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Vintage LSR vehicles

Posted by Arch-Tone 
Vintage LSR vehicles
January 09, 2019 11:07AM
Ron,

I’m starting a new thread because I wanted to comment without bringing Don’s “Doble Boiler” thread too far off topic:

I am a huge fan of the Stanley Rocket and the Wogglebug....in my opinion these turn of the century, upside-down canoe steam LSR cars are some of the coolest vehicles, both aesthetically and mechanically. I am seriously considering building a quasi-replica of one of these with a more modern, high performance steam system under the hood (hull?). Those guys had some serious cojones to attempt those speeds while in a vehicle that’s essentially on fire and made out of wood. No seat belts or safety harnesses, airbags or roll cages and with really lousy brakes....all this while driving on sand.

Jamison
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 09, 2019 11:22AM
So, How would you build your boiler?
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 09, 2019 12:18PM
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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:36AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 09, 2019 02:16PM
Don,

I would have to agree with Ron, you can’t go too wrong with an Ofeldt center drum boiler. I started fabricating a stainless steel tube boiler that uses Ofeldt type coils but instead of a single, large diameter drum it uses (7) 2” diameter stainless tubes tied together to achieve a similar volume....but with a fraction of the weight. The coils are arranged in a straight line, like the marine version Ofeldt and similar to how Tony Grzyb does his boilers. I put the project on the back burner when I found a WW1 era steam engine that was pulled off a US Navy steamship...probably used for driving a blower of some sort. I’ve already installed it on the go kart and drove it around my yard some. The boiler was working poorly and I am in the process of redesigning / rebuilding it using the same tubing, drum and shell. The new version is almost complete and test firings have shown a lot of potential.

Jamison
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 09, 2019 03:29PM
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:34AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 14, 2019 11:59AM
I too like the Blackstaff. A couple of pictures to show.

The way Babcock & Willcox would describe this boiler is as a Water-tube Boiler. This is opossed to a Mono-tube Boiler. I guess we can classify our boilers into three (3) categories, Fire-tube, Water-tube and Mono-tube. However, we all classify the coils that are so successful in the Ofeldt as Ofeldt Coils. Ofeldt and Blackstaff are the water-tube type.

Important note on the Ofeldt coil is that it works best with a 1-1/2 pitch for best natural circulation. This is given the tube diameters 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2".


Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 14, 2019 12:38PM
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:31AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 14, 2019 06:23PM
Hey-

Having "been there and done that"-I agree completely with the previous mention about how those guys who did 120+MPH with tiller steering, minimal brakes, and very rudimentary tires...they had mucho huevos!! Marriot's goggles blew off once and he had to finish the run driving blind looking out the side!!

There is an existing replica of the Stanley Rocket that ran at the Stanley Centennial in 2006. It was built by a fella named Frost-I'm sure some of the readers here(Rolly?) could tell you much more about it than I can. I think it has a Stanley 20 HP for an engine.

Of course, there is a more recent "vintage" LSR vehicle down in S Florida that looks somewhat bent and banged up.... LOL! I could tell a few tales about that one!



Chuk


Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 14, 2019 08:20PM
My current "M2017" boiler concept is kinda like the Blackstaff... horizontal drums rather than central/vertical like Ofeldt. Serpentine tubes rather than coils, though. The only tricky bit is the tube spacing. Might need about 2x the gas flowpath area of a Stanley boiler for a given output, with a Stanley-like burner. Mini test boiler, with one tube, is planned to find out...
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 14, 2019 08:47PM
chuk williams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey-..............
> There is an existing replica of the Stanley Rocket
> that ran at the Stanley Centennial in 2006. It was
> built by a fella named Frost-I'm sure some of the
> readers here(Rolly?) could tell you much more
> about it than I can. I think it has a Stanley 20
> HP for an engine................................
> Chuk


We attended the 2006 Land speed record centennial with our 1916 Stanley Mt. Wagon. Set up with two boilers, our Mt. Wagon was raced in New York its first two years of its life. We worked on that particular replica Stanley Rocket for the 2006 Land speed centennial. Ron Hardwig and I Dip Lagged the boiler after Brent Campbell and others had finished doing the most of the plumbing. Ron and I also did some other installations, but working together, we got it running for the event. What the Stanley Rocket had in it was really a 10 HP type 6 engine and rear axle. It was really just a visual of the Stanley Rocket. The replica Stanley Rocket ran OK, but it wasn't any speed demon. To be completely honest, the speed limit on the beach was something like 20 M.P.H., so there wasn't any opportunity to really open it up.


Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 15, 2019 04:55AM
Hi Ron,
You bring out a good point and after studying the Bolsover boiler (I like this design also), this lead me to this design. This is a hybrid concept, I think its been posted before. The logic is to use the low slope outer diameter coils as Mono-tube and the standard Ofeldt as natural circulation. I'm pretty sure this would work fairly well. The goal is to have a once-through boiler. Not sure if its obtainable. Also important to note, to have a drum (accumulator/buffer).

Thanks,
Rick


Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 15, 2019 08:56AM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:31AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 15, 2019 11:55AM
Hi Jamison,
Pretty sure you won't mind, I would like to offer up a response to Don? I can provide it back in the Doble thread, if you want.

