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How would I build my boiler

Posted by Rick.H 
Re: How would I build my boiler
January 31, 2019 04:32AM
Jeremy...you made me smiling smiley
Re: How would I build my boiler
January 31, 2019 04:59AM
OK Peter,
I'm putting you on the hot seat the finger smiley

Maxim was a smart guy. Yes, he would answer D in my question:
"Pat,
You bring up a good point also. This leads me to a question for everyone:
If you wanted to increase your steaming rate, how would you do it? (please choose from the options below)

A) I would increase the boiler size

cool smiley I would decrease the water and increase the generating surface area

C) I would add another boiler

D) Option for B and C "

Peter, forgive me for I was sort of devious to put a hook and bait out there...you took it.

Respectfully when ever someone says do the math, pretty sure they haven't done the math themselves. I've done the math, too many problems in preparation for a PE exam...twice! I cannot get it to work in equations. Where do we go from here?

I'm going to leave you with a question. On one of the Maxim boilers, for a ship I believe, what is the reason to go with horizontal tube as the steam drum?

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: How would I build my boiler
January 31, 2019 12:51PM
I would overfire it ala Doble, provided it is a monotube "boiler" and not a fire or water tube.

Keith T.
Re: How would I build my boiler
January 31, 2019 10:57PM
Hi Rick,

Yeah, you dropped the bait and float, like fishin' for croppie or bluegill, and I "bit", then I kicked myself for biting. Reel me in, man. Am I a man, or a fish? Who's fishing who here? The fisherman's dilemma. Anyone who's fished the wily croppie or bluegill knows whereof I speak. smiling smiley

Anyone hip to 1980s music will spot the ref to "are we not men? We are DEVO!"

Vertical boiler drum eats gas-flowpath area down to the firebox; horizontal top drums give max flowpath through tubes at firebox roof, and only constrict gas flowpath at top, where less flowpath is needed. Note 20hp/"23 inch dia" Stanley boiler [4gph burner, ~350lbs/hr steam continuous generation, up to 4x that on brief reserve/overload @ 500psig/467 deg F] has approx 100 sq in gas flowpath thru the 751 firetubes, but only 25 sq in gas flowpath out the [5"x'5"] exhaust flue. Hmm. less flowpath needed at top of tube stack, why not constrict gas path there with top drums to handle "swell"? It all kinda works together.

Some time back, I think it was Rolly who posted a whole bunch of really interesting, actually-built and great-running/built-to-Code light steam boilers,most for steam boats, which used small horizontal drums and --no welding--. Very encouraging, I think it was in reply to some posts here to the effect that "all boilers which don't have every darn thing professionally welded, are dangerous junk"

Peter



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2019 11:35PM by Peter Brow.
Re: How would I build my boiler
February 01, 2019 04:49AM
Hi Keith, Poor on the Coals...man!
Re: How would I build my boiler
February 01, 2019 05:01AM
Hi Peter,
You guessed it, nice job! I think you have this superpower, you have all this Steam History stored up some how, I don't know how you do, but I love it!

A couple of loose ends to clear up on this thread. That is how to build a supercrical boiler. Or, how can we modify this boiler to produce supercritical steam. One of the requirements is to do it in First Pass. The other requirement is that it needs to hold up, not melt away. The purpose of the supercritical steam will be for the Burner. Yes, this will be for preparing HTE. Candidly, I don't see the supercritical engine available yet.

Peter, a preview of future post is to eliminate the horizontal drum for Supercritical. Sorry, more to come...

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: How would I build my boiler
February 01, 2019 09:22AM
Supercritical steam = 3200 PSI
You definitely don’t want a Drum type boiler.
I have worked on two power plants running 3600 psi at 1200 F, the first time I saw the numbers on the pressure gage I could not quite believe what I was looking at.

On a small scale boiler, a Derr type water tube could do the job other than a monotube generator.
The Derr boiler I built for the 1920 Stanley I hydroed to 4000 PSI. I think it could have safely gone to 8000 PSI but my hand pump limit was 4000. The upper and bottom drums are Sch 160 all vertical tubes are Sch 80 the rest of the tubes are Sch 40.
Rolly
Re: How would I build my boiler
February 01, 2019 01:03PM
Rolly,
So how do you use this 3200 psi in an engine?
Don
Re: How would I build my boiler
February 01, 2019 01:43PM
Don
I have no idea unless it’s on a turbine as in the power plants.
I only responded to Rick’s question, for a boiler. My Derr I tried at 1000 PSI but it was too much for a Stanley engine. However Stanley clam was 1300 PSI on the Rocket engine. ??? The Derr design allows an isolated area for the superheater so as not to burn it out. Controlled temperature area.
Rolly


Re: How would I build my boiler
February 01, 2019 06:19PM
Ive got something that can operate under those conditions. I would recommend uniflow/williams with exhaust side porting. The discharge orifice for the injector has a diameter of 3/16in with built in variable valve lift to throttle.


