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Doble Boiler

Posted by donmaguire1 
Doble Boiler
December 21, 2018 07:35PM
Hi to all,
I am building a Doble type boiler to run my steam engines.
Does anyone know how to control water input to the monotube boiler?
Best, Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 22, 2018 02:50AM
Hi, Don

Your question many times covered in this forum very informative. Just read thoroughly appropriate threads and follow appropriate links. There lots of info.

Best luck.
Serge
Re: Doble Boiler
December 22, 2018 07:35AM
Hi , Can you turn me on to a thread or link? Anything about the Doble boiler.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 22, 2018 08:29AM
Hi, my coil stack, about 500" of ss tubing.
Don


Re: Doble Boiler
December 23, 2018 08:43AM
Hi all,
This is my burner. It has an automotive type fuel injection that is fully controllable
Merry X-Mass
Don.


Re: Doble Boiler
December 23, 2018 09:43AM
Sweet! Ken has been talking about something like that for years...
Re: Doble Boiler
December 23, 2018 12:13PM
Hi Don

To my regret I can't put link to the thread which could cover the subject. May be special thread devoted to specifically Doble boiler control system even does not exist, but there are really lot of materials about controling monotube, spreaded among different threads. When I read them around other steam stuff I came to understanding how it works. And I've spent couple of years on it, though... And as I understood from this reading, Doble control system is not the perfection in itself and there are lot of other methods and systems even more workable. Here link where You can find R.J. Smith patent from which You can get the points of controlling monotube boiler. [steamautomobile.com]
I like Your burner but it is better to get a blue flame.

Good luck,
Serge
Re: Doble Boiler
December 23, 2018 02:37PM
Looks like a good boiler and burner, and I agree with Russ above, need more air for combustion. Keep us posted on how the fuel injection system works, looks very interesting. What vehicle is the injection system from and some pencil sketches of the components for the layfolk like myself would be welcome.

-Ron
Re: Doble Boiler
December 27, 2018 02:11AM
Ditto Serge on a blue flame burner. Smoggy hi-radiant yellow flame burners were OK in the 1930s, but "not so much" today. Even Stanley had clean blue flame burners decades earlier. I think that forced-air blue flame burners, with boiler/steam-generator tube stacks to match, are very possible with today's technology.
Re: Doble Boiler
December 27, 2018 10:16AM
I was a little surprised by the color too.
I think (hope) it will clean up when it gets hot and more confined. It is like a flame thrower now.
I have a hair dryer forcing air through a 2" pipe than 3 GM fuel injectors and into the burner.
I was able to turn the fuel injection duration/pulse down till there was very little flame and a lot of air. The flame was red as in picture up or down. I than tried a leaf blower and it blue the flame out, still red. More air isn`t going to help.
I have the same system I have been using on my forge with natural gas for years, works good, not red like with gasoline.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 01:51PM
Hi all, some pictures of the boiler put together. There is a problem with reading the boiler pressure. The gauge on the inlet side reads 700 PSI when the pump is turned on with no fire, from friction in the 500 ft of tubing. I would have to turn the pump off to detect steam pressure. Any ideas to solve this problem?
Don
PS: Jay Leno`s 1925 doble showes a very red flame in his movie. He has a small window to see in the burner flame.


Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 02:59PM
A picture of Jay`s boiler flame.
My father the engineer said red flames can be as hot as blue flames. Jay `s red flame is said to be 3000F.
Don


Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 03:04PM
Put the gauge at the output end which is where the steam is going to be, and this is what you are interested in! Presumably the water coming out at that end is, when not firing, only at the pressure which has survived passing through 500ft of tube. If the pipe were long enough, friction would reduce flow to nil and pressure likewise.

Mike
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 03:31PM
Mike,
I tried a gauge on the steam side once on another boiler 150PSI, 600F, it burned the gauge to destruction, than I tried one of the loop things, still no good How do you keep the gauge cool?
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 05:07PM
Quote: "How do you keep the gauge cool?"

It's called a siphon. Just a loop under the gauge that traps water and insulates the gauge.

