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Vintage LSR vehicles

Posted by Arch-Tone 
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 03:40PM
Opp my mistake 6000lbs car weight, sorry I thought you meant pressure.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 03:52PM
Quote: So how hard would it be to go 150 mph in a 1500 lb car?

Steam power very difficult, there is a giant difference in power requirements between 60 and 150 mph, have a look at the "cube law". The British turbine powered LSR if I remember correctly used eight individual boilers.

-Ron
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 04:01PM
That is the problem with going fast with steam power, if you want to go faster the only alternative is to make the plant larger, make the plant larger the vehicle get's heavier and more power is needed. Somewhere in there is the combination of speed, size, weight and power needed to break a speed record.

-Ron
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 05:49PM
donmaguire1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Rick,
> Sorry, but what is the wire for?
> And what temperature / pressure can the copper
> tubing take?
> I am setting boiler control with a needle valve
> to adjust input water and a high temperature
> shutoff in series with a high pressure shutoff. So
> if either limit is reached the fire shuts off.
> For LSR a steady state can be maximized with the
> dyno.
> Don

Hi Don,
OK...the wire is to reduce the cross section area of the tube. Sure, you ask what's the reason for that...right. OK...it takes 1 BTU to raise 1 gallon of water 1 Degree F in 1 hour. How long will it take to raise a quart of water 1 degree F? How long will it take to raise a pint of water 1 degree F?

The mono-tube boiler has the best potential to generate steam because it has the least amount of water to turn to steam. Hope that's clear when compared to a 40 gallon fire-tube boiler with the same BTU input or burner.

The wire fill helps to increase the area in steps, more equal stages as described. Yes, this is counter intuitive to the least amount of water to turn to steam. However, the energy to feed the mono-tube if constant area becomes impractical to build a system. You'll need an awfully long extension cord to run the LSR distance smiling smiley This to run the feed pumps only.

Please switch to the How I would Build My Boiler thread for future questions. There is another counter intuitive point to address. This is in regards to control and using a drum.

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 05:55PM
Hi Chuk,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that your LSR approach was full fire, full water feed, vent all excess steam, and go for it. I am generally accused of thinking that if the Stanley Bros didn't do it, then it won't work, but actually for LSR purposes, I think that full fire/water/dump-excess is the way to go With a monotube boiler, forced-air/fan burner, and all the rest.

IE, Right On, Chuk!

That's for LSR. Street driving [everything from10mph chuff to 80mph hiway] is a whole different deal.

OK, so are we still on topic, considering "Vintage LSR" and modern LSR?

Am I nuts [OK, obviously I am completely bonkers, never mind the rhetorical question], or should vented steam from a flat-out-only steam generator, go to a rocket nozzle for a bit of extra thrust? Or are picky-yoonish race/record authorities likely to disqualify such a setup as "not purely wheel-driven"?

It is probably just me, but these race/record-rules "Authorities" seem to rig everything to fit whatever their weird warped little nutshell view of the universe allows, and to set up all tech outside of their eeentsy-weentsy happy horse-hockey myopic worldview for failure.

Am I right? Nope, the reply here will probably be something like, "Peter, sorry, you are just a crazy "steam car nut",and we're just politely ignoring your posts until you finally quit posting here and go get the professional mental help which you so obviously desperately need, after which we will be happy".

Sorry to "Get crazy/reality", but how come an electric LSR vehicle with fully pre-charged electric batteries is OK, whereas a steam LSR vehicle with a fully pre-charged storage boiler is "dangerous, and cheating"?

Yeah, I know, all sorts of "reasons" why. And i "know" that "if I disagree with them, I'm wrong". "Authorities" are always right.

Well, news flash. The LSR "Authorities" are full of baloney. They rigged things to guarantee that their favorite tech "wins" and that any tech they don't like "fails".

Hey "Authorities". Zero credibility. We know what you're up to. Play fantasy rule games all you want; we ain't falling for it.

If an LSR EV with fully-pre-charged batteries is OK, then a steam LSRV with a fully-charged storage boiler should be allowed too.

Period.

Energy storage is energy storage.

Oh, but that can't be right. Because a "crazy steam car nut" [me] said it.

Ooops, never mind. I forgot "my place". Little People like me need to just shut up and obey. I need to leave everything to the Big Dogs. Only they can be right about anything. Everything Little People like me say will automatically be wrong. Never mind logic, facts, reality, and so on.

Hey, I will be in favor of the steam LSR rules banning "storage boilers" when the rules for LSR EV's are also changed to require them to run with no batteries, and to drag heavy-duty extension cords across the salt flats!

Peter


.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 06:05PM
Yeah, extension-cord LSR EV's are viable, Sure they are, Just fit a pair of wheels to the mile-long extension cord every 10 feet or so. Sure. It makes perfect sense...
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 06:20PM
The important thing here is: do NOT question the "storage boiler" steam LSR rule. Ever.

