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Force circulation steam generator design

Posted by SteveW 
Force circulation steam generator design
May 31, 2019 03:59AM
I have been working with my brother on ideas for building a forced circulation steam generator. We have been looking to attempt greater use of radiant heat for a more compact and efficient design. Obviously there are many ways to go about this and there are multiple older topics and discussions on boiler design. I'm hoping that besides getting help this will maybe spark interest in developing something different and perhaps better.
I'll post some drawings as soon as my brother has that first cup, uh make that pot of coffee and I can grab them from his computer. Believe me you do not want any drawings I make eye rolling smiley .


SteveW
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
June 12, 2019 10:58AM
Steve,

I found this very early forced circulation boiler design in an engineering book from 1859. This design preceded LaMont’s boiler by over 60 years and uses the same working principal. I don’t believe it was ever built...but the illustrations are rather detailed in its construction and layout. I like the coil arrangement and the simplicity of it’s design. Note that it can naturally circulate if the pump is not running, using separate downcomers for both the pump inlet and a bypass (presumably isolated with a check valve) connected at a tee before entering the coils.

Jamison


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
June 12, 2019 08:56PM
Hmmmm...1859?

Hmmmmm…..this all sounds familiar. I wrote a series on "Early Forced Recirculation" which appeared in the SACA Bulletin over 4 issues -- from the July/August 2016 issue through the January/February 2017 title.

The first forced recirculation boiler I found was built by Abel Shawk and Alexander Latta for one of the earliest steam powered fire engines. Latta patented a forced recirculation boiler on October 27, 1857. Latta and Shawk parted company under a cloud and apparently Shawk clued in a friend of his, Benson. Mr. Benson moved to England and patented a similar boiler in 1858 and 1861. We know that at least 85 of these were in service by 1862. An engineer named Virgil Blanchard patented a unit with a centrifugal pump (just like Lamont) in 1889. A bit before this, one of the Herreshoffs developed a piston pump forced recirculation boiler for steam boat use. Wilhelm Schmidt who, among other things, invented the locomotive superheater, developed a jet pump circulated boiler circa 1894.

We can find another piston pump, forced recirculation unit in "The Boiler Number" of Horseless age
E.M. White boiler

I have to note that the Charles French steam tractor used both jet and gear pumps for forced recirculation circa WW1 ,,, ahead of Lamont.

They call it a Lamont boiler because he managed to make them in large sizes and sell a significant number of units .. certainly not because he invented the thing!

Ken



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2019 09:01PM by frustrated.


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
June 13, 2019 10:39AM
A year or so ago I had an article on forced circulation boilers in the Bulletin about the one hundred boats Herreshoff built using them 1870, one boat was 120 feet and the generator was 12 feet tall. I built a model of this generator. The pump was not shown as they were attached to the engine. His engines driven pumps had one forced circulation pump, one water feed pump and a vacuum pump driven off the low pressure cylinder cross head.
Rolly


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
June 13, 2019 04:50PM
I found a photo of my Model
Rolly


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
June 17, 2019 08:45PM
Hi Rolly,
That's a pretty nice example of the Herreshoff! I bet your model produces some serious steam.

Hi Steve,
I've been thinking about using a wire filled tube in a mono-tube generator section. I've attached some pictures of some concepts that can be made. Please refer to my Hybrid concept for sequence of the wire fill and non-wire fill to help with reducing back pressure. I'm pretty sure I can bend about 20 ft of tubing with a 2-twisted wire fill in 3/8" tube. What I have pictured is 3/8" copper tube. I used my 1/2" drill with an eyelet in the chuck to hold the wire...like making a rope. Then twist with the drill to achieve a nice tight turn in the wire. Note that the other end is in a vice on the work bench. A beautiful thing is that you can spiral the wire into the straightened tube by reversing the drill. It wants to fly into the tube.

If winding 1/2" OD tube, the wire filled tube can be wound, coiled, without having to fill the tube with sand or sugar or frozen water...hope I'm not forgetting any method. I used play sand to fill the tube to coil my Ofeldt tubes (1/2" OD), prevents kinking.

I also attached some pictures of my coil winder. I have to show off this slide mechanism that keeps the 1-1/2" spacing. You can spiral one coil into the other coil, nesting the coils. This concept can work well for natural circulation coils. Sorry, repeating that the 1-1/2" spacing, call it the thread, is very important to natural circulation.

Your design can use these concepts...pretty sure you can make them work. You know, be able to build it. Another type of coil, the pancake, I don't have much experience with. There is a Youtube video How Its Made of Harry Scholl building a pancake that's pretty good. Maybe someone can find it and post it?

Hope the design is going well? Looking forward to concepts if you're willing.

