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Boiler alternatives for a Stanley

Posted by Burt 
Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
December 31, 2020 04:01PM
Your right Chuck it is not an easy task if you do not have the correct bender.

Rod Teel SACA-NE built a beautiful bender that would do the job
It has since been destroyed. Not sure how.

The thing is that most guys don’t realize is there are pipe bending shops around that will sell the pipe all bent to order as cheap or cheaper then you can buy the pipe locally.

Get the best price delivered with mill certs you can then shop the computer-controlled pipe bending shops that will deliver the coils all bent to speck.
In most cases you will find the cost all bent is chipper then you can buy the pipe delivered.

You may need to furnish cad drawings but most likely the bending company will do there own anyway.

Rolly


Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
January 02, 2021 08:34AM
Hi Burt,
A couple of things I wanted to cover before rolling out an Ofeldt Design recommendation. First thing is safety and boiler pressure rating. For a condensing Stanley that uses a piano wire wound drum, I suggest we stay within comfortable limits on the drum size. If you want to exceed an eight inch diameter drum, I would suggest going with steel bands welded on the drum much like what's pictured. If you stay with an 8" drum in Schedule 80, I would feel comfortable to say you are rated at 1,000 psi.

Next consideration is fabrication. This is Tom's website where he can wind coils as pictured. He wound Tony Grzyb and Ron Rogers coils using 1/4" Schedule 40 Black Iron Pipe. It comes in 22 foot lengths. I think the black iron pipe absorbs heat and also becomes an emitter of infrared...my opinion. This is an important trait that improves performance.

Tom Kimmel Ofeldt

Also consider Ron Rogers welding technique. This is highly recommended.

Also look and study the factory made Ofeldt. Note that it's center drum is relatively small compared to the coils.

Regarding the Ofeldt design and what's important, I believe that the clover-leaf design is key regarding the hot gas flow over the generating tubes. The design is meant for a gravity burner like a Stanley style. A picture(s) of my Ofeldt burner. If one introduces a spiral hot gas flow, I'm not sure the response will be effective. It could be. However, I don't have any evidence or proven concepts to pull from. A condensing machine is tough because you can't use the exhaust steam to draw the flame.

What does matter on the burner is the mass flow rate of the hot gas. The faster the flow, the better the heat transfer. I recommend the flow to cover a mile a minute or less.

Last is the relative comparison of drum diameter to coil diameter. I'm leaning towards a coil diameter is 3/4 of the drum diameter. This concept considers all aspects including fabrication capabilities.

Picture of Chuk, Tom and helper at Tom's shop. More to come tomorrow.

Very best,
Rick


Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
January 02, 2021 12:35PM
Burt

The 10 inch drum should be at least Sch 80 A-106 Not code. For a working pressure of 600 PSI. For the drum to be Code it should be 3.5 times the working pressure. Closer to Sch 100.

Pressure ratings of A-106 steel pipe
[www.engineeringtoolbox.com]

Just use the correct weld joints and plate thickness for the ends.
Code requires five full threads for taped holes. Sch 80 - I/2 couplings are fine if you can’t get welderlets.

On 10 inch heads I think you will have to go to one inch thick, might getaway with ¾
Do the end plate deflection math. Code requires PW-31 weld. I used a PW-16-1a weld on my Stanley boiler heads which I believe is less stress on the weld joint. It’s also an approved code weld.

Rolly



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2021 01:42PM by Rolly.


Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
January 03, 2021 06:54AM
My friend Harry Card moved to Florida from New Hampshire after he retired as a machinist. He liked to build steamboats. He had patterns for a three-inch bore single cylinder engine and liked to build Ofeldt boilers. He had three or four big lathes and one was rigged only for winding the coils. He had taken a large pipe and welded ends on it for fitting the lathe. He had wound several layers of flat stock on top of each other around the pipe for the spacing of winding the tube. One left hand and one right hand.
He always had several old long narrow hulls in the yard for another boat. I’m guessing he built ten or twenty of those boats hear in Florida. His work was very good, great welder and machinist.

I just never liked the Ofeldt boiler, there is two much gas pass space, and the stack temperature runs high. Of course his boilers only ran at the most 150 PSI. and burned wood. His main drum was at the most only six inches or less. If I was going to ten inches I would install some fire tubes so as to keep the head thickness down to a reasonable thickness.

I never told Harry that. He got sick and was on a tube keeping him alive. For several years he walked around the shop with a plastic tube coming from the house. He wound up in a nursing home and finely he just had them pull the tube. Good mind right up to the end, he was just tired of living that way. Was a good friend.

Rolly
Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
January 03, 2021 01:14PM
Thank you Rolly...sorry about your good friend. A nice story.

Burt,
I have a starting point for you. You are welcome to modify from this concept provided you stay within the parameters identified above. I provide a rough calculation of what your expected Hp rating will be. However, I believe that the Ofeldt coil will perform better. I use 5 Sq ft / BoHP as the main value.

