These supplementary requirements call for additional tests to be made and when desired shall be so stated in the order.
1.3 When these products are to be used in applications conforming to ISO Recommendations for Boiler Construction, the requirements of Specification A 520 (Mechanical Property Requirements Section) shall supplement and supersede the requirements of this specification.
1.4 The values stated in inch-pound units are to be regarded as the standard.
NOTE 3 ¦¡ The dimensionless designator NPS (nominal pipe size) has been substituted in this standard for such traditional terms as "nominal diameter", "size", and "nominal size".
1.5 The following precautionary caveat pertains only to the test method portion, Sections 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15, of this specification; This standard does not purport to address all of the safety problem, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use.
Chemical composition
Grade Mfg. process Chemical Composition (%)
C Si Mn P S
Gr A S 0.25Max 0.10Min 0.27~0.98 0.025Max 0.025Max
Gr B S 0.30Max 0.10Min 0.29~1.06 0.025Max 0.025Max
Gr C S 0.35Max 0.10Min 0.29~1.06 0.025Max 0.025Max

Mechanical Properties
Grade Tenssile TestMPa or N/mm2 Remarks(Similar to JIS) possibility temperature
MIn. Yield Point Tensile Strength
Gr A 205 330Min (STPG370)
Gr B 240 415Min (STPG410)
Gr C 275 485Min (STPG480)
Re: Presented Without Comment
June 01, 2021 10:17AM

Mr. Bob Sarda has been in touch with me for the past 4-5 years, and all thru that time I have tried to clue him in regarding a few accepted truths regarding steam generation, steam engines, etc. He simply listens to what I have to say and then continues with his own ideas. So I have given up trying to enlighten him and have moved on.

As for a comparison between the engine I used for the LSR Streamliner and the one he's planning to use for his Attempt.....there is no real comparison possible. The engine I used was designed by Art Gardiner, and built by he and Jim Tangeman for an Attempt on the Steam Powered Watercraft Record. It was designed and built to provide 100+HP at a steam pressure of 800psi and a steam temp of 800F, whereas the Reliable engine Sarda intends to use is rated at 40 HP at approx 150psi and probably a max of 400-500F. The Gardiner engine was dyno tested multiple times, and did generate the horsepower and torgue that it was rated to provide. It's performance and reliability during multiple runs on the track at the Ohio Mile and at Bonneville were further proof of its pedigree.

As far as I've gleaned from my conversations with Sarda, his engine hasn't even ran on steam! There are very few(if any!) known piston driven steam engines which would operate successfully at 3000psi, and most certainly that does not include an engine rated for 150psi!

As for the generator Mr. Sarda intends to use for his Attempt....as you can see in the pix-the design of it does not lead one to conclude that whoever designed it knew very much about heat transfer, combustion chamber design, etc, etc.

I suspect that Mr. Sarda will gradually get a bit more acquainted with some of the realities of the hurdles that he will need to overcome as he moves along with his project-so far he hasn't seemed to be very concerned with those realities-so I guess we'll see!

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