Doble Boiler

Hi, Don
You already have tubing surface area more than adequate for 500 pounds an hour steam rate at least, with at least 80% efficiensy and You want go for even more tubing... Would it not be better to optimise stack arrangement You already have? Less tubing is a more compact and lightweight boiler... Look at already known arrangements of good boilers and You will see more dense wounding of coils. Especially in the colder sections, I would suggest You to ask Tom Kimmel about it all and even to visit him, and look for Yourself but dont know is it possible for You.

Serge

Hi Don,
I admire your winding and building capability. Something I'm watching carefully for my own boiler builds. Note that I don't have the boiler experience that Rolly has but a fair amount with what I've done i.e. steam scooter and Ofeldt boiler. As you may know is that I'm a BSME.

A comment on Serge's response and from a mathematical stand point, he is correct on enough tubing to generate the BTU you're after. Respectfully, I think that to add more tubing is not the answer. Note that Serge mentioned Tom Kimmel's boilers. I have pictures and observed all the Kimmel Boilers in his shop and a couple of things stands out, different from your approach and worth mentioning. The one I'll refer to is the one (many) he built for a Hayabusa Motorcycle that is taking the land speed record. I hesitate to attach pictures without Tom's permission.

Hayabusa Steam Motorcycle Land Speed Record

- the hot gas flow on Kimmel boiler is circumferential, radially inflow and exhausted out the center; a fairly high Reynolds number. In other words, very fast turbulent flow.

- the tube nest starts with 3/8 (OD) SS and increases to 1/2 (OD) SS tubing. The ratio is ~ 1/3 - 3/8 and 2/3'rds 1/2.

- the total tube lengths are comparable to yours. However, arranged by cylinders, not pancakes.

- he maintains a specific spacing between tubes to maintain the proper flow. My estimate is 3/16 on the 3/8 and 1/4 on the 1/2 tubing respectfully. This setting needs to be developed per your design.

- the center is specifically left open and the 3/8 tubing is wound cylindrical on the inner coils. The economizer if I may is the inner most coils.

Don, I'm following your progress closely. Again, you have some real talent in winding coils. I sincerely hope this information is helpful.

Kind regards,
Rick

Attached is a tube configuration designed by Raytheon I’m guessing in the late1940-50
Raytheon was studding heat transfer methods for cooling radar systems. They found
turbulent flow did the most work passing around a curved surface.
They took a copper tube and placed in a die and hydraulically expanded it to the configuration shown. Off course this would be extremely expansive to build a complete boiler this way. They found 1/8 tube spacing between tubes in the configuration shown,
However gas pass spacing has to be taken into consideration. I believe Doble had formulas in his work for calculating this space and maintaining back pressure for combustion of the fuel used. I was disappointed in the new Doble books as I was privileged to read Jims original manuscripts. To me all the good stuff was left out. Pretty pictures I did not need.
Gas pass space and combustion volume is in itself is a whole other study, there are formulas in Walton’s book that Abner used, and most likely more modern books on the subject.
I have never built a monotube steam generator but have played with many designs and give those that do much respect. I have studied both Doble and White and both have had control problems in maintaining temperature and pressure. Both have burned out the last sections of the coil stack and the temperature generated is way beyond the best oils for piston engines. I always felt the bottom two windings of the White should have been the feed water and the next one up the superheater coil. Dick Wells did an extensive study of his White and recorded the outlet pressure and temperature, high fluxuations both in temperature and pressure. He also had to wind new bottom coils for his generator.

Rolly

Hi Rick,
My method of coiling runs the tubing between the rows so I can`t make the gap less than the dia. of the tubing.
So how do they connect the stacks and keep them close together?
Don

Don-

After a look at your coil stack, what I see as your problem of low efficiency is that your coils are not spaced correctly-as noted previously by Serge. The correct spacing for your tubing should be 1/4 of the outside diameter of the tube. The spacing between the individual pancakes should also be as close as possible to the same 1/4 OD air gap.
This gap may seem a bit too close for some people, but my experience with this spacing-as well as advice from people way smarter than me-has shown me that it works very well. The scrubbing action of the hot gases flowing thru the close spacing results in a very noticeably better heat transfer.
Another thing that looks to be a bit of a problem with your coil stack is the fact that there is no installed method of maintaining the correct spacing. The natural springback of the tubing, as well as the reaction to heating/cooling with cause your spacing to be all over the chart. Spacers of the correct thickness can be made of s/s strips, fastened in place, and will do the job nicely.

All the best of luck with your efforts!


