Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
Posted by Burt
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Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley December 31, 2020 04:01PM |
Your right Chuck it is not an easy task if you do not have the correct bender.
Rod Teel SACA-NE built a beautiful bender that would do the job
It has since been destroyed. Not sure how.
The thing is that most guys don’t realize is there are pipe bending shops around that will sell the pipe all bent to order as cheap or cheaper then you can buy the pipe locally.
Get the best price delivered with mill certs you can then shop the computer-controlled pipe bending shops that will deliver the coils all bent to speck.
In most cases you will find the cost all bent is chipper then you can buy the pipe delivered.
You may need to furnish cad drawings but most likely the bending company will do there own anyway.
Rolly
Rod Teel SACA-NE built a beautiful bender that would do the job
It has since been destroyed. Not sure how.
The thing is that most guys don’t realize is there are pipe bending shops around that will sell the pipe all bent to order as cheap or cheaper then you can buy the pipe locally.
Get the best price delivered with mill certs you can then shop the computer-controlled pipe bending shops that will deliver the coils all bent to speck.
In most cases you will find the cost all bent is chipper then you can buy the pipe delivered.
You may need to furnish cad drawings but most likely the bending company will do there own anyway.
Rolly
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Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley January 02, 2021 08:34AM |
Hi Burt,
A couple of things I wanted to cover before rolling out an Ofeldt Design recommendation. First thing is safety and boiler pressure rating. For a condensing Stanley that uses a piano wire wound drum, I suggest we stay within comfortable limits on the drum size. If you want to exceed an eight inch diameter drum, I would suggest going with steel bands welded on the drum much like what's pictured. If you stay with an 8" drum in Schedule 80, I would feel comfortable to say you are rated at 1,000 psi.
Next consideration is fabrication. This is Tom's website where he can wind coils as pictured. He wound Tony Grzyb and Ron Rogers coils using 1/4" Schedule 40 Black Iron Pipe. It comes in 22 foot lengths. I think the black iron pipe absorbs heat and also becomes an emitter of infrared...my opinion. This is an important trait that improves performance.
Tom Kimmel Ofeldt
Also consider Ron Rogers welding technique. This is highly recommended.
Also look and study the factory made Ofeldt. Note that it's center drum is relatively small compared to the coils.
Regarding the Ofeldt design and what's important, I believe that the clover-leaf design is key regarding the hot gas flow over the generating tubes. The design is meant for a gravity burner like a Stanley style. A picture(s) of my Ofeldt burner. If one introduces a spiral hot gas flow, I'm not sure the response will be effective. It could be. However, I don't have any evidence or proven concepts to pull from. A condensing machine is tough because you can't use the exhaust steam to draw the flame.
What does matter on the burner is the mass flow rate of the hot gas. The faster the flow, the better the heat transfer. I recommend the flow to cover a mile a minute or less.
Last is the relative comparison of drum diameter to coil diameter. I'm leaning towards a coil diameter is 3/4 of the drum diameter. This concept considers all aspects including fabrication capabilities.
Picture of Chuk, Tom and helper at Tom's shop. More to come tomorrow.
Very best,
Rick
A couple of things I wanted to cover before rolling out an Ofeldt Design recommendation. First thing is safety and boiler pressure rating. For a condensing Stanley that uses a piano wire wound drum, I suggest we stay within comfortable limits on the drum size. If you want to exceed an eight inch diameter drum, I would suggest going with steel bands welded on the drum much like what's pictured. If you stay with an 8" drum in Schedule 80, I would feel comfortable to say you are rated at 1,000 psi.
Next consideration is fabrication. This is Tom's website where he can wind coils as pictured. He wound Tony Grzyb and Ron Rogers coils using 1/4" Schedule 40 Black Iron Pipe. It comes in 22 foot lengths. I think the black iron pipe absorbs heat and also becomes an emitter of infrared...my opinion. This is an important trait that improves performance.
Tom Kimmel Ofeldt
Also consider Ron Rogers welding technique. This is highly recommended.
Also look and study the factory made Ofeldt. Note that it's center drum is relatively small compared to the coils.
Regarding the Ofeldt design and what's important, I believe that the clover-leaf design is key regarding the hot gas flow over the generating tubes. The design is meant for a gravity burner like a Stanley style. A picture(s) of my Ofeldt burner. If one introduces a spiral hot gas flow, I'm not sure the response will be effective. It could be. However, I don't have any evidence or proven concepts to pull from. A condensing machine is tough because you can't use the exhaust steam to draw the flame.
What does matter on the burner is the mass flow rate of the hot gas. The faster the flow, the better the heat transfer. I recommend the flow to cover a mile a minute or less.
Last is the relative comparison of drum diameter to coil diameter. I'm leaning towards a coil diameter is 3/4 of the drum diameter. This concept considers all aspects including fabrication capabilities.
Picture of Chuk, Tom and helper at Tom's shop. More to come tomorrow.
