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10 HP Stanley Differential Gear

Posted by Rick.H 
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 04:55AM
Some evidence that the piston rod is soft...


Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 12:00PM
So I did call up Boston Gear and spoke with a nice woman named Pat. She guided me through what they might have for gears that would apply. Unfortunately there is not a gear made that fits the 79 tooth requirement. What really happened is that I need to perform more research and measurement of my driven gear. Boston gear only makes production gears, no specials. If they ever made this gear before, they sure don't make it anymore.

The name of the gear I'm looking for is a Spur Gear. Some of the details I need to understand is:
- Diametrical Pitch ... 8 DP
- Pressure Angle ... 14-1/2 Deg
- Pitch Diameter ... 10 inch diameter

Attached is a sheet from Boston Gear catalog that might be close. I need to verify this...anyone who knows these particulars is welcome to comment?

With the purchase of this gear, I will need to machine out the web. Again, any advice is welcome.


Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 12:05PM
Sorry...the closest gear is with 80 teeth. Note, not a prime number sad smiley
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 12:14PM
One last thought...can I 3-D print a gear and have it cast or molded?
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 01:02PM
Sure, you can have it cast or molded, but I would guess that it probably won't hold up well if it isn't hobbed. You want a real broad contact surface on the gear faces and I don't think you're going to get that kind of accuracy short of machining.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 01:42PM
Rick
I found the photos of my 20 HP piston rods, cross head casting with an inner hardened tapered bushing.

I know I have a list of the Boston Gears and there numbers. I’ll look for them. Gary Hoonsbeen used them in his EX rebuild.


Rolly


Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 03:03PM
I would use the 80 tooth gear. From 1913 until the end, Stanley used 40 to 60 tooth ratios on their 20 HP engines without any ill effects. Running a dry engine could change the program a little, but not that much. We have cleaner roads today (less grit) and better lubricants today too.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 05:10PM
I found one E-mail from Gary for the gears for the axles and star gears.
The gears are Browning YSB10B15-40 for the stars and Browning YSB10B60-40 for the axles.
It’s too bad he passed away before he ever ran his car. I’ll keep looking for the ring gear. I’m sure it was Boston gear.
Rolly
[stanleysteamers.com]
[www.hemmings.com]
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 14, 2019 10:10PM
X



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 05:55AM by IronChief.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 15, 2019 10:10AM
I agree Ron
I made the steering quadrant gear, used an original to go by. Not fun, but it all worked out well.
I would not want to do it again.
Rolly
I found a lot of Email from Gary but have not found the one on the ring gear.


Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 15, 2019 11:50AM
Three years ago, I purchased a 1909 Kissel Kar and I had to make all new gears for its transmission. I think that it had had years of use without any lubrication. Anyway, after the gears were cut, I had to heat treat the gears. After heat treating them, I had to check all of the measurements again and I had to machine a couple of gears that seemed to have grown 0.0005" with my normalization treatment. Buying a gear blank would save you the heat treating operation too. The last gear blank that I had bought for our 1909 Model R Stanley, the teeth were flame hardened and the bore was still soft enough to be machined. It was a slam dunk, and hat is the way to go.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 15, 2019 04:23PM
I needed a steering sector for my Model H and had the gear part made as a full disc gear which was cut into three sections which were then bolted to separate cast steel pivot and arm pieces. So the whole of the gear was used to make three steering racks, the gear cutting for which was far easier than mounting up and gear cutting the complete unit.
Quite possibly if not trying to replicate closely the original toothed sector, a standard gear might be used, although getting the required angle of sector to steering column might be tricky.

The original Stanley component was made of bronze which although fine for the gear, is quite unsuited to cope with the bending forces to which the arm is subjected. Their have been instances of the the original 110 year old bronze arms breaking and frankly they should all be scrapped!

Mike
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 16, 2019 09:29AM
Hi Mike
Hope all is well across the pond
The setup was tuff. Tony that cast my casting makes all Boston bronze gear blanks. If I remember correctly they run over 70,000 tensile. My indexing head rotates in all directions both vertical and horizontal and can be driven of the lead screw of the mill table for doing helix curves. It still took me a lot of time thinking to make the setup and keep it ridge.
Rolly
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 16, 2019 01:38PM
Looking through my old files I came across one interesting E-mail from Gary
One night around 9 PM someone knocked on Gary’s door. Jay Leno.
It seems he had read about Gary’s work on Stanley’s and was in town. They spent an hour in the garage.
Rolly


Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 17, 2019 03:53AM
Hi Ron,

Huh, chain drive maths out pretty good. Why didn't I think of that? And for bigger more torquey engines there's [way] bigger chains/sprocket wheels than "#60H". Heck, I've seen multi-ton-payload 1920's Mack trucks with chain drive. And about a gazillion different passenger & sports/racing cars used chain drive back in the early days. And the chains, Spacely sprockets, etc, are all point and click and delivered to the shop door in a few days from McMaster, small fraction of the cost of gears. My guess is that for mass production, gears are just cheaper once the tooling is there, but for one-off and limited production vehicles, why not chain drive it.