Chuk

Don I can’t speak for Doble’s work but I had the opportunity to dissect the 1907
White generators and built a ¼ scale model. Of course the White is not a continuous tubing
type of winding but separate windings piped with fittings together.
White used metal stripes tied with clips to each grid of tubing see-attached photos.
These also kept the winding from un winding and twisting out of shape during heating and cooling.
The spacing between coils was 1/3 tube diameter.
Rolly

Hi Don,
Kimmel boiler was wound with wood pieces, sacrificial, to assure the tube spacing. After winding, the whole thing was burned like a campfire. The wood pieces were like kindling and easily removed after burning. This is what I heard and saw the wood in there during some pictures. His winder could control the pitch of the coil fairly well, i.e. an Ofeldt coil works best with a 1-1/4 to a 1-1/2 inch pitch.

Then I believe they power washed it to pretty it up along with some dipping in an acidic solution. It was an arduous process.

Note that the speed bike boiler was all coils(like a car coil spring) as opposed to pancakes. So the wood spacers were placed to space the next outer coil and so on.

How's it made - Steam Engine

I included a link to a Steam Engine video Harry Schoel had made. Sort of interesting but the main point I'm trying to convey is about 2/3rds the way through. He shows how he made pancake coils for his engine. His spacing was assured by using a lever and wire wrapping. Note his important spacing is between pancakes. Each pancake was silver soldered away from the burners. His hot gas flow was centrufugal and radially inward exhausting out the center.

Since you have an axial flow, I would focus on the spacing within your pancakes...just a thought. Like we all struggle with, how to build the best design and in that order...best of luck. Keep building, I'm following you.

Clarification on order, I consider how I can build it and then design it...another thought.

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,
Rick

Don,
I performed a calculation using your 48 Sq-ft value. Assumption: from the Steam Boat Guys, I applied a value of 2 Boiler HP/Sq-ft. This is what has been commonly refereed to for a mono-tube boiler. Note that I have reviewed this with several engineers and one who is a Doctor of ME.

Simple calculation -> 24 Boiler HP

Then calc. the Btu/hr using 1 Boiler HP = 33,475 Btu/hr.... -> 803,400 Btu/hr

To give you an idea of the mechanical HP, 1 HP = 2544.43 Btu/hr.... -> ~315 HP This is land speed record territory by the way!

However, others have tried to wind this much tubing all of one size expecting it to be the outstanding performer like the calculation above. Their failure is because, do to the transitions from water to steam and vice-a-versa throughout the tube path. This is the reason for adding greater size tubing as water progresses through the tube path. Water will expand 10 times its size through the temperature gradient you have. A good design lends itself to a more gradual increases in tube sizes.

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,
Rick

Rick - in 2012 I was playing with the idea of building a steam powered version of a 1920 chain drive cyclecar made by GN, for which we had all the parts. I had to abandon the project because the UK vehicle registration authorities had become obsessed with originality so that a radical change of engine from a two cylinder V twin ic engine to a 1911 Stanley Model 60 engine powered by steam could not be registered for road use. However I had gone a long way with the design and had done the maths as far as my limited ability allowed and done many drawings.

It's odd how things come together as, not at that time knowing of the Tom Kimmel generator for the Haybusa bike, I planned to make what I would call a toroidal generator, fired on the outside of the coils and exhausting though the centre. It was planned to be a Lamont style with the outer helical coils (donuts not pancakes) forming the Lamont portion and superheater with the economiser near the middle. The generator would have stood upright like a wheel with the burner tangentially placed at the bottom and the exhaust coming out of the middle. All of this could fit into the rather small car under the hood with the Stanley engine under the floor driving via a countershaft with two sets of dog engaged sprocket to give two gears, the original GN having a similar but three speed transmission.

You'll no doubt be interested to hear that I planned to line the outer casing with ceramic tile elements from a gas stove to create a large radiant heat source which would also direct the flame around the outside of the coils and really make good use of the fire.

It would have been a great project but I did have a lot of fun working it out. The GN will remain a normal GN.

Incidentally, Chris the originator of the Hyabusa bike also owns the Model H Stanley which I rebuilt and owned from 1992 to 2010.

Cheerio
Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2020 03:51PM by Mike Clark.

Mike - A really nice story! I enjoy it very much!

The design you spoke of is right on the money in my book. As an addition to the ceramic liner that may be interesting also, is that many ceramics include a perlite in it's composition. Hence, not only does the ceramic provide thermo-inertia and emitting, the white color provides significant reflectivity to contain the fire; make it hotter.

This fellow Chris is right up my alley also with an H. As you probably know that I'm building an H with an Ofeldt Burner/Boiler and an 10 Hp Stanley Engine. I just moved my boiler from my storage barn to the basement of my new house this weekend. I'm chomping at the bit to get building this Gentleman's Speedy Roadster. Current focus is to build my new workshop, pole barn on my lot next to my new house.

I'll probably be bouncing some ideas on the H off of you in the future...if you're willing? My intention is to make it look and feel just like an H. Also would like to build the boiler for the next LSR attempt (see the IR thread).

