Infrared Burner for LSR Boiler

Hello,
I'm starting a new thread on an Infrared (IR) Burner. If you would like some history on some of the LSR boiler design ideas, please refer to Steve's thread on "Force Circulation Boiler". In that thread and performing some simulation using an excel file I created, it is apparent that one needs a lot of heat (BTU) to make the boiler needed for the Land Speed Record (LSR). The basic convection burner just can't stand up to the transfer required to get to the required BTU. Here is the target, 5M BTU in the steam to the engine. Dr. Emmett Brown in Back to the Future, "1.21 gigawatts, where can you get that kind of power?"

So the proposed solution is to go with IR. Two types of IR are needed, in my thinking, one would be a low fuel flow and positioned within a Ofeldt Coil. The other would be a high flow burner into an emitter along the lines of a foundry style burner. This is to transfer heat to a Grzyb Coil. From the forced circulation thread, Ofeldt Coil is a natural circulation tube to and from a separator tube. The Grzyb Coil is a mono-tube generating coil to the separator tube. The ratio of Grzyb to Ofeldt is 3 to 1.

To get the thought process started, I'm attaching some pictures that may explain a lot. To come are some pictures of the prototype I've started working on and hope to have some testing done before the Spring SACA Meet.

Thanks,
Rick

The IR burner I'm working on is for this concept. I would classify it as a low flow burner and without convective heat conduction. In other words just radiant heat transfer.

Rick
About thirty years ago we experimented with radiant burners both ceramic and porous and wire screen.
The problem was they were limited more or less to a fixed amount of fuel. Not quite enough for the space they took up.
Rolly

Thanks Rolly,
Very useful information. The IR burner pictured above is on my side burner on my grill. It must use regulated fuel pressure/flow. Remind me some time to tell the Bacon cooking story.

To begin:
There would be two types of burners, 1) is a low flow, radiant and 2) a high flow with radiation via an emitter along with convection. This part is focusing on number 1.

I happened to have 1-1/8 inch conduit elbow to use for this prototype. On my Ofeldt Burner for my Stanley, I used this same piece(s).

The plan is to use 12 gauge wire to space a fine 304 SS screen around the slits shown. I hope to jump on a tig welder at work, after hours of course, to secure the next assembly.

Another item is that I'll trumpet the inlet end and cut longitudinal slits just past the trumpet to reduce the area. I saw this on a youtube feed and think it a pretty good way to achieve a converging/diverging nozzle. I think this will help with the challenge that Rolly referred to.

I'll post more progress when available.

Kind regards,
Rick

Just a little bit of information for burner No. 2 - high flow with a IR emitter. The design application is attached.

One thing to add on how to achieve the high flow nozzle is to use the water in the bottom of the separator tube. The idea is not new for steam locomotives have used this from the early days to work with heavy fuel oils and to atomize out of a nozzle. This would be a foray into a optional fuel delivery without using an electric blower.

I should mention that the water will instantly go to steam out of the nozzle.

The concept is to get the highest Reynolds No. possible to maximize heat transfer. I have a nozzle example and will post when I get the photo made. The foundry burner and method is the grass roots of this concept.

More on the #2 Burner,

Attached is the concept, not to scale, for the high flow burner with an emitter. This concept is like the foundry burner. Note that this uses the high temperature water in the separator tube from the bottom. The intent is for the water to go to steam instantly. With this prediction and use of the De Laval Nozzle, the planned result is a super high speed convective flow. Plus the emitter will provide superior heat transfer. The higher the Reynolds number (turbulent flow), the better the heat transfer.

I turned a potential nozzle prototype that may fit the bill. As I progress, I'll work out a test.

Also, I tried to simulate what it would be like to fabricate an emitter. Turns out that basic carbon steal provides excellent emitter qualities. SS would provide not so good emitter qualities. Funny, my wife says this little model won't last long with an intense flame. This concept is planned for a cylindrical boiler arrangement. Also would be applicable to an oval cylinder. In an oval cylinder, there may be two (2) burners. Don't forget, we need 1.21 gigawatts (Back to the Future).

Still trying to push the envelope for heat transfer. Note that the de laval nozzle is isentropic and adiabatic (my favorate word). Reason I'm saying this is that it does not drain energy from the system that much. Much better situation than having an external battery pack and or gas generator to produce the blower air flow. In other words, the LSR vehicle might require a gas engine-generator for the blower to achieve the Reynolds number...not sitting well with me.

Kind regards,
Rick

#1 Burner - Low Flow IR

Today, going to Harbor Freight to buy an exhaust ex pander and exhaust crimp er to make the De Laval Nozzle. I'm using this nozzle here also to increase the pressure to the IR portion on this burner.