Very best,
Rick
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Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley January 02, 2021 12:35PM |
Burt
The 10 inch drum should be at least Sch 80 A-106 Not code. For a working pressure of 600 PSI. For the drum to be Code it should be 3.5 times the working pressure. Closer to Sch 100.
Pressure ratings of A-106 steel pipe
[www.engineeringtoolbox.com]
Just use the correct weld joints and plate thickness for the ends.
Code requires five full threads for taped holes. Sch 80 - I/2 couplings are fine if you can’t get welderlets.
On 10 inch heads I think you will have to go to one inch thick, might getaway with ¾
Do the end plate deflection math. Code requires PW-31 weld. I used a PW-16-1a weld on my Stanley boiler heads which I believe is less stress on the weld joint. It’s also an approved code weld.
Rolly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2021 01:42PM by Rolly.
The 10 inch drum should be at least Sch 80 A-106 Not code. For a working pressure of 600 PSI. For the drum to be Code it should be 3.5 times the working pressure. Closer to Sch 100.
Pressure ratings of A-106 steel pipe
[www.engineeringtoolbox.com]
Just use the correct weld joints and plate thickness for the ends.
Code requires five full threads for taped holes. Sch 80 - I/2 couplings are fine if you can’t get welderlets.
On 10 inch heads I think you will have to go to one inch thick, might getaway with ¾
Do the end plate deflection math. Code requires PW-31 weld. I used a PW-16-1a weld on my Stanley boiler heads which I believe is less stress on the weld joint. It’s also an approved code weld.
Rolly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2021 01:42PM by Rolly.
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Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley January 03, 2021 01:14PM |
Thank you Rolly...sorry about your good friend. A nice story.
Burt,
I have a starting point for you. You are welcome to modify from this concept provided you stay within the parameters identified above. I provide a rough calculation of what your expected Hp rating will be. However, I believe that the Ofeldt coil will perform better. I use 5 Sq ft / BoHP as the main value.
The attached concepts are using a 8 inch diameter drum (schedule 80) and 6 inch OD coil. One concept is a 1/4" diameter pipe and other is 3/8" both black iron. This will be close to a 22 -24 inch diameter boiler at ~ 14 inch high. If you want to go a larger diameter boiler, then add a -wall, mono-tube. This design would afford you to operate a 600 -700 square machine (pounds pressure, degree F).
I included a general arrangement concept. This one was for LSR. However, it applies here.
If you do decide to go with a larger diameter drum, I would follow Rolly's recommendations. I also agree that it would be cool to add fire-tubes. I attached some pics of my steam fire tubes. My has a very advanced fire-tube design with spiral tubes. The spiral tube doubles the generating surface area.
Good luck and let me know if you have any specific questions. Do keep us a breast of your progress.
Kind regards,
Rick
Burt,
I have a starting point for you. You are welcome to modify from this concept provided you stay within the parameters identified above. I provide a rough calculation of what your expected Hp rating will be. However, I believe that the Ofeldt coil will perform better. I use 5 Sq ft / BoHP as the main value.
The attached concepts are using a 8 inch diameter drum (schedule 80) and 6 inch OD coil. One concept is a 1/4" diameter pipe and other is 3/8" both black iron. This will be close to a 22 -24 inch diameter boiler at ~ 14 inch high. If you want to go a larger diameter boiler, then add a -wall, mono-tube. This design would afford you to operate a 600 -700 square machine (pounds pressure, degree F).
I included a general arrangement concept. This one was for LSR. However, it applies here.
If you do decide to go with a larger diameter drum, I would follow Rolly's recommendations. I also agree that it would be cool to add fire-tubes. I attached some pics of my steam fire tubes. My has a very advanced fire-tube design with spiral tubes. The spiral tube doubles the generating surface area.
Good luck and let me know if you have any specific questions. Do keep us a breast of your progress.
Kind regards,
Rick
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Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley January 18, 2021 07:22AM |
Hi Burt
I was from Massachusetts now in Florida. Twenty-five years ago I designed an ASME code boiler using pipe size material. Mostly ¾ A-106 pipe. Each pipe had a 90 degree bend and an offset. Six different configurations. All the pipe was bought completely bent to my drawing and delivered from a Co in Pennsylvania cheaper then I could buy just the pipe in Mass.
At about the same time my son was building roll cages for racecars, he understood the codes and he found a Co in Boston area that would bend up the Shelby tubing to paper sketches cheaper then he could buy the tubing delivered to the shop.
First make a complete bill of material for your boiler. Then get prices on all the material cut and delivered.
You will have to search the Internet for pipe bending shops, and get many prices. Get prices on them furnishing all the pipe bent to your drawings. If there a production shop most likely the price will be no more then the best price of the just the material. Most buy in forty foot or longer.