"So, How would you build your boiler?
Don"

Ron gets me thinking and leads me to ideas like his reference to the Bolsover. I'll provide a response tonight, when home with access to my Tera-harddrive. To trigger me on the thought, the thread will be about; increasing diameter sizes/wire fill, use of recirculation coils with a mono-tube and position of coils relative to burner along with burner configuration.

After this explaination, I have been giving some thought how to build a boiler to produce super critical steam. Hope to provide that concept later.
OK...more to come.

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 15, 2019 08:46PM
Hi Don,
How I would build my boiler - part 1. I want to start with some concepts that I have been working on. First is increasing tubing sizes. The thought is to wind coils with and without wire in them. I experimented with winding wire using a drill w/eye bolt in the chuck. Take the loop end of wire and put it through the eye. Then hold the other end in a vice (picture fuzzy...sorry). Spin the drill till you get a straight, tight spiral. I think 20 feet of tubing is doable to insert the spiral wire. The tubing needs to be straightened. Use the drill to then screw the wire into the tube. It goes in quite easily.

The wire fill helps to prevent kinking. Then make your coils accordingly.

The mono-tube sequence will go as follows: 1/4" - 20' , 3/8" w/2-wire fill - 20', 3/8" - 20' (no fill) then using 1/2" - 20' w/4-wire fill and last would be 1/2" - 20' (no fill). The coil would feed into a drum. Connections between series are brazed at areas away from the burner. In summary,
you will have 100' of mono-tube generating coil to an accumulator.

OK...more to come.

Kind regards,
Rick


Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 16, 2019 06:34AM
Hi Rick,
Sorry, but what is the wire for?
And what temperature / pressure can the copper tubing take?
I am setting boiler control with a needle valve to adjust input water and a high temperature shutoff in series with a high pressure shutoff. So if either limit is reached the fire shuts off.
For LSR a steady state can be maximized with the dyno.
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 16, 2019 09:28AM
Hi Don,

Could you please tell me how you are setting feed water with a needle valve. Is it a flow motor control?
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 16, 2019 10:09AM
Frustrated,
I am interested in steady state performance at different heat and flow levels so I can evaluate this thing.
For now the water input from a 1200PSI pump will be controlled by hand manipulation.
See pic


Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 16, 2019 11:49AM
Ron,
2400 PSI, that has to be hot as hell. My engine is all aluminum, melts at 1250F, 50% strength at 600F.
So, how do you use 2400psi steam? Slowly?
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 16, 2019 11:53AM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:30AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 16, 2019 04:45PM
So all that pressure is for storage
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 16, 2019 05:25PM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:29AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 10:31AM
Ron, I was getting at for the LSR,
. Same question
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 12:01PM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:29AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 12:46PM
Ron,
When I am on the start line for the LSR I want to build as much heat as possible in the boiler, don`t you think?
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 01:12PM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:28AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 01:39PM
Ron I am very impressed with your reply's, they are well thought out.

Quote
Ron
so have a good relief valve and "top blow"

I am actually using a safety/relief at the highest point in my direct injection system.

I'm using a feed-pump coupled to my engine.

At this point I am matching the gear ratio by the #35 chain sprockets trying 3 different sprockets on the feed pump. The sprocket on the crank is as small as possible I think is 32, the pump sprocket sizes is 46, 44, and 38.

I spent alot of time selecting the check-valve after the pump.

Just for good measure I'm going to archive the check valve

[www.swagelok.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2019 02:30PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 02:20PM
Ron,
My control system shuts the fire off if the pressure or temperature get to high that is all I am using.
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 02:43PM
X



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 06:27AM by IronChief.
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 03:05PM
Ron,
that is why the Doble impressed me so much, Jay said he could do 60 MPH and keep 1000 PSI steam in a car almost 6000 lbs. So how hard would it be to go 150 mph in a 1500 lb car?
Don
Re: Vintage LSR vehicles
January 17, 2019 03:15PM
My safety release is no more than 2800psi. When you are using direct hydraulic driven pressure the pulse needs to be overbuilt so that why the check valve has double the pressure. I have worked on systems that are at 2400 psi C25. active gas pressure. If you have worked on that gas pressure you wouldn't be throwing numbers like that. Incidentally all the test runs I do are not public. Behind closed doors only, with invitation only.
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File Name File Size   Posted by Date  
Blackstaff 1.jpg 9.6 KB open | download Rick.H 01/14/2019 Read message
Blackstaff 2.jpg 10.1 KB open | download Rick.H 01/14/2019 Read message
IMG_3597 (1024x768).jpg 686.7 KB open | download chuk williams 01/14/2019 Read message
'16 Mt Wagon on San Juan Island.jpg 48.3 KB open | download SSsssteamer 01/14/2019 Read message
Image (4) reduce.jpg 957.1 KB open | download Rick.H 01/15/2019 Read message
Image (5) reduce.jpg 1017.9 KB open | download Rick.H 01/15/2019 Read message
Tube Stages.jpg 252.4 KB open | download Rick.H 01/15/2019 Read message
IMG_1354.JPG 108.8 KB open | download Rick.H 01/15/2019 Read message
IMG_1355.JPG 125.9 KB open | download Rick.H 01/15/2019 Read message
IMG_1357.JPG 141.7 KB open | download Rick.H 01/15/2019 Read message
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