As one can see that a standard bear making burner uses the same converging - diverging nozzle...for the same reason.

Note that this fabrication technique will be employed for the High Flow Burner, same size.

My first test will be to just see how propane burns in this as-is. We should see a blue flame like I achieved with my Ofeldt Burner. Like the Ofeldt, I may have to put an up steam resistor plate...not sure. I'm confident I'll figure it out though.

Off for fun stuff today...

Kind regards,
Rick

Progress report...

I formed the De Laval nozzle using the tools pictured. For testing purposes, I used tape to cover up the slits not closed up.

The first test is to see if I can get blue flame with propane. First try is with plumber's puddy. I guess it burns at higher temperatures. So I just put my cover on and used a rock to hold it down. Seemed to work pretty good.

Next step is to wrap the fine SS mesh around the slots and see if I can achieve the infrared color. Looking for that red color. We'll keep you posted. Everything gets welded when I prove out the working concept. Don't forget that this burner gets up close and personal with the natural circulation Ofeldt Coils.

Let me know if any questions.

Kind regards,
Rick

Here is a chap using a radiant burner for model steam power. Might be of interest Rick

[www.southernsteamtrains.com]

Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2020 03:37PM by Mike Clark.

Hi Mike,
Thank you so much for that excellent reference! The gentleman's name is Kevin O'Connor and he sounds like he is right on track with this concept. I think that a lot of people don't realize the huge benefit to going to IR in a burner. He has significant proof of concept. Plus I like his ideas about the way to achieve the Red color with use of SS mesh.

I think it's worth while to tell the Bacon Story. So I did a relatively controlled experiment with Bacon. The constants were 1 lb bacon on the blue flame natural gas burner in my old Kitchen. Then 1 lb bacon on the side IR burner on my Sears Barbecue Grill. This is the burner pictured above. Here is what I didn't believe...

The equation for Radiation Heat transfer can be represented as follows:

q/A = Sigma * T**4, This is meaning that BTU per square inch can be determined by the Stefan-Boltzmann constant times the surface temperature of the emitter to the 4th power. The 4th power makes this heat transfer insane and much more efficient than convection.

Back to the bacon experiment. Note that I used a Black Skillet (emissivity of 1) for both and the only diffidence is natural gas related to propane. I can not argue that propane has greater energy content than that of natural gas. However the kicker is that the burner in the kitchen was on High. The burner on the grill was on Low.

The results are that the center of the bacon strip burn to a crisp charcoal before the ends even got cooked on the IR burner. Sorry, no pictures of the results. The kitchen stove produced a much more even cooking result. Note that I used a SS screen splatter protector to cut down on the mess. I have a wife that doesn't take kindly to experiments like this in the kitchen

Kind regards,

Rick

Rick, I know I've been absent for a good while but I have been working on some different ideas for radiant heating.
One is the ability to use VantaBlack to aid in the absorption of the IR. If you haven't heard of it you can easily find info by googling the name. The main ability of it is that even in the spray paint version (around $25 a can) it will absorb 99% of all light. The caveat is that it would not stand up to a flame or turbulent burned gases. I think the way around that might be to have an enclosure that allows the IR through but not the hot gasses.Possibly quartz or a good pyrex glass. I'm still at the idea working toward a hypothesis stage but let me know what you think.
SteveW

Transmissivity of pyrex and quartz are around 90% when clean. Defeats the purpose of the 99.9% black paint.

The paint is held to the substrate with resin that will degrade over time, turning gray. More loss.

A STUDY OF RADIANT ENERGY AND GASEOUS EMISSION OF INFRARED BURNERS

T. Bai, Y. D. Yeboah, J. X. Nie, Z. Wang, J. Shang
Combustion and Emission Control Laboratory
Clark Atlanta University
Atlanta, Georgia 30314


ABSTRACT
An infrared (lR) burner is one of the fully primary aerated burners and a surface combustor that elevates the temperature of the burner head to a radiant condition. Because of their energy-efficiency and environmental characteristics, infrared burners are receiving more and more interest. However, infrared burners are not yet as well characterized as the partially aerated blue flame burners.

Using an innovative measurement setup, infrared radiation from an infrared burner was measured along with its emissions. The infrared spectrum from the burner was found to cover the IR range from 6500 to 450 cm¹ and concentrates its spectral intensity in the 4000 to 500 cm¹ wavenumber range with strong H₂O absorbances at 2000 - 1400 and 3700 - 3650 cm¹ and CO₂ absorbances at about 2350, 2330 and 667 cm¹. The radiant energy was proportional to the integration of the measured spectrum within the wavenumber range. To quantify the total infrared energy from the burner a blackbody was used to calibrate the FTIR. The infrared spectrum from an infrared blackbody covers the range of 6500 - 450 cm¹. The radiant energy from a blackbody depended on its temperature alone. Further more, with certain corrections, the radiant energies of an infrared burner was calculated from the measured infrared data by using the blackbody as a standard.