Never, ever, ever. Ever.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 06:26PM
Worlds Fastest 1/4 mile ever on dragstrip 3.58 secs @ 386 mph
[www.youtube.com]

I don't think this would work with LSR but its great to watch...
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 06:40PM
I have to apologize. i don't know what I was thinking, posting pro-steam-car comments on a website called "Steamautomobile.com". Obviously the purpose of a website with such a name is to disprove, discredit, and discourage steam automobile ideas.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 06:58PM
Peter why would you say that... I have learned to comparative my steam ideas you should too.

I have seen a fair ideas, I can tell you if you go to a steam meet at some point you will realize the person who has ideas, and its person to ideas, which just participating in the event. TomK has told me this for years it wasn't till after I went to a meet until I understood what he was trying to say.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 07:00PM
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2019 07:01PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 07:13PM
Jeremy that video is almost unreal to watch. That guy had a pair.

Peter, regarding the hysteria surrounding steam boilers, we can thank hollywood. The public has been brainwashed to assume every steam boiler is going to blow up, it's just a matter of "when" smiling smiley I don't think there is one recorded incident of a small vehicle, small boat boiler blowing up in the last 120 years.

Through most of the 1800's there were many boiler explosions, mostly commercial steamboats until the Federal government stepped in and started requiring engineers be trained and licensed, boilers be built with correct materials and the correct way. That is the first instance of the Federal Government involving itself in private commerce. It was due to public outcry, lots of people were dying, I think the one tragic happenings of the Sultana was the chief motivator, but ironically it is now widely believed that it was a "coal bomb" to those wondering what a coal bomb is, it is a hollowed out lump of coal filled with explosives. Throw it in the boiler and kaboom.

Another reason for the reduction in failures was the introduction of Bessemer type steels, prior to that, boilers were built with wrought iron plate riveted together and cast iron.

I love it when people are riding on my Locomobile and ask "where's the boiler" and I reply "you're sitting on it" instant white knuckles smiling smiley

-Ron
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 18, 2019 12:43AM
Hi Jeremy and Ron,

I only say things like that because of racing/record sanctioning bodies which require "non-storage type" boilers when storage type boilers are well proven, over 100 years of steam car use, to not blow up. Lots of pushed-too-hard IC racers/record cars have blown off cylinder heads and had other explosions; do they get banned? No. Yet zero steam cars with "storage boilers" blow up, and they get banned.

If these race-sanctioning bodies looked at the hoop strength of boiler drums and/or required steam LSR vehicles to meet boiler codes, or pass pressure tests, those would be reasonable safety requirements. But their current policy of "if it has a storage drum, then it is not allowed, period, no matter what", makes no sense. Drums can be safe. Even the 1907 Stanley racer's drum boiler hit the ground at around 150 mph when the car crashed -- while carrying extreme steam pressure -- and did not explode. And that was 1907 technology. Modern boiler drums would be much stronger and safer. Steam car boiler drum explosion was impossible then, and even more impossible now.

I comparative my steam car ideas all the time, and I attended the 2005 Berrien Springs meet. Too much comparativing over the years, and not enough building, is why I'm not driving my steam car right now. An engineer analyzed my 2006 boiler design and said it was workable, just "pushing the envelope" at top speed/power. Which it would almost never run at. But I wanted better. I am starting to think of just going back to my "M2006" boiler.

This hit me out of the blue during a recent drive down a long forest highway, with the setting sun flashing on me between the trees. I have had that psychedelic experience in the forests of California, UK, Texas, eastern Europe, etc; readers may know what I'm talking about, one of the weird joys of driving. In January 2019 I just asked my smartphone, verbally, to play this long-ago remembered tune from the Internet, out in the middle of nowhere, and there it was. Maybe in these times we need more of this mid-1960s style mellow grooviness. Good vibes to all:

[www.youtube.com]


Peter



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2019 01:10AM by Peter Brow.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 18, 2019 03:20AM
Peter the original reasoning behind the no storage boiler rule was that breaking the record should be done with power generated during the attempt, making power for 15 minutes beforehand and letting it out during 60 seconds was regarded as cheating in the early days of motor sport, giving steam an "unfair" advantage over ic engines. Perhaps that thinking is still there - although how it can be squared with battery powered EVs I don't know.

Mike
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 18, 2019 05:05AM
That's the trick Billy Barnes used to capture the motorcycle speed record. He did it with a Fire tube Boiler and a 10 HP Stanley Engine. He built up steam pressure in storage before the run. Mental note, I have to get down to see him.

Speed Record Attempt

To further Mike's statement, in the early 1900's, steam was taking all the speed records. The Wobble Bug was the first and then the Stanley's along with the Stanley Brothers (Marriot driving) captured the record. The IC guys were just pissing and moaning.

Then came the motorcycle daredevil, Glen Curtiss. The V8 motorcycle...what a thing! Glen Curtiss Speed Record
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 18, 2019 06:31AM
I was at the Ohio mile when Chuk ran his LSR there.