The attached concepts are using a 8 inch diameter drum (schedule 80) and 6 inch OD coil. One concept is a 1/4" diameter pipe and other is 3/8" both black iron. This will be close to a 22 -24 inch diameter boiler at ~ 14 inch high. If you want to go a larger diameter boiler, then add a -wall, mono-tube. This design would afford you to operate a 600 -700 square machine (pounds pressure, degree F).

I included a general arrangement concept. This one was for LSR. However, it applies here.

If you do decide to go with a larger diameter drum, I would follow Rolly's recommendations. I also agree that it would be cool to add fire-tubes. I attached some pics of my steam fire tubes. My has a very advanced fire-tube design with spiral tubes. The spiral tube doubles the generating surface area.

Good luck and let me know if you have any specific questions. Do keep us a breast of your progress.

Kind regards,
Rick


Attachments:
open | download - Ofeldt Design 3-8.pdf (197.8 KB)
open | download - Boiler General Arrangement reduced.tif (405.2 KB)
Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
January 17, 2021 01:17PM
Hi Chuk:

Several shops have already told us they cannot (or don't want to) do what we're asking. We have gotten one quote. Looking for more.

bending 3/4" pipe is clearly out of my league!
Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
January 17, 2021 05:40PM
Hi Rolly, and Happy 2021!

Your comments regarding the bending shops got my attention. Are there any you might recommend? Local to So Cal would be terrific, but by no means necessary, and in the scheme of things the shipping costs are trivial.

The design criteria I had in mind for the boiler were maximum SF heating area that would be more or less the size of a 30 hp Stanley boiler. I thought that 1/4 or 3/8 pipe might be a bit small for the steam production needed to move a 4,000 pound car sprightly, thus I considered 1/2, 3/4, and 1 inch pipe (like the Ofeldt boiler that Tom Kimmel has). It turns out that with a coil pitch that optimizes open space between the nested coils and a target of 18" high, that 3/4 pipe will wind to almost exactly 7 1/2 coils. Other sizes don't work out so well, and of course that means fewer coils to get to the next half coil, not more. That also means less heating surface.

I had intended to make the center drum out of sched 160 pipe, or at least, as you pointed out, greater than sched 80. All holes for coil attachment would be chamfered on both sides for maximum strength in welding.

My intention is to put commercial weld-on pipe caps of sched 160. I have yet to figure out what holes I will need for feed water, blow down, level sensing, and the like.

Lastly, my intention is to fire it with a gun burner (or two, if the btu's require). Beckett makes a 12-24vdc burner with up to 770,000 btu output. The car has a 12v electrical system and a 55 amp alternator that's driven a bit faster than the stock unit--about 1,000 rpm per 10 mph. It has a 200-300 rpm cut in.

I also intend to coil the pipe for the feed water heater and the economizer. Can fit many more linear feet of pipe in a shorter overall space and the design should create a turbulent flow of steam and exhaust gas passing over it. I was thinking of 1/4 pipe coiled to about 2.5" OD. 20 ft of pipe coiled thus will be about 2 feet long. Flow through both would be countercurrent. Of course, this all depends on my success finding a pipe bending house!

Thank you!
Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
January 18, 2021 07:22AM
Hi Burt
I was from Massachusetts now in Florida. Twenty-five years ago I designed an ASME code boiler using pipe size material. Mostly ¾ A-106 pipe. Each pipe had a 90 degree bend and an offset. Six different configurations. All the pipe was bought completely bent to my drawing and delivered from a Co in Pennsylvania cheaper then I could buy just the pipe in Mass.
At about the same time my son was building roll cages for racecars, he understood the codes and he found a Co in Boston area that would bend up the Shelby tubing to paper sketches cheaper then he could buy the tubing delivered to the shop.

First make a complete bill of material for your boiler. Then get prices on all the material cut and delivered.

You will have to search the Internet for pipe bending shops, and get many prices. Get prices on them furnishing all the pipe bent to your drawings. If there a production shop most likely the price will be no more then the best price of the just the material. Most buy in forty foot or longer.

I am not a fan of the Ofeldt boiler, two much gas-pass space. The Bolsover in my opinion is a much better design. You can get more tubing in the same space and better heat transfer. Still a round boiler configuration. Of course the Stanley won’t know if the boiler is round or square. The Derr boiler is square and no bent tubing all straight cuts and a good steamer. Four members of SACA-NE had Derr boilers in there Stanley’s. two with oil burners and two with vaporizers.

I have used many 12V controllers on oil burners, I designed my own long before they were commercially available, when I first built my Derr I built a two stage burner starting on two gal per hour then when the pressure was up to 100 psi the second stage of four gal would come on for a total of six GPH. The car could not handle it.