Are there any problems with chain drive for a direct-drive steam car, which I'm not seeing here? Noise/vibration/harshness [NVH]? Maintenance hassles? Friction losses? Service life? If I "chain it", it will run in a sealed oil bath.

Yep, chain drive runs fine for decades on motorcycles, out in the open gritty air with just grease. Those are lighter vehicles, but also higher hp engines and higher torque/faster acceleration to compensate. Including crazy-powerful/fast sport & racing motorcycles -- chain drive is far from "bicycles and golf carts only" equipment.

Peter



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2019 04:01AM by Peter Brow.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 18, 2019 09:12AM
I don’t think I’m going to find the information on Gary gears, however I did find two photos that reminded me he not only got a gear for the rear-end he changed the gear on the engine to match the pitch of the gear on the rear-end.
Rolly


Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 18, 2019 03:33PM
X



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 05:53AM by IronChief.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 19, 2019 04:40AM
Not sure how a timing belt would enjoy the oily conditions if it were driving from the middle of the crank Stanley fashion!
Mike
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 19, 2019 04:58AM
Hi Ron,

Hope you build your futuristic steam dream one of these days. Mine includes "silent" timing belts too, nearly identical to spur gear final drive efficiency & various advantages. But belt installation/replacement with a Stanley-ish engine and close-coupled rear axle is a big job. With chain drive, it's loop in a new chain and replace a coupling link, then adjust with nuts on frame rods, way easier. Some hot modern motorcycles use timing belts. Others still use chain drive. Both with crazy high torque, speed, and HP. Chain drive still common on "cruiser" bikes where smooth/quiet running is desired. Hmm...

Chain drive parts, a couple day ago, were a quick select for me; timing belt selection/ordering look trickier. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong catalogs. But there's still the replacement/adjustment labor issue; easier with chains.

My impression is that for the relatively low rpms in a "Stanleyoid-ish" direct-drive steam car final drive, noise, vibration, friction loss, etc, are not significant issues. For high-rpm valvetrain and final/PTO drive with IC engines, and with some kinds of hi-rpm steam engines, it is a different story. But the latter is not what I am aiming for.

The thinking problem for me is my long-standing prejudice that "chains & sprocket wheels for final drive are strictly for bicycles and golf carts". Realistically though, that's not true. Maybe the pre-1905 car approach is best in this case. When I get to mass-produced steam cars, I might re-evaluate it. smiling smiley


Peter
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 19, 2019 05:45AM
Hi Mike,

A few experienced industrial/plant folks have told me that timing belts are OK in oily conditions. It's the installation/replacement issue that bugs me. Remove both crankshaft from engine, and diff from axle, to fit the one-piece belt around timing wheels on both of them, then re-assemble, versus leave crankshaft and diff in place, wind a split chain around them, then install a connecting link and adjust. The latter seems much less "wrenchy". My motorcyclist contacts have been feedbacking me about how nice it is that I have "finally come to my senses" with a "real" [chain/sprocket-wheel] final drive method instead of 1905-1925 style spur gears! They add lots of gratuitous brags about their higher torque, rpm, & HP with chain drive too. Why would I worry about chain drive in my relatively slow-pokey wimpy steam thing. Thanks for that, guys. [Rodney Dangerfield necktie-adust/sideways-chin-jerk] "I get no respect, no respect at all". I'm tellin' ya. LOL

Hey, I'll play the Dangerfield role if it means finding/building stuff that runs well on the road. Even if it ends up looking dumb/obvious/primitive/outdated. The "smarter than y'all" inventor/genius ego thing can go to heck. smiling smiley

Peter
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 19, 2019 07:58AM
Hey-

I used both chain drive and toothed belt drive on the Streamliner, and they both worked very well with no problems. Of course, we didn't put many miles on them!