At the equivalence ratio Φ = 1, the radiant efficiency of the infrared burner reached its maximum, -31.4%. As the equivalence ratio shifted away toward either fuel-lean or fuel-rich side, the radiant efficiency was quickly decreased. The addition of nitrogen to the premixed methane-air combustion caused the gas dilution so that it decreased the radiant efficiency. The addition of the propane to the premixed methane-air combustion did not affect the radiant efficiency. The hydrogen addition increased the radiant efficiency. Emission studies indicated that the emission gases CO₂ and NOx also reached its maximum value of 10.7% and 8 ppm at Φ =1, respectively. The concentration of NOx produced from an infrared burner was significantly lower than that produced from a conversational burner.

A STUDY OF RADIANT ENERGY AND GASEOUS EMISSION OF INFRARED BURNERS

You know Scott...I applaud your intuition!

I think you're right on the money my friend! In that, during almost every one of my presentations at the SACA Meets I mention a future intention. This is the reasoning for trying to figure out how to get to super critical steam. I think this is the key to having HTE (high temperature electrolysis). The key ingredient from electrolysis is hydrogen and its profound effect on developing the coveted IR wavelength.

This is the true reasoning behind this development into the IR. Note how I put together the high flow nozzle pictured above. It's next generation might include HTE. If asked, I can re-take the pictures of the nozzle with a camera instead of my phone and re-post? When I resize pics from my phone to fit the forum, the size comes out small

I hope to have a neat presentation on this subject during the Spring Mini-meet.

Cheers,
Rick

Scott, could you give me a link about vantablack paint using a resin that turns gray? I found no reports of this and the latest information indicate current uses that couldn't afford to have this happen.
As for the loss of 10% due to the quartz or pyrex you still have a total absorption of 89.991% . To me that seems reasonably good. I will note that if you use a fuel like kerosene,diesel, or gasoline any incorrect fuel to air ratio could quickly smoke up the glass.
There is an alternate paint called black 3.0 that appears to solve the problem of using a glass/quartz cover as it can be handled without harming the coating giving a total of 99.6% maximum absorption in the visible, ultraviolet and ir spectrum.

https://www.surreynanosystems.com/resources
Download 1ea. of the pdfs.

The inexpensive paint is not high temperature and uses an acrylic resin.
      Heat resistance Long term 65°C, short term 80°C

The space rated paint.  
     Temperature range in air:   -271°C to 300°C (long term) / 350°C (short term - 48 hrs).
                   (300°C × 9/5) + 32 = 572°F
     Chemical resistance: Not resistant to solvents, strong alkaline or acidic liquids.
                   ( Read as:  Products of combustion.)

That said, contact the manufacturer: Ask questions.

My experience with using high temperature black paints (various store brands) is that they slowly degrade, and the resin turns dark gray/white in a matter of months, at 300°F, higher temperature, faster degradation. We look at the black paint with an IR sensor monitoring temperature. Periodically we need to re-calibrate the sensor, and/or remove and repaint the black area.

Thank you for the information. It seems that the articles I read were incorrect as they listed temperatures up to 1500 F and much more durable. Even the black 3.0 , similar to vanta black, while more durable don't have the qualities needed.
I still like the infrared heat for steam generators and will continue to research the idea. I appreciate all help even if I have to go back to the drawing board.
SteveW

Just to be clear I have not tested Vanta black. My information came from the PDFs.

Steve, contact the mfg., explain what you want to do. There may be other information, formulations, and uses, that aren't public at this time.

The world was built by people that experimented and found better solutions, not those that say" it will never work".

Hi Scott,
You seam to have performed some research on this subject. I'm into the next stage to achieve the red color at the burner. According to the chap that Mike linked me to, the process seams to require a fine mesh and a course mesh spaced away from the fine to achieve the IR color. I know and have held the propane torch with you at meets (good times BTW) playing with this very thing. Any details you might of uncovered?

Note that I'm going down the road with using SS mesh over the slots. Ceramics will come later when I understand the process better.

Kind regards,
Rick

Some progress on the low flow IR burner. This is the fine mesh screen over the holes and held in place with screw clamps.

