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Steam turbine driven turbojet

Posted by novice 
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
May 30, 2019 08:10PM
Hi Steve,
OK...yes, I would love to share ideas on a forced circulation system. We can do it on a new thread?

However, I'm leaning towards a combination natural circulation with significant feed water generation. One of my latest concepts attached.

Its late and got to go to bed,

Kind regards,
Rick


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
May 31, 2019 04:08AM
Rick, I've started a new topic and as soon as I can get some decent drawings from my brother then I'll post them and info to go with them. Right now he is having to use Blender,a drawing/animation program but hopefully sometime in the near future he will have access to Solidworks .
Even though I've been studying steam for a long time I still consider myself just slightly above a beginner compared to some folks here.
I look forward to your input on this and hope some of my ideas will be of use to you.
SteveW
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
May 31, 2019 12:00PM
Hi Steve,
Yes do provide the drawings on the new thread. I'll continue to post on that thread.

To all,
My apologies...my latest Hybid Boiler concept (mono-tub/water tube) design is not in context. Let me explain. Note that I'm a product of an Engineering school in 1984. Babcock and Wilcox were a big influence on us as students. In fact, one of my professors provided me a free book about these guys and it instilled several ideas/concepts that B&W sort of were the fathers of:

- The concept of a Tube boiler, multi-pass that works on a natural flow/circulation method
- Steam drums and Mud drums used to seperate steam and supply water to the tubes, respectfully
- Economizer, better efficiency
- Super Heat, again better efficiency
- Air preheating, Carnot efficiency and some Stoichiometric efficiency
- Not mentioned is this book, Feed Water Heating. This is the biggest gain to be implemented using the steam exhaust heat.

Note that I tried to do all this with my Steam Powered Scooter and not successful with air preheating. Everything else works and helps toward performance...hope you all have seen the video.

Now to put this in perspective. Consider the feed water to the boiler pictured above will go through a Feed Water Heater and Economizer. After the boiler, run the steam through a throttle and on to a Super Heater coil and on to the engine.

Last note is that a Steam Engine is broken down into 3 major components: the burner, boiler and engine (sometimes called expander). These need to perform in concert to get optimum thermal performance. Also note that the control circuit is in series. The boiler will get no more performance than the input of the burner. Then the engine will get no more performance than the boiler. Last is that any feed water heat will get no more than what the engine gives off. Back to the burner, it gets no more heat than that of the heat value of fuel. One interesting note is that burning Hydrogen, provides ~ 3 times the thermal output of gasoline (mole to mole).

Steve, back to you,
I'll go over these other designs as we progress through the new thread. I'm looking forward to it...thank you for the offer! I will have thinking(s) that will include some High Temperature Electrolysis (HTE) and burner to utilize the HHO, also.

PS...I'm working on the mono-tube concepts, the thought process and trying to get my arms around the concept. I consider myself a novice in mono-tubes. Mono-tubes are the ticket to light weight/high steam output. However, mono-tubes have some drawbacks.

Hope this helps,
Rick
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
June 10, 2019 06:46PM
Hypothetical design parameters of the 1942 Leduc's steam turbine thermojet aircraft engine based on 1940 Campini-Caproni prototype:
Boiler efficiency -90%
Steam pressure- 1910 psi
Steam temperature - 1000 F
Steam turbine exhaust - 50 psi
Condensing steam temperature - 298 F
Turbine power - 900 kW/1206 hp@85% efficiency
Energy flow in- 15.1 MMBtu/hr
Steam condenser capacity - 12.1 MMBtu/hr
Steam flow- 10200 lbs/hr
Boiler water feed pump - 45 kW
Compressed air exhaust temperature before jet nozzle- 244 F
Ambient temperature - 86 F
Fan pressure ratio - 1.25
Nozzle pressure ratio -1.15
Air flow- 90 lbs/s
Exhaust velocity- 560 ft/s.
Thrust-1560 lbs
Fuel consumpution static full power-133 gallons/hr

For comparison, propeller driven by the same steam turbine can produce 3000-3500 lbs depending on its diameter.

At very high altitude and speed situation is opposite.
Propeller is producing much less thrust than thermojet.
At 30000 ft and 500 mph:
Fan pressure ratio-1.4
Ram pressure @0.97 inlet efficiency-1.38
Pressure ratio before jet nozzle @0.93 condenser pressure- 1.8
Jet exhaust- 244 F
Jet velocity 1200 ft/s @0.97 nozzle efficiency
Air flow -67 lbs/s
Jet thrust- 974 lbs
At L/D ratio 16.0- aircraft weight is 15000 lbs
Net propulsive power - 969 kW/1298 hp.
It is more than steam turbine's power 1206 hp!


This is the main advantage of this aircraft engine.
Air goes to the boiler already being pressurized in inlet and fan. This allows to have constant boiler output at higher altitudes.
Main disadvantage is low takeoff thrust. To improve it a propeller and variable jet nozzle are required.

If useful fuel weight is 20% of aircraft weight - 3000 lbs, this aircraft can fly 3 hours at 500 mph@30000ft.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2019 08:28PM by novice.