Cheers,
Rick


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
June 18, 2019 01:04PM
Hi Rick
I have never fired this Model or many others I have built.
There display models.
Yes you left off salt. Tightly wound coils can be flushed out with water.
One of my miniature benders and my White model boiler.
Rolly


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
June 18, 2019 07:40PM
Rolly,
Bless your heart...I stand corrected. Interesting coil winding(s).

For all,
This is the video of Harry's engine being made. The pancake coil method is just pass half way through the video.
How It's Made - Steam Engine

I do like his method and wire banding technique. Note that his design will silver solder the tubes together at the coolest part of his boiler chamber.

Hope this helps,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
July 10, 2019 11:36AM
A little bit of information to think about,

I just read the SACA bulletin that just arrived. Bill Ryan did a talk this last Spring Meet where he had a Serpollet type boiler. I saw this YouTube video and wanted to share the thinking of a instant steam generator. This one would be or could be temperature controlled with the pump driven by the engine expander.

Flash mono-tube... DIY steam cleaner
Another one.... Steam cleaner
third one.... Mono Tube


Hydroplane speed boat.... Hydroplane Speed Boat Boiler

Interesting how little of a tube can continously produce steam.

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
July 11, 2019 11:15AM
Rick
You poster under forced circulation steam generators and talked about mono tube generators. A mono tube generator has no circulation. Water comes in one end and steam comes out the other end, the output is dependent on the total water in and the balance of the amount of heat applied.
The word circulation means returning to the starting point. There is no returning in a monotube

A forced circulating generator has a separate coil in addition to the generator with an external pump continually circulating water around the combustion chamber.
Two separate type of steam generators.

Rolly
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 04, 2019 12:09PM
Hi Rolly,
I would love to talk with you at the SACA Fall Meet? Hope you can make it! Bring George also? BTW, how is he doing?

I hope to provide a presentation about mono tube generators and in concert with water level control. I will include in the presentation about the characteristics of water in a mono-tube along with understanding Reynolds Number, Nusselt Number and Prandtl Number. I'll show the importance to using this information in a new high tech. boiler design.

BTW...thank you for the specific correction in mono tube generator, that has no circulation. Quote from your previous post "A mono tube generator has no circulation."

Forgive me for I'm using this thread as a teaser to my presentation and hope to attract an audience at the Fall Meet.

Best regards to you,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 04, 2019 12:12PM
HA! I hate to think of how many times I've said that a monotube has no circulation, only to be told that I'm being too literal --- you would think the term "once-through boiler" would settle the point. I'm glad to hear someone else making the same point!
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 05, 2019 11:57AM
Hi Ken,

Yes, we can always strive to be more clear. My sincere attempt was to understand the mono-tube. Then to apply a mono-tube into the forced circulation circuit. I was hoping the later was implied by the Subject...oh well.

On another note, it is extremely hard to explain the generating capability of a tube. This is true because water changes so much over a temperature range. One minute it is a certain volume and the next it is twice, three times the size.

I hope to explain a concept that I've been working on for a while now. I hope there's time to allow me to present at the Meet?

Cheers,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 05, 2019 12:27PM
Rick
I will not be going to the Fall Meet.
Are you going to talk about Force circulation steam generator design or mono tube generators.
Forced circulation has a complete circulating path. Unlike the Doble and White mono tube generator. As far as I am concerned both Doble and White generators were pour designs and most people copy them.
The most work done in any boiler or generator is where there is the largest differential in temperature between the incoming water and the combustion chamber. Feed water should be around the combustion chamber. The combustion chamber should be sized for the amount of fuel to be burned.
In a zone outside the combustion chamber that can maintain superheat around 700F (unless you’re going for super critical) is the location of the superheat coil of the appropriate heating surface area required for the engine design.
Two of the members in SACA NE had White steam cars. One still does. Both had the generators out of the cars for rebuilding, the bottom two winding next to the burner were burned out, as well as the cast combustion chamber ring. I had the opportunity to measure and do cad drawing of these two White generators, they are mid 1907 models. Before this the generators had more coils.
I used this information to make my ¼ scale model of the white generator.
Rolly


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 05, 2019 12:41PM
One of my forced circulation designs I have never built.


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 05, 2019 01:50PM
Hi Rick,

Yeah, as much as people hate jargon, it is often necessary to avoid misunderstanding. I know of one designer who renamed so many components to suit his own fancy that people started to lose track of what was being attempted.

Usually there is no problem finding a time to speak, sometimes we have to draft people to give short talks. Of course, there were the three years I prepared talks (with citations, quotes, graphics and everything) and got bumped off the schedule …. but we won't dwell on that. I have spent so much time writing books for SACA, and working on a cylinder head design to convert a Jimmy 3-53 to a semi-uniflow engine for an LSR machine, that I won't be talking this year --- so that's one open spot, anyways. As per normal, we'll try to fit the time to the topic.