I had a chain drive coming off the engine, dropping down to a jack shaft that had the belt drive to the solid rear axle. A spare belt was installed around the axle-just in case, but was never used. The belts still look brand new, with no visible wear at all. Having the chain drive gave us the option of variable ratios, easily changed at the track as needed.

My Dragster had a chain drive too, and it worked flawlessly. It was a bit tougher to change the ratios due to the layout, but the chain handled the shock loading with no hassles at all.
.
I'm thinking about possibly using a chain drive for the Model T rebuild...we'll see!


Chuk
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 19, 2019 08:15AM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 05:52AM by IronChief.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 19, 2019 08:46AM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 05:52AM by IronChief.
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 20, 2019 04:30AM
Hi Folks,
A lot of useful information...thank you.

I'm missing one detail that some of you might be able to help with? Can someone measure the Pitch Diameter of their differential gear? Rolly this question is targeted to you however any body can respond. My Stanley 10 HP is the same engine as yours in your EX. Hence why you the target. I have two options with Boston Gear, a 10 inch and a 8 inch. Just need to come close, no exact measurement needed.

Also, if someone can confirm the 14.5 pressure angle, that would be great also.

One last thing, the Boston gear is cast iron. I'm thinking this is good for wear. My fear is machining out the hub/spokes. I would assume the teeth are hardened in a carbon rich environment, perhaps the whole assembly was, don't know. If locally flame hardened, that would be great.

I have great contacts at a local heat treat house. If need be I can have him run a anneal cycle and later re-harden the teeth. Pretty much I'll be able to machine the hub to meet the press on the gear. Like someone stated, heat treatment makes material move when grain structure aligns or relieves.

More to think about...

Rick
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 20, 2019 04:36AM
Hi Ron,
Regarding the chain drive, this would be a difficult conversion. The crank shaft has the gear pressed on to the shaft. The gear has integral eccentrics machined into both the sides. To get it off and from discussions with Dave Neargard (sp) that one destroys the shaft. Hence it's a whole new shaft build with making new eccentrics, shaft and details. Again, add in the variability in heat treat and not sure this is the way to go.

Respectfully, what do you think? It can be done. I have the capability to do it only to have bragging rights smiling smiley

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 20, 2019 05:05AM
Thanks for the encouragement, Chuk. Yep, chain and toothed belt drives are the real thing for serious HP, as in your great-running steam cars. I still plan on toothed belt for alternator drive, really efficient and long-lasting.

Hi Ron, steam car engine design is a complicated topic for another time and thread. For me, anyway. Long lists of pluses and minuses to sort through for every design. Change one design feature in one engine, and then the whole comparison with other engines may need re-examining. Then all the other engines can be changed in various ways, and so on. I have enough trouble with relatively simple things like deciding on chain drive. smiling smiley I think you are onto something with independently variable inlet/exhaust timing control for different stages in a compound engine, to deal with the wide variation in load & speed in a steam car engine under road conditions.

Peter
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 20, 2019 07:37AM
It doesn't spoil the eccentrics or gear - just bore the shaft out until reaching the keyway then push out the remains.

Mike
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 20, 2019 09:13AM
Rick
I believe the Stanley gears are 14 pressure angle and that was the problem why Gary changed the engine gear to match the new gear he got for the rear axle. You need a good hydraulic press to pull the crank webs of the Stanley shaft to get at the gear.
If you go to the Hershey auto parts show you may be able to find something.
Rolly
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 20, 2019 11:44AM
Rolly,
I have a 20 Ton press and can upgrade it to a 30 Ton. I have removed the crank throws and outer eccentrics using it. The bearing races came lose or someone did not put them on correctly. I'm performing a sealed grease bearing mod to the shaft. This is a similar mod that Ron did on his 6-1/2 HP engine on his buggy. I think Tony did the same and another fellow who I just can't remember his name did this to a 10 HP engine (might be considered a true 10 HP 3-1/4 X 4-1/4). This gentleman is noted for rebuilding bullet proof 10 HP engines for touring. He has participated in several tours...hope someone can recall his name? It is not Red or the folks from Cadillac MI.

Note that I have ~20 ft piece of 1" Dia. 1040 round stock. I do intend in building future engines.

Any who, I'm going to see if I can find the shaft with gear and pull it from storage this weekend. I can measure angles at work using an optical comparator. I'll let everyone know what it is for sure.

Thanks,
Rick
Re: 10 HP Stanley Differential Gear
March 20, 2019 12:16PM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 05:50AM by IronChief.
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001_Rearend.jpg 110.3 KB open | download Rolly 03/06/2019 Read message
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