Sincerely,
Rick

Here is a general arrangement of the proposed GN special with the toroidal steam generator under the hood and to the side the Lamont reservoir and to the front, taking air from the front of the car, the tangential burner.

Note the spur gear on the Stanley crank is geared to a countershaft with a dog engaged sprocket on each side which drives to sprockets on the axle shaft. The advantage of the GN is that there is no differential which with skinny tyres is no problem.

Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2020 03:58PM by Mike Clark.

Here is the toroidal steam generator as drawn in 2012. A draft of the idea with a few sums. I later changed the proportions to get a better fit under the hood of the car but you can see the general idea.

I had the burner taking air from the front of the car which was perhaps not the best idea as the changing airflow might have lead to problems.

Mike

Rick if your going to build the Stanley model H, build it as close as you can to the original, find the correct engine, there out there. Your investment will come close to repaying your cost. Start a new tread (Rick’s model H)

If you want to build a steam car with your own design’s, then don’t try to copy the H
Go all out and incorporate all your own designs and thinking, it won’t come close to being worth what you spend except in the satisfaction of proving to yourself what works and does not. I’ve spent a lot of money on the does not’s

Rolly

Hi Rolly,
I will start a new thread on my design/build of my Gentleman Speedy Roadster, a look-alike, .84 scaled down version of a 1908 Stanley Model H. This car has been my favorite since my early days of college.

I'm right in the middle of building my new workshop and not a lot of time for posting at the moment. Need a month or so to get things under toe. My terabyte hard drive is still packed away. My Hardinge HLV Lathe and Bridgeport are still in environmental storage, soon to come out.

You'll be hearing from me in the future...I'll guarantee it. My sincere hope is that it will be interesting and attract folks to the forum. Also, to join SACA.

Kind regards,
Rick

Hi all, To stop so much heat loss out the exhaust I added another 200 ft of 3/8" tubing to the beginning of the coil.See pic.
Testing soon.
Don

Hi all, I built this heat exchanger to preheat the incoming water with steam from the engine exhaust steam.
I have been putting 70 degree water into the boiler., I think this will help with my superheat.
It has 180 ft of 3/8 SS tubing.
See pic
Don

Chuck

Thanks for providing clarity and good guidance in appropriate tube spacing,"1/4 OD air gap". How do you know that you have appropriate draft going by the tubes bank, and can you experience diminishing returns?

Overmod, posted a most intriguing snippet of information a while ago on this thread. Was wondering if anybody could share more insight into the chemical engineering research in the 1980s of Besler tubes mentioned that he was mentioning or explain how to optimize radiant heat transfer in a monotube?

Thanks,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2024 07:59PM by vapor_potentia.

Vapor Potencia-

Ascertaining the hot gas flow through your generator is a very tough thing to do!! I relied on people smarter than me to supply the design of my generators and then I built them!! So far, they've all been successful...

The gas flow through your pancakes must be "corralled"...it must be prevented from taking any path of lesser resistance-rather than the path through the tubing. I use stainless foil and Kaowool to plug the voids between the tubing and the outside containment cover around the generator. I also completely plug the center void of the pancakes with a combination of Kaowool rolled into a compact solid cylindrical shape, surrounded with s/s foil to prevent erosion from the gas flow. The center void facing the combustion chamber is filled with a half inch thick plug of castable refractory, which effectively covers the end of the rolled up Kaowool plug. The smokestack/back end of that rolled up insulation is covered with a simple sheet s/s cover.

It's very possible that your high stack temp is related to the fact that some of your fire is finding a path around your tube stack instead of through it! The amount of tubing that you have in your generator should be more than enough to give you the efficiency you want-I suggest you check those areas I mentioned.... hopefully you'll find what the problem is!!

Regards-

Chuk

So, I have to add 2 cents to this thread. There is a chemical treatment to boiler tubes, to increase the oxide layer that generates more bubbles. This leads to a better steaming rate.

Chuk uses a crud drum to collect the stuff that comes out of the monotube from the intense firing. On Jerry Oliver's steam motorcycle, Richard Smith monotube design, he uses the same crud drum. I think this also serves as a buffer or accumulator for the steam and perhaps a Seperator.

Long story short, my opinion, I don't see much value in a boiler tube treatment that might increase the steaming rate. This is derived from the experience I mention above.

Better, perhaps, to focus on a series of tubes that increases in diameter to allow for the backpressure and expansion of the steam as it goes through the water-to-vapor cycle. Also, put a wire fill within the tube, alternating as one increases the diameter. In talking with Chuk, it takes an enormous amount of water pressure to get out steam pressure in his monotube.

In the Serpolett steam car, the steam driven feedwater pumps were the same size as the engine. This gives light to what is required to make a system like this work.

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