-Ron


Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 05:27PM
Combustion: As I understand it, burning liquid fuel, the blue flame is the hottest as it is complete combustion of the fuel and as far as i know, the only way to achieve that is by complete vaporization of the fuel. I think you need a sleeve with holes inside the mixing tube that can warm up and server as a vaporizer for "post-mix" vaporization. That is what I would try and I would be very interested to know if it works.

-Ron
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 06:14PM
Ron,
I used the loop in the past, like the one in your pic. $10 on Ebay It did not save the gauge.
Is 3000F like the Doble Not enough heat.
The long range plan is to use all this stuff for a steam land speed record attempt So economy isn`t a concern.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 06:44PM
Mike
Actually the flow of water going out of the boiler, no fire,was close to the rated pump displacement going in.
The plan is to have a line from the boiler in a bucket of water and than the loop. I messed up 2 gauges from heat already
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 09:31PM
Don,

Burning the gauge up even with a siphon, mount the gauge further away, with like 4 feet of tubing. If it's mounted right at the boiler, the heat is probably traveling through the metal. And too, plastic body gauges are not rated for steam service, but they can work mounted far enough away.Heat will not travel a dead ended line.

For that type of performance requirement, I think you'll need a lot more heat, like a few million BTU 20 gallons per hour. On my little Locomobile with far less performance requirement, my burner is about 300k BTU. That's about an 8 - 10 ho setup. I think the Doble in that video is like 1.2 Million BTU.

Flame color, With a cutting torch, set it to a yellow flame try to heat some steel, set it to blue flame and compare.

-Ron
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 09:56PM
Ron,
True about the 4' of tubing that should do it + the loop.
Flame color not relevant to gasoline.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 29, 2018 11:35PM
Don,

Have a look at this thread

[steamautomobile.com]

Ron



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2018 11:37PM by IronChief.
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 10:52AM
Ron
Interesting, watched the movie, still looks mostly red.
I queried Google and got this
Blue flames aren't always hotter than yellow flames, because the color of light emitted by the flame can depend on exactly which atoms and molecules are in the flame. ... This does not mean that the temperature of the whole fire went up, just that these chemicals made the color change.

Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 11:21AM
Don,

They went on to write:

"However, there are cases that follow the simple pattern you ask about, where the flame color changes smoothly from yellowish to bluish as it gets hotter. Simple burners fueled by oxygen and propane typically behave this way. "

[van.physics.illinois.edu]

Here is the video after changes were made:

[www.youtube.com]

I think 6- 8 of these arranged on a circle and angled all the same direction for a cyclonic flow of heat would make one heck of a fire capable of the performance you're looking for. It all starts with the heat, and works from there. Boiler and engine design are important, but the amount of heat is of utmost importance.

-Ron
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 11:59AM
Ron,
It is blue, nice job on it.
It was said the orange color was from incomplete combustion also that the temperature difference from red to blue was only in the hundreds not thousands.
I am going to run it the way it is. I still think as it warms up the combustion will improve.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 12:31PM
Does anybody have a good 12v spark plug igniter?
To make spark to light the fire now I am using a drill running a car distributor. It works good but too big.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 12:49PM
Has anyone used alcohol as a fuel? It may not need preheating to get a blue flame.Smaller molecules. Problem solved.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 02:07PM
Hi Don,

For ignition, maybe a diesel glow plug, or a Model T buzz coil?

[www.amazon.com]

[www.macsautoparts.com]

Peter



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2018 02:20PM by Peter Brow.
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 02:52PM
donmaguire1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ron,
> It is blue, nice job on it.
> It was said the orange color was from incomplete
> combustion also that the temperature difference
> from red to blue was only in the hundreds not
> thousands.
> I am going to run it the way it is. I still think
> as it warms up the combustion will improve.
> Don

Don, It has been my experiece that when one runs an orange flame, there is soot generated that builds up in the heat exchanger (Fire Tubes, or Water Tubes), insulating the heat from the water. A clean burning blue flame will keep the boiler soot free longer and working better. The boiler is all about capturing heat from the fuel. It all counts.
SSsssteamer



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2018 10:22PM by SSsssteamer.
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 03:27PM
SS,
So what about alcohol as a fuel?
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
December 30, 2018 04:55PM
Never thought alcohol much good as a fuel - why buy oxygen when it's free all around us?

Mike
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