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Doble Boiler

Posted by donmaguire1 
Re: Doble Boiler
January 08, 2019 11:14AM
It's whatever you want to call it smiling smiley

When it comes to steam there is really not much "new under the sun" as they say.

A common misconception that new folks seem to have when they take interest in steam is that there is still a lot new discoveries to be made. The reality is, there were thousands of professional learned men working on the issues of steam and perfecting control systems for the last 200 years. I think the most brilliant pioneer among those was Leon Serpolet. Many of his concepts were "discovered" by others later on.

Here is a good example, we are all familiar with the Stanley Wogglebug, here is a guy named Louis Ross that was at Ormond Beach in 1905.

[myfloridahistory.org]

-Ron


Re: Doble Boiler
January 08, 2019 03:30PM
Ron,
I am not trying to make something new. I just want a boiler to test my rotary steam engines.
This engine is under the sun and is new.
[www.youtube.com]
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
January 08, 2019 08:53PM
Don-

Where are you located? I have the facilities to test your engine-up to point!


Chuk Williams
Re: Doble Boiler
January 09, 2019 08:13AM
Chuck,
I am in West Virginia.
I have tested this engine on 150 lb steam it ran good over 3000rpm no load.
It is vibration free and has 290 degrees of power stroke per revolution.
It is now a 3 stage steam engine the first stage is non expanding, the next 2 stages get 70 degrees cutoff and 290 degrees power stroke each.
see vid: [www.youtube.com]
The engine is now bolted to a 600 ft lb dyno. I need to test it with more steam pressure and flow
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
January 09, 2019 08:40AM
Quote: "Ron,
I am not trying to make something new. I just want a boiler to test my rotary steam engines.
This engine is under the sun and is new.""

Oh I was replying to the compensator valve discussion and different people putting their name on it. Good luck with your project.

-Ron
Re: Doble Boiler
January 10, 2019 10:42AM
Ron,
Yes, my point was that there is something new under the sun and it seams to work well.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
January 23, 2019 11:38AM
Hi All,
Boiler almost ready to test.
Two complete fuel systems one electronic fuel injection, the other direct vaporizing coil.
Control is by preset temperature and pressure limits in series so if one is reached the fire goes out.
Best, Don
.


Re: Doble Boiler
February 01, 2019 10:52AM
I put a site glass in the boiler so I can see the flame


Re: Doble Boiler
February 02, 2019 01:24AM
Sweet test bench setup! Very professional. Window to see the fire, good to have. What are you using for the window? My guess is borosilicate/"Pyrex"? In the way old days they used clear mica fire windows -- still available from McMaster...
Re: Doble Boiler
February 02, 2019 08:01AM
Peter,
I got the site glass from ebay $15 from China. It took over a month to get it.We will see if it is any good.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
February 02, 2019 09:17PM
McMaster-Carr has ceramic "glass" in several different sizes at very reasonable prices, and they'll get it to you in 1-2 days!!

[www.mcmaster.com]

I have sight glasses in every generator I build-they make tuning the burner much, much easier!


Chuk



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2019 01:34PM by chuk williams.
Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 07:27AM
Chuk,
The high temperature 2" sight glass on McMasters is $415.
The 2.5" X .600" one I got from Ebay was $6.99. This is the lens only.

Tempered glass mirror high temperature perspective window flange mirror 50-65mm

Don
Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 09:52AM
Don-

For your future builds-this is what McMaster offers:


Clear Very High-Temperature Glass Ceramic

Color: Amber
Max. Temperature: 1255° F
Fabrication: Annealed
Porosity: 0%
Compressive Strength: Not rated
Combining the transparency of glass with the high heat resistance of ceramic, glass ceramic withstands temperatures up to 1255° F and resists rapid temperature changes.

Thick. Thick. Tolerance Wd. Lg. Each
0.188" -0.016" to 0.016" 3" 3" 84815K43 $4.30
0.197" -0.016" to 0.016" 2" 2" 84815K41 2.24
0.197" -0.016" to 0.016" 4" 4" 84815K45 9.24
0.197" -0.016" to 0.016" 5" 5" 84815K47 12.83
0.197" -0.016" to 0.016" 6" 6" 84815K49 19.60

Cheers-

Chuk
Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 02:14PM
Hi Chuk,
I searched McMasters (0.197" -0.016" to 0.016" 2" 2" 84815K41 2.24) and MSC for those items. They only have mounted ones.Can you help?
I would buy 2 at that price.
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 03:24PM
Don,

Look under “Raw materials”...then “Ceramics”...then “Glass, mica, ceramics and graphite” in McMaster Carr.
These are screenshots from the McMaster app on my iPad:

Jamison



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2019 03:27PM by Arch-Tone.


Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 05:05PM
I spent a lot time messing with some ni-chrome IR heaters and I know from experience that Pyrex glass melts. Im curious why no one has brought up quartz.
Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 06:56PM
Jeremy,

The $415 sight glass that Don found in McMaster is made out of quartz, rated at 1,600 deg F. Good stuff....but expensive.
The ceramic glass has a 1,255 deg F rating at a tiny fraction of the cost. Unless he needs the extra 345 deg F difference and the mounting...I would go with the ceramic.

Jamison
Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 07:23PM
Ok say you need a disk of quartz, it sure as not as expensive as that.

Quote
quartz
[www.ebay.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2019 07:52PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: Doble Boiler
February 04, 2019 10:03PM
Jeremy,

With an estimated delivery 30 days after order, from China.

The trade off; McMaster probably has it in stock.
Re: Doble Boiler
February 06, 2019 12:48PM
I am having a hell of a time getting SS fittings to seal.
I use Teflon tape and tighten the shit out of it, it leaks, i give it another full turn, it leaks, give it another full turn, it still leaks.
Is there anything except Teflon that works?
Don
Re: Doble Boiler
February 06, 2019 01:12PM
Teflon tape is no good.

This is all I use for steam fittings and it's never failed me. Jomar Green stuff.

[www.amazon.com]
Re: Doble Boiler
February 10, 2019 07:38AM
Don, a quick aside...I need Peter's help on Doble Engines.

Hi Peter,
Need your super power on the Doble Engines? If we get too long, we need to start another thread. Correct me if this summary is incorrect?

Note that their are two (2) types of compounds, the direct pass (AKA Woolf) and the receiver type (Receiver Compound). If using 2-valves, first is the HP valve and the 2nd is a Direct Pass Valve in the Woolf Configuration. All piston valves discussed here are the 2-lobe, bar bell configuration.
.
Doble Engine Configurations

Model B - 2-Cylinder, Double Acting Uniflow, D-slide Valve and Joy Valve Gear

Model C - Unknown

Model D - 2-Cylinder Compound, Double Acting, 2-Piston Valve, Joy Valve Gear, Woolf (Direct Pass)

Model E - 4-Cylinder Compound, Double Acting (2 HP & 2 LP), 4-Piston Valve (2 HP & 2 Pass Through), Stephenson's Valve Gear

Model F - Same as Model E

Besler Airplane Engine - 2-Cylinder Compound in V configuration, Double Acting, 2-Piston Valve in a Radial Engine Eccentric Configuration?

First Car he built as a teenager, a White Engine 2-Cylinder Compound, Double Acting with 2-Piston Valves in a Joy Valve Gear configuration along with a Simpling Valve system for starting from a stall.

This also leads me to ask, how did Doble do Simpling? Looking for this information for the Bulletin article I'm writing. Also wondering if the Tri-lobe Piston Valve was used? I'm going to do more research on the valve details, i.e. what is the steam and exhaust lap on the various piston valves...I have some ideas.

Kind regards,
Rick



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2019 07:40AM by Rick.H.
Re: Doble Boiler
February 10, 2019 07:47PM
Hi Rick,

There's lots of Kryptonite holes in my "super powers". LOL. But you never know what's in the old memory banks... sometimes I don't know what I know either until I think about it, then it's "whoa, I can't believe I remembered all that!" Other times, it's "I can't believe I _don't_ remember [or never knew] that!" -- note the Stanley Fusible Plug thread.

On your list, I _think_[?] that the Model C was the Doble-Detroit, with the features you list for Model B. I don't know what Models A & B had in the engine or boiler department, though I think that Model A had a firetube boiler. Early on, Doble preferred a water-level boiler, until the fiasco with his burnout-prone Doble-Detroit teakettle, then he went monotube, and late in life he commented that he never did better with monotube controls than with the E steam generator with normalizer. He also admired the White compound engine, but not its under-the-front-hood location, preferring simpler, more-durable, and more mechanically-efficient direct drive on the rear axle, as in the Stanley cars.

Model F, I know was a 2-cylinder double-acting compound with multi-ring piston valves, but with a "block and frame-rod", horizontal inline-twin construction and direct drive/axle-mounted like a Stanley. Somebody once commented that it looked like what Stanley would have built in the late 1920s if they had stayed in business that long and had followed a progressive R&D program. Very different from his best-known model, the Series E, which is as you describe. Initially the F engine had severe balance problems due to the 2 different-sized/mass pistons, reportedly shaking the cowl of at least one car it was installed in, but somebody other than Abner [Warren Doble?] fixed that with improved counterweights on the crankshaft. I believe that this was the type of Doble engine which was later used in Howard Langdon's famous/infamous "Green Monster" car... which white-knuckle scared the willies out everyone who took a ride, and was suspected of being capable of beating the steam land speed record despite having the aerodynamic efficiency of a parachute...