Stay well.
Rolly


Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
February 07, 2021 01:01PM
Hello Rolly:

I was intrigued by your mention of a two-stage burner for your Derr Boiler. I had been noodling the possibility of two burners for mine, and arranging to operate them similarly to a 3-way light bulb: 1, 2, and 1+2, depending on the steam demand. Having a two-stage burner in a single unit would, I think be a better way to go. How did you accomplish this?
Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
February 07, 2021 01:44PM
Hi Burt
First you need a pump that will pump all the oil you need. Then it goes to one nozzle for the first stage burn, the size nozzle limits the burn rate. The air has to be set for the small nozzle. From the out put of the pump the oil also goes to a solenoid valve. The solenoid valve controls the oil to the second nozzle.
The solenoid valve is turned on by a pull switch that is built into a cable something like a chock cable. This cable opens the air to the burner. You need to have the right amount of air for the one nozzle and more air for the second nozzle. I used the largest blower wheel that would fit the burner housing. This took some calculating with the help of my friend at the oil burner supply co.

Rolly


Re: Boiler alternatives for a Stanley
February 07, 2021 06:49PM
Thank you for the prompt reply, Rolly!! So the two nozzles sit side-by-side in the end of the air tube, and you manually regulate the volume of combustion air? What happens during the changeover, if anything?
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All files from this thread

File Name File Size   Posted by Date  
1922 735B Small.jpg 61.7 KB open | download SSsssteamer 11/14/2019 Read message
Finished-2.jpg 67.8 KB open | download Rolly 11/14/2019 Read message
Derr boiler-a.JPG 86.6 KB open | download Rolly 11/14/2019 Read message
P1010003aa.JPG 62 KB open | download Rolly 11/14/2019 Read message
OfeldtBoiler.jpg 219.3 KB open | download alsancle 09/30/2020 Read message
Ofeldt-Grzyg,boiler-100_0281.jpg 54.6 KB open | download Rolly 09/30/2020 Read message
IMG_20151126_203604896 reduced.jpg 318.8 KB open | download Rick.H 09/30/2020 Read message
IMG_0944 reduce.jpg 761.7 KB open | download Rick.H 09/30/2020 Read message
IMG_20151126_203435191 reduced.jpg 973.9 KB open | download Rick.H 09/30/2020 Read message
IMG_0942 reduce.jpg 982.9 KB open | download Rick.H 09/30/2020 Read message
IMG_0952 reduced.jpg 775.3 KB open | download Rick.H 09/30/2020 Read message
Burt Generating Tube Calc.jpg 245.8 KB open | download Rick.H 12/28/2020 Read message
Water_viscosity_F.jpg 133.1 KB open | download Rick.H 12/30/2020 Read message
Pipe Bender.JPG 20.9 KB open | download Rolly 12/31/2020 Read message
Boiler Stress Analysis3_8 tubsht.png 492.2 KB open | download Rick.H 01/02/2021 Read message
IMG_1058.JPG 112.7 KB open | download Rick.H 01/02/2021 Read message
IMG_1250.JPG 135.5 KB open | download Rick.H 01/02/2021 Read message
IMG_3493 (Medium).JPG 85.4 KB open | download Rick.H 01/02/2021 Read message
IMG_3494 (Medium).JPG 39.7 KB open | download Rick.H 01/02/2021 Read message
IMG_1467.JPG 125.3 KB open | download Rick.H 01/02/2021 Read message
Welding code's.jpg 38.6 KB open | download Rolly 01/02/2021 Read message
img0.jpg 35.9 KB open | download Rolly 01/02/2021 Read message
code.JPG 26.3 KB open | download Rolly 01/02/2021 Read message
Ofeldt Design 1-4 reduced.jpg 527.9 KB open | download Rick.H 01/03/2021 Read message
Ofeldt Design 3-8 reduced.jpg 429.8 KB open | download Rick.H 01/03/2021 Read message
Ofeldt Design 3-8.pdf 197.8 KB open | download Rick.H 01/03/2021 Read message
Boiler General Arrangement reduced.tif 405.2 KB open | download Rick.H 01/03/2021 Read message
IMG_0860 reduced.jpg 691.2 KB open | download Rick.H 01/03/2021 Read message
IMG_3066 reduced.jpg 437 KB open | download Rick.H 01/03/2021 Read message
P1010006a.JPG 45 KB open | download Rolly 01/18/2021 Read message
P1010001a.JPG 118.4 KB open | download Rolly 01/18/2021 Read message
final test max air.jpg 41 KB open | download Rolly 02/07/2021 Read message
Nozzle assemble.JPG 37.6 KB open | download Rolly 02/07/2021 Read message
Oil burner.JPG 77.7 KB open | download Rolly 02/07/2021 Read message
Bombustion chamber.JPG 68.4 KB open | download Rolly 02/07/2021 Read message