I left early Sunday morning and seen a T-shirt booth on the way out and figured I'd pick up a T-shirt. They had white ones and black ones, I told the lady I wanted two black ones, she looked at me and said something about 200 mph, I asked what do you mean, she said "you have to go over 200 to get a black T-shirt", I replied,
'I have", she sorta cocked her head and looked at me, and asked "you've went over 200 mph?" I said "Yes, You can call Northwest Airlines and they can verify that information for you" she got a good chuckle out of it, and I wound up with two white T-shirts.

-Ron
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 20, 2019 01:34AM
The thing that really bugs me about the "record-sanctioning authorities" banning storage boilers is the idea that they could look at a recirculatiing/water-tube boiler with small drums, which generates virtually all the power used during the run, and "disqualify" it because there is some use of "stored energy". So an LSR EV running on 100% pre-stored energy would be OK, but a steam LSR vehicle that "only" generated 95% of the steam used during the run, would be disqualified.

Next they might ban LSR SV's with monotubes, which generate 99% of their steam during a run, but "cheat" with 1% "stored energy".

But 100% stored energy EV record cars are OK.

Maybe they should just flat-out publicly admit that ICs & EVs can't compete, and that EV's need to be allowed to "cheat' /win because their "victory" is a priori/axiomatically necessary for some "political agenda" reason, and the heck with fairness. Whereas, of course, as all knowledgeable and sane people know, "Steam cars are dead and will never ever be useful for anything, not even breaking records on a race track -- unless they cheat with stored energy".

"The ends justify the means", and suchlike thinking favored by various "high-evil-factor" mid-20th century political regimes which will remain politely un-named.

In this case perhaps politeness is not the best approach. If the "sanctioning bodies" are to change, perhaps it requires a bit of public pestering, to motivate them to change from handshake-and-nod-of-course-you're-right-[then-ignore] private lobbying, to "alright alright, change the dumb old rule already, anything to stop those pesky critics publicly running down our credibility as a fair-minded sanctioning body!"

Sadly perhaps, my inclination is to just pull the flush handle on the whole thing, and let the "sanctioning bodies" be as slanted as they want, and just forget about trying to beat any records under their phoney-baloney rigged "rules". Instead, my inclination is to ditch the griping/preaching and just build real steam cars that real people will enjoy driving in the real world. Lots of 'em.

The medical nightmares endured by Fred Marriott back in the day, & Chuk in our own time, are also important factors to consider. "It's your life" and admirable courage, endurance, and risk are not to be dismissed, but actual cost and benefit must be considered.

I am fascinated by the apparently unflappable religious conviction, held by a microscopic minority of tech-fanatics [reality check: only a few thousand, at most, of Earth's 6 billion or so human population, actually knows/cares, or has any opinion on the matter], that "steam cars are dead, and always will be dead; negligibly-interesting historical footnote curiosities at best". The current race-sanctioning-body rules, which I think will eventually be re-considered and reasonably changed [merely a matter of time and pressure], seem to reflect that view.

30 years ago, that was also the "consensus opinion" about EVs. "Oh, those silly outdated inherently-impractical battery-powered contraptions that little old ladies piloted around at 20mph until the 1920s". Fast forward to now, where corporate PR types -- who will be conveniently retired by then -- are forecasting that all cars will be EVs in 10-20 years [never mind Tesla's latest round of layoffs; however, I admire & applaud Elon Musk's laser-focus on alt-tech vehicle cost-effectiveness; us steamerites would do well to follow his lead in that department]. A few decades ago "the future" was going to be flying cars, nuclear cars, 200mph radio-controlled freeways, and/or Wankel engines. Anybody remember when Corvair/VW/air-cooled-IC and/or turbine cars were the obvious inevitable way of the future? Those looked pretty believable until the early 1970s.

[Edit: The point being that yesterday's "impossible" is often today's "inevitable future", just as yesterday's "inevitable future" is often the target of today's ridicule.]

OK, sorry, going off topic here. ""Whither goest thou, America, in thy shiny car in the night?"

I think I'll re-watch that groovy '60s music video now, to recharge the good vibes...

Peter
"Mad wild steam car prophet"



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2019 12:28AM by Peter Brow.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 20, 2019 02:06AM
Whoa, is that Austin Powers and Mrs.Kensington dancing in the audience at 02.11? LOL

Gerry & The Pacemakers - Ferry Cross The Mersey (1965); Top Of The Pops, in case the YouTube link changes in the future....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2019 02:13AM by Peter Brow.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 20, 2019 07:55AM
If steam storage is allowed the person with the most storage will win the LSR
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 23, 2019 12:04AM
Hi Don,

I don't take sides on this issue, or most other controversies lately, but I wanted to mention that I have seen arguments in both directions on that topic. It has been said that with the right boiler/burner designs, a car with a no-storage or minimal-storage steam generator could beat a steam car running mostly or entirely on stored energy, even in relatively short speed-record runs. I'm only noting that the argument has been made, not that I agree or disagree with it. Developing an informed opinion on that topic would require going over lots of data and complicated calculations, which I don't have time for right now. The "nuts and bolts details" on my fun road car project are eating up all my time and brainpower.

Peter
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