This mesh is a fine mesh made of Stainless Steel. I bought it on Amazon for around 10 bucks. This is my interpretation of the article Mike posted above, a scale model railroader who has replaced several burners with IR style. I have attached some examples of his infrared burners

Now I have wrapped a 14 gauge wire around the fine mesh screen and added a couple of layers of 1/4 inch screen around that. Then added the spiral hose clamps on in-order to bring it together.

I have made good progress figuring out how to arrange the screens and spacing. However, I'm not there yet. I need the constant red flame that shows on my grill side burner pictured above, one of the first postings. I think I need a 1/8 inch opening screen.

Attached is a picture from another successful infrared burner. The holes in the final screen seam to be around 1/8".

Note that this burner configuration puts out pretty good radiation. You can warm your hands at about a foot away from the surface. Another interesting feature is that the top of the burner does not seam over-ally hot. Most of the heat energy is radiating radially out on the horizontal.

Summary of this experiment:

Attached is a direct comparison of the Blue Flame to the Infrared Flame (red in color)

Some features of the Blue Flame
- Good for high flow
- heat is most intense at top of burner, gravity where heat rises
- temperature not hot to the sides of the burner
- Able to apply full propane tank pressure for intensifying flame
- Note the Blue Flame Ginger ale can in the picture

Infrared features
- Low gas flow and line of sight surface heating
- heat is most intense radially outward from the radiation
- temperature above the burner is not as hot as the blue flame
- temperature is achievable with regulated propane, less fuel
- Not sure of the life and durability of the red flame

This actual unit is slated for use in a prototype boiler as pictured. This burner will be in the center of the boiler, inside the Ofeldt Tubes. I'm going to perform one more experiment with 1/8" opening mesh. With good results, I'll make the mesh attachments permanent by welding the SS to the tube. This will be a viable unit awaiting the boiler prototype construction.

Hope this puts the plan into perspective and summarizes the experiment,

Kind regards,
Rick

I promised a clearer picture of the high flow burner nozzle.

My screen arrived with the 1/8" square opening. I'll work on performing my next test this weekend.

I'll admit that I'm still perfecting the geometry for the screen spacing and configuration. Again, I'm sure I'll figure it out and share the details. The potential of the IR burner is far greater than the blue flame. Note that this experiment is for a low flow IR burner.

Two configurations planned for the next generation burner(s). One is the low flow IR and high flow with an IR emitter. These would be applied to Ofeldt coil(s) and Grzyb mono-tube coil respectfully.

I bought a house with a lot next door. I'll be building my shop (pole barn) soon and will be a building machine once set up!

More to come...

Pictures of progress...I can go to prototype burner/boiler with this one.

Short video...hope it can be viewed.

Hi Steve,
I wanted to get back to you about coatings and glass isolation of the burner.

You asked my input regarding absorbent paint type applications. When applying IR in close proximity, the surface temperature are going to go very high. If interested in a high emissivity (1) consider using a black oxide conversion coating. This coating is a Fe^3 O^4 coating on the surface with porosity. This conversion coating can handle super high temperatures. Note that black surfaces absorb heat to a great degree and then become emitters themselves. Keep this in mind with Boiler Design.

I've given glass interface concepts some serious thought engineering. I don't have a concept that I think will work.

There is another area that I will be pursuing and haven't talk about it much in my threads. This is providing a high reflective surface, mirror if I may, all around the inside surface of the boiler containment wall, ceiling and base. My thinking is that this will have a tremendous effect and improvement on performance. My first trial will be with polishing these surfaces and coating them with a high temp spray enamel.

In the LSR prototype boiler, the low flow IR burner will be vertical within the natural circulation coils. The high flow burner w/emitter will be flowing around the mono-tube coils. Neither of the burners will be directly applied to this shinny reflective surfaces. The intent is to build a giant size laser with no aperture for the light to escape.

If you think about it, this is the technology used in a thermos. The other thing is insulation. A thermos uses a vacuum. Not sure what to do here. I welcome comments from other readers?

Kind regards,
Rick

Hey Ken,
Wondering what kind of patent history is on infrared burners?

Kind regards,
Rick

Hi Rick,

Honestly, I've never looked up IR burners; I've been more interested in porous catalytic burners with boiler tubes buried and sintered into the catalytic media.

Clicking on the topic reveals some 54,485 patent references:

Infrared burner patents on Google

Regards,

Ken

Thanks Buddy,
Kind of too much to sort through. Seams like all the intellectual property is taken.

As Tom always says, nobody makes any money on Steam Stuff. If they do, they'll need to share it with him...right?

Note that I'm approved on merging my property. Building permit next and we'll be building my work shop real soon.

Very best,
Rick

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