Regards,

Ken
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 09, 2019 12:01PM
Hi Rolly,
I have your phone number, perhaps I'll give you a call sometime to catch up. I heard George Nutz designed a Forced Circulation Boiler or sometimes referred to as a Lamont. Any news on that?

I'm pretty sure I have a good understanding of boilers. However, I'm going to test my understanding with you.

- Fire Tube Boiler, basic boiler configuration on a Stanley Steamer. This is the boiler in my Steam Powered Scooter

- Water Tube Boiler, some examples are a Derr (Scott's Stanley), Ofeldt and Black Staff (Boat Boiler) along with my future Stanley replica Ofeldt. Important to note that these have natural circulation.

- Mono-tube Boiler, a once pass boiler and examples are Doble, White for productions cars and Chuk's Steamliner and several Tom Kimmel Boilers

- Then, Forced Circulation or Lamont, again some of Tom Kimmel Boilers, Tony Grzyb Bike (earlier version) and Chuk's new boiler he is building. These all have a separator drum. When I just say mono-tube w/out saying boiler, I mean just that...a single tube not associated with circulation or could be associated with circulation.

I agree with you that I don't think a Mono-tube Boiler is the way to go. I think there is a good relationship to make a mono-tube generator to a seperator drum and also have either natural circulation (tube boiler style) or mono-tube forced circulation (mono-tube boiler style). One more addition to the forced circulation is to use an inductor/injector to circulate the water in a mono-tube.

My talk will be on how to design a boiler, a super duper one!

Cheers,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 09, 2019 12:11PM
Hi Ken,
Thanks so much for allowing some presentation time.

Attached is my steam powered scooter video...hope all can enjoy.

Scooter Video

Cheers,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 10, 2019 04:50PM
Rick
Many boilers have a mono tube section most often used as a feed water heater to recover heat loss in other areas as in high stack temperature. See my marine boiler photo.

- Water Tube Boiler, some examples are a Derry (Scott's Stanley), Felt and Black Staff (Boat Boiler) along with my future Stanley replica Ofeldt. Important to note that these have natural circulation.
( and induced circulation by design.)

I do not like to refer to forced circulation generators as Lamont as they were invented 100 years before he was born and even before they have pipe to build them. See my article in the saca builtin.

I wish you well with your talk at the SACA meet.
Rolly


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 11, 2019 10:29AM
Rick,
Over 20 years ago designed a Lamont for Rod Teel to be used in a high speed boat on Lake Winnepesaukee. It was a 5GPH boiler(400#/hr) for his engine. I posted much information on it on the John Woodson 'stanley steamers.com' website.After several hundred hours of complicated heat transfer calculations regarding combined radiation/convection/conduction and inter tube radiation came up with the design and in testing it performed within 10% of the theoretical results. In engineering one always wants an idea of how it is going to perform before building it. The flow and resultant back pressure to the Lamont circuit was carefully calculated and was to be about 5psi on the circulating pump and that was the result when running the boiler at 400psi circulating about 5,000#/hr.
It is surprising that its design was identical to the drawing on this thread but it was bottom fired, the drawing is top fired. In a steamboat bottom firing is used. I do not think it should be fired more than 5-6 GPH. It also had designs for the 8" drum and the circulating pump that ended up with an efficient motor and impeller design to draw about 7 amperes@ 12 volts. The gas flue temperature @ 5GPH fire was 450-470 degrees F in test. It could be improved in certain ways upon reflection.
The 10-12 GPH firing rate design was a gas radial outflow for 900-1000"/hr steam at 1000psi and again took a few hundred hours of analysis.This was made for Jim Crank and his desires for a high speed car;originally for a 740 Stanley and then changed to an old V-12 Jaguar!
Never built but as he paid me for the design it belongs to him. If you desire go back to that old website of John Woodson's and view the info there.
Best of success, GeorgeN
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 11, 2019 12:21PM
Rolly and George,
So nice to hear this information! George to quote you, " In engineering one always wants an idea of how it is going to perform before building it." This is my day-to-day life as Engineering Manager at the company I work for.

As a spoiler to my presentation, that's exactly what the object is to build the super boiler is to predict using engineering equations and information like Reynolds number along with a bunch of other dimensionless numbers to predict the performance of heat transfer in a tube. Also use the characteristics of water like density and how it changes over the temperature range of the system.

The key is to take the best approach and build it!

Again as more of spoiler to my presentation is what you two have derived before I thought of it. I believe the key is to perform some serious steam generation via a mono-tube before feeding into a separator drum. Then provide for some sort of re-circulation to steam the water in the separator drum. What lead me to this conclusion was playing with a TS diagram for another inventor. Attached is the TS I would strive for using this method.

OK to call you guys while driving out to the SACA meet?