I am not a fan of the Ofeldt boiler, two much gas-pass space. The Bolsover in my opinion is a much better design. You can get more tubing in the same space and better heat transfer. Still a round boiler configuration. Of course the Stanley won’t know if the boiler is round or square. The Derr boiler is square and no bent tubing all straight cuts and a good steamer. Four members of SACA-NE had Derr boilers in there Stanley’s. two with oil burners and two with vaporizers.
I have used many 12V controllers on oil burners, I designed my own long before they were commercially available, when I first built my Derr I built a two stage burner starting on two gal per hour then when the pressure was up to 100 psi the second stage of four gal would come on for a total of six GPH. The car could not handle it.
Stay well.
Rolly
I was from Massachusetts now in Florida. Twenty-five years ago I designed an ASME code boiler using pipe size material. Mostly ¾ A-106 pipe. Each pipe had a 90 degree bend and an offset. Six different configurations. All the pipe was bought completely bent to my drawing and delivered from a Co in Pennsylvania cheaper then I could buy just the pipe in Mass.
At about the same time my son was building roll cages for racecars, he understood the codes and he found a Co in Boston area that would bend up the Shelby tubing to paper sketches cheaper then he could buy the tubing delivered to the shop.
First make a complete bill of material for your boiler. Then get prices on all the material cut and delivered.
You will have to search the Internet for pipe bending shops, and get many prices. Get prices on them furnishing all the pipe bent to your drawings. If there a production shop most likely the price will be no more then the best price of the just the material. Most buy in forty foot or longer.
I am not a fan of the Ofeldt boiler, two much gas-pass space. The Bolsover in my opinion is a much better design. You can get more tubing in the same space and better heat transfer. Still a round boiler configuration. Of course the Stanley won’t know if the boiler is round or square. The Derr boiler is square and no bent tubing all straight cuts and a good steamer. Four members of SACA-NE had Derr boilers in there Stanley’s. two with oil burners and two with vaporizers.
I have used many 12V controllers on oil burners, I designed my own long before they were commercially available, when I first built my Derr I built a two stage burner starting on two gal per hour then when the pressure was up to 100 psi the second stage of four gal would come on for a total of six GPH. The car could not handle it.
Stay well.
Rolly
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Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley February 07, 2021 01:44PM |
Hi Burt
First you need a pump that will pump all the oil you need. Then it goes to one nozzle for the first stage burn, the size nozzle limits the burn rate. The air has to be set for the small nozzle. From the out put of the pump the oil also goes to a solenoid valve. The solenoid valve controls the oil to the second nozzle.
The solenoid valve is turned on by a pull switch that is built into a cable something like a chock cable. This cable opens the air to the burner. You need to have the right amount of air for the one nozzle and more air for the second nozzle. I used the largest blower wheel that would fit the burner housing. This took some calculating with the help of my friend at the oil burner supply co.
Rolly
First you need a pump that will pump all the oil you need. Then it goes to one nozzle for the first stage burn, the size nozzle limits the burn rate. The air has to be set for the small nozzle. From the out put of the pump the oil also goes to a solenoid valve. The solenoid valve controls the oil to the second nozzle.
The solenoid valve is turned on by a pull switch that is built into a cable something like a chock cable. This cable opens the air to the burner. You need to have the right amount of air for the one nozzle and more air for the second nozzle. I used the largest blower wheel that would fit the burner housing. This took some calculating with the help of my friend at the oil burner supply co.
Rolly
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Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley January 13, 2023 07:59AM |
Hi Chris,
By all means get in contact with Rolly. However, I would love to see pictures of the boiler or flash coils along with their arrangement.
Curious to know if the boiler is a mono-tube as opposed to multi-tubes. The reason I ask, per your description, it sounds like you might have a Derr Boiler arrangement. I have included a pic of a Derr Boiler in one of my friend's steam car. I could be wrong. However, this could be a missing link in steam car development.
If truly a mono-tube, I can put you in touch with a mono-tube guy who has worked out how to control it very well. What's really important is how to control the flash coil. I included a pic of this gentleman's steam motorcycle-mono-tube boiler.
If all else fails, I recommend an Ofeldt. I can help you there. Just let me know. Picture of my Ofeldt attached.
Again, please send pictures.
Rick
By all means get in contact with Rolly. However, I would love to see pictures of the boiler or flash coils along with their arrangement.
Curious to know if the boiler is a mono-tube as opposed to multi-tubes. The reason I ask, per your description, it sounds like you might have a Derr Boiler arrangement. I have included a pic of a Derr Boiler in one of my friend's steam car. I could be wrong. However, this could be a missing link in steam car development.
If truly a mono-tube, I can put you in touch with a mono-tube guy who has worked out how to control it very well. What's really important is how to control the flash coil. I included a pic of this gentleman's steam motorcycle-mono-tube boiler.
If all else fails, I recommend an Ofeldt. I can help you there. Just let me know. Picture of my Ofeldt attached.
Again, please send pictures.
Rick
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