I don't know how Doble simpled his compound engines. I seem to recall reading that he had trouble with it.

Don't forget the Doble Simplex, an experimental engine/car [reportedly unsuccessful] with, if I recall correctly, a poppet-valve single-acting engine, or, of course, the Paxton Phoenix, Doble's failurelicious foray into the Space Age of steam, some features of which may have partly inspired the advanced roadworthy developments of Ted Pritchard and Peter Pellandine.

Until Jim Crank's eagerly-awaited definitive book about Doble is published, the best sources of information on the Doble cars are J.N. Walton's "Doble Steam Cars" (Kirk Michael, Isle of Man, Britain: Light Steam Power, 1975) and the Doble Notebooks published by SACA and, I believe, available from the SACA Storeroom. I bought my copy of Walton's book at the Stanley Museum in the Stanley Hotel in Colorado; I am not sure if it is still in print, but used copies could probably be located on Amazon or eBay. Nobody knew more about Doble's work than Jim Crank, who had a low opinion of Walton's book and warned readers of the Doble Notebooks that Abner often talked about his unbuilt/untested ideas as if they had been built and tested... Still, both sources are endlessly fascinating reads... I spent many months studying them, many years ago... takes you way down the rabbit hole into a fantastically complex world of 20th Century light steam power experimentation... absolute must-read stuff for anyone interested in Doble's work...

I will avoid putting anybody on the spot by name-dropping, but there are several guys in the Club who know far more about Doble and his cars than I do. Perhaps they will chime in, or at least contact you via e-mail or Private Message. There are a number of top light steam experts -- theoreticians, builders, and operators -- who don't post here. Speaking of which, I should add Jerry Peoples' "Evolution Of The Doble E" [available from the SACA Storeroom, I think] to the "Doble must-read" list...

Abner Doble was something like "the Nikola Tesla of Steam Cars"; idolized by some, criticized by others; brilliant, complex, controversial, flawed, and surrounded by latter-day myth, mystery, and misinformation. Jim Crank, really the pre-eminent expert on Doble, was fascinated by the man and his work, but took a critical approach. Even he did not know everything about Doble; I once asked him how the Doble-Detroit boiler grids were welded and he replied simply "no one knows." So much information about Doble's work, and about other 20th Century steam car experimentation, has simply been lost. I suspect that Jim's book will be an intriguing read.

OK, that's more than enough "deathless prose" for now. I'm supposed to be figuring out a Feedwater Automatic and Low-Water Automatic, my old blueprints of which seem to have disappeared into the mists of time...

Peter
Re: Doble Boiler
February 10, 2019 07:56PM
I think [?] the Model E was a Woolf compound; don't know about the model D.
Re: Doble Boiler
February 11, 2019 04:36AM
Thank you Peter...great enlightenment!
Re: Doble Boiler
March 09, 2019 05:34PM
Hi all,
I got the boiler running ( It wouldn`t burn at all on alcohol?)
Made a lot of steam after a bit of adjusting with gasoline
See pic and poor movie [youtu.be]
Don.


Re: Doble Boiler
March 10, 2019 01:26PM
Hi, after running my boiler I didn`t think it was able to run hot enough. And the tubes were covered with carbon.
I came up with this design for a vaporizing system using stuff I have around the farm.

What distance do I need between the vaporizer outlet and the coil of tubes? If it is to close the fire will miss the tubes


Re: Doble Boiler
March 11, 2019 06:28AM
You want the combustion gasses to pass through the tubes while the flames, not so much. The cold tubes can sometimes quench the flame and produce the type of soot you're trying to avoid.
Re: Doble Boiler
March 12, 2019 06:02AM
Hi Don,
Nice looking rig! I believe you have the steam fever.

Adding to Ken's comment about the "cold tubes", that I think what is really important is if you are getting carbon is that you do not have either the correct fuel to air ratio or incomplete combustion.

Fuel Ratio
Perhaps trying to lean out the mixture to eliminate carbon. This will burn hotter.

Complete Combustion
I know we discussed the hot gas flow from outside to in. I don't know what the outside coils look like. However, they should provide good spacing to provide for complete combustion. If not spaced, then provide an area for combustion.

Think about it and let me know if any questions.

Cheers,
Rick
Re: Doble Boiler
March 19, 2019 02:55PM
Hi this is pics of my vaporizing burner. I tested it today and after messing with air fuel ratio it burned clean, almost no color and loud.
Don


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