Cheers,
Rick


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 11, 2019 12:37PM
Hmmmmm…

Rick, are you going to condense all this into simple, user-friendly Excel spreadsheets which can be posted on the Forum?

the finger smiley

Ken
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 11, 2019 02:26PM
Rick,
Yes that would be fine. My very good friend Gerry Hackett will be there from Florida and has knowledge of the subject. Dr. Art Gardiner is the ultimate authority and is of of great wisdom.
By the way the Lamont circuit in a small boiler IS a monotube steam generator coil and because of its required high circulation ratio can absorb huge amounts of heat energy, my designs were for it to generate all the steam; with a 5/1 circulation ratio what comes out of it is 80%water/20% saturated steam, that is 40-50% of all heat transfer in that circuit is in that coil. and 100% of the evaporation. It is so important to always have such a high recirculation rate with such huge heat transfers that injectors and other attempts have eventually failed. A case is point is the International Harvester attempts on there 500-600HP railcar and with failures of injector circulation had a second version version that appears to have been a recirculation pump. As such boilers like in boat boilers they are full out industrial boilers. Automotive boilers rarely are asked to put out full output for a long sustained period. The Teel Lamont was such designed. Nice chatting with another engineer.
Good luck in your endeavours, GeorgeN
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 14, 2019 10:10AM
Hi George,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm at the meet with Gerry...having a blast. I'll see if we can call and chat.

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 22, 2019 08:09AM
Rick,
How did your presentation go?
GeorgeN
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
September 30, 2019 11:41AM
Hi George,
I think the presentation went really well. I received many anomalous responses for a good job. Thank you for asking.

I was chatting with the guys who are talking about a new land speed record attempt. I volunteered to perform some boiler design and prototype work. I'm always looking for someone to bounce ideas off.

I'm going to try and call you...right now as a matter of fact. I'm still on lunch at this moment.

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
October 16, 2019 04:44AM
To George and All,
Hope it might be interesting to share this boiler concept I'm working for the next possible LSR that some of the SACA boys are working on. The design is based on the combination of a mono-tube generator into a separator pipe that has natural circulation coils. The ratio of mono-tube to natural circulation coils is 3 to 1.

Please allow me some liberty to present this concept with the Topic being a "Force circulation steam generator design". The sincere intent is to provide some interesting information.

I talked with Chuk and reviewed the LSR mono-tube design. Plugged it into a spread sheet I'm using to calculate Boiler HP (BHP) output. With BHP output I can get a BTU output. Also with a Boiler HP, I can estimate the mechanical HP. Reason for review of the LSR design is to check my numbers for Square Ft per Boiler HP. I'm pretty comfortable with a mono-tube generator at 2 Sq ft /BHP. Then 5 Sq ft/BHP for a natural circulation coil.

Please don't be confused with a Stanley burner that can output 1/2 Million Btu. The goal is to get 1/2 M Btu or twice this in the steam to the engine. In the current design, this is quite a challenge. This is not a walk in the park.

OK...here is the prototype design, a 1/2 scaled down version, with some new burner concepts in attempt to get to the goal. More to come. Don't hesitate to ask questions. One question I think would be is what is the reason for a natural circulation as apposed to a forced circulation? Any guesses?

Kind regards,
Rick


Re: Force circulation steam generator design
October 29, 2019 12:53PM
Rick, and all, I am still working on engine and recirculating steam generator design although most actual drawings and figures are done. I got hit by a multiple whammy starting in may. I was let go from my job while in the middle of renovating a home to move into, someone who had agreed to fund my research with steam backed out at the last moment with no word why, leaving me with an engineering firm chomping at the bit to finish the last bit of work and finally my vehicle decided it needed a moderate overhaul to run again. This is why I haven't been on the forum or talking to anyone. I'm working hard to get transportation again and with it a job. I still think that my brother and I have a unique take on a steam system but not enough resources to fully calculate how well it would work and no money to build anything.
Sorry to rant but I think ya'll will understand. I needed to explain and let off 'Steam' .
Best to all of you on your projects and much better luck.
SteveW
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
October 31, 2019 12:10PM
Hi Steve,
I totally understand, life isn't so kind at times. In all this collaboration, I sincerely hope that it is enjoyable and fun to read along with try if the means is there. I too am between houses and hope to get up a good running shop to complete my Steam Dream Projects.

Note that I've been trying to keep the thread going until we heard back from you. I'll admit that I've been taking some liberty from your original force circulation with a natural circulation design...hope you don't mind.

If OK with you, I'll keep the thread going. I'm working with the boys on the LSR boiler. I'll be sharing some interesting stuff, my sincere hope.

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Force circulation steam generator design
November 01, 2019 03:29PM
Rick that is perfectly fine. I'm trying to get back to this again. Right now I'm partially rebuilding the IC engine in my ford freestar. It would be more fun if I had a full workshop for this. Good luck with the LS project!
SteveW
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