Re: How would I build my boiler
February 02, 2019 12:59AM
Hi Rick,

Some time back George Nutz noted that supercritical boilers, or boilers running close to "SC", cannot use natural circulation because the density of the vapor is too close to that of the liquid! Actually, when you are right at the supercritical point, I think the vapor and liquid have the same density... by definition? I don't know what happens above the SC point; I think just liquid H2O at higher pressures and temps. So SC needs force-circulated or once-through boiler types... only... uh technically at the SC point, there's no boiling liquid to vapor, so it is a "heat exchanger" rather than a "boiler"... not even a "steam generator...

I've been reading everything I can find about automotive/light steam, and talking to as many steam guys as I can, since 1978. Still running into super-geniuses with "book knowledge" and "practical knowledge" that blows my mind. Sometimes the briefest off the cuff comment has big implications that are not at all obvious at first glance. To steal a line from you [recent post here]: it keeps me humble. Maybe I can be like the proverbial bumblebee who doesn't understand aeronautical engineering, so despite aeronautical engineering studies that prove he can't fly, he just keeps on flying anyway.

Micro progress report: blueprinting on my "Easy-Clean" semi-automatic vaporizing burner steam-clean system is going well; design is now worked out, now detail/component drawings. Just named & numbered all the major parts in drawing index; self-imposed tedious paperwork/bureaucracy; only a few off the shelf fasteners left to name/number. If this system works as well as I think it will, then I might get a little less humble. At this point, it is a fascinating and complex design challenge. The Feds are now working on upping ethanol content of US motor gasoline to 15%; "summer blend" only though; I think that this will increase carbon problems for vaporizing burners running on cheap/convenient "road fuel". The "Easy Clean" system just might be staying a step ahead of the fuel situation.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2019 12:12AM by Peter Brow.
Re: How would I build my boiler
February 04, 2019 05:00AM
A quick point about SC steam and the reason for increased efficiency. Just like superheat increases the efficiency, so does SC. Note that the area under the curves relates to efficiency.


Re: How would I build my boiler
February 07, 2019 05:26AM
In talking to Jim Tangerman (steam tractor) about introducing steam into the burner mixing tube, this for using a less volatile fuel (fuel oil) and helping it vaporize, he stated that it burned like the blazes from hell. It really increased the burner intensity. With this knowledge and an idea I got from my Dad (Doctor Heinig), I'm trying to perfect this HTE concept. Picture is from 2007, my first time at a SACA meet, been hooked ever since.

I don't think it feasible to have a SC boiler to an Engine...yet! I'll cover this next year with How I would build my Steam Engine.

I did play with a concept on my Scooter, didn't work. The idea was to introduce SC into the boiler to generate steam faster. I called it the Gryzyb Coil. This came from an idea on Gerry Hackett's Steam Buss. It did provide a learning experience to generate SC steam.

I would take the water from the bottom of the drum, once through, run it through this type of coil to the burner. It will go through my electrolysis device on the way, jetted into the mixing tube. In the device, it will be released from water to go instantly to steam. At this point, it has the highest entropy, what I need to get the concept to work.

Note that the picture is of my boiler for the Steam Scooter. This view is looking at the bottom. The Gryzb Coil is a high end brake line. The 1/4" pipe crossing the path is the Super Heater. This whole area is engulfed in flame from the burner.

That's it for now. I need to work an article for the Bulletin about a gentleman I'm fond of and has some significant accomplishments in building a Triple Expansion Engine.


Re: How would I build my boiler
February 09, 2019 08:52AM
Hi Ron,

"I've read that quite a few times about the Ofeldt having too much open space and letting gas through etc. However, shooting the exhaust gas temperatures which are close to the steam temperature, there is nothing else to be had. "

Right on!

Peter
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Jamison Design Steam Generator.jpg 221.4 KB open | download Rick.H 01/16/2019 Read message
Check Valve Ofeldt.jpg 250.4 KB open | download Rick.H 01/16/2019 Read message
Injector Circulation.jpg 997.8 KB open | download Rick.H 01/16/2019 Read message
Natural Circulation Tube Concept.jpg 454.6 KB open | download Rick.H 01/16/2019 Read message
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