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
June 17, 2019 08:53PM
Hi Novice,
Any word on a steam powered tip jet in application of a helicopter? With tip jets, the craft does not require a tail rotor for controlling the anti-torque.

In college I actually sent away for and got back a propane pressure jet set of plans and specs. These pressure jets were at the tips of the helicopter concept.

Anyway...thought I'd ask.

Cheers,
Rick
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
June 21, 2019 04:17PM
There were and are several helicopters with a tip-jet engines powered by steam/oxygen products of hydrogen peroxide reaction. It is not cheap and not energy dense fuel.
It is possible to build a helicopter with steam engine or steam turbine, but not easy to design steam condenser, unless it is enclosed in ducted cooling fan.

Steam engine powered helicopter
[patents.google.com]


Robinson 66, for example, has takeoff power 270hp, continuous 224 hp.
[robinsonheli.com]

Without steam condenser every minute 37 lbs/4.4 gallons of water will be lost if net Rankine cycle efficiency is 20%.
With 75% capacity condenser that loss will be just 1.1 gallon per minute. But when efficiency of condenser is approaching 100% its weight and size will be significantly higher.


[youtu.be]
[youtu.be]
[youtu.be]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2019 04:53PM by novice.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
June 21, 2019 04:47PM
May 1954 aircraft propulsion study by Fraas and Savolainen:

Vapor-Cycle Compressor-jet

The wide-spread use of vapor cycles has directed attention to water as a working fluid for the thermodynamic cycle of an aircraft power plant. The principal difficulty associated with such a power plant is the size, weight, and drag associated with the condenser. In attempting to establish the proportions of such a power plant, it soon became evident that only by going to high temperatures and pressures and by using the cycle in conjunction with a compressor-jet engine could a reasonably promising set of performance characteristics be obtained by superimposing the water-vapor cycle on a compressor-jet cycle, the power generated in the steam turbine could be used to drive the air compressor, while the condenser that would serve as the heat dump for the steam cycle could also serve to heat the air of the compressor-jet cycle.With this arrangement, the air pressure drop across the condenser could be kept from imposing an intolerable drag penalty on the airplane.

Optimum speed for steam compressor jet aircraft is around Mach 0.9 at 30,000-40,000 ft crusing altitude. That is even slightly faster than Boeing 747 speed.
Net energy efficiency of such aircraft is around 20% , which is equal or slightly higher than efficiency of Boeing 707. Weight of the steam engine with boiler and water is 2-3 times higher than weight of the gas turbine engine.

.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2019 05:21PM by novice.


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
July 09, 2019 11:49AM
Hi Novice,
I enjoyed the videos and associated information! That little helicopter was awesome!

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
July 17, 2019 05:18AM
Hi Novice,
Need your help? BTW, I thoroughly enjoy this thread smiling smiley

So I have a question, has there been any development of a value for a Boiler HP rating based on square feet (any unit will work)? So I'm sure you know the equation.

Conduction: Q=kA Delta T

Also consider an element, a mono tube in this quest. So here is the challenge, this is the heat transfer to water. I have attached the thermal conductivity of water and steam. This leads to the determination of a boundary layer that gets turned to steam and is replaced with water...theory that I've been thinking about.

Here is some information, similar to what I'm looking for, that I gathered from another steam guy whom I have great respect. This given a wood fire and typically a boat type boiler:
1) Fire Tube Boiler - 10 Sq Ft / BHP
2) Water Tube Boiler - 5 Sq Ft / BHP
3) Mono Tube Boiler - 2 Sq Ft / BHP

I would like to use number 3 value in the case of my Ofeldt boiler considering the operating temperatures. When I apply this, I get ~ 6 BHP. Boiler picture attached. Note that this is not a Mono Tube Boiler and would be considered a Water Tube Boiler. The value is and result is suitable to my needs in the intended Car I'm building. However, not substantiated.

Other considerations come into play like flow rate, turbulence and materials used. As far as materials and in order to create an effective boiler system, I'm leaning toward SS tube sizes 1/4, 3/8 & 1/2. The assumption is that the SS would provide instantaneous heat to the water. Again back to the boundary layer theory.

Again, looking for a rating, Sq Ft / BHP of mono tube(s)? Don't hesitate to ask questions.

Kind regards,
Rick


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
July 18, 2019 06:25PM
Here is a study of the monotube boilers parameters optimization:

[ntrs.nasa.gov]. - CONDENSERS AND BOILERS FOR STEAM-POWERED CARS: A PARAMETRIC ANALYSIS OF THEIR SIZE, WEIGHT, AND REQUIRED FAN POWER.


Low emission combustor/vapor generator for Rankine automotive engines

[nepis.epa.gov]



Vapor generator feed pump for Rankine cycle automotive propulsion system
[nepis.epa.gov]

Steam car monotube boiler control system

[nepis.epa.gov]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2019 06:31PM by novice.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
July 18, 2019 06:42PM
Idea of using closed vapor cycle for aircraft propulsion is not completely useless. It is great technical challenge and no one built any working steam aircraft since famous 1933 Besler's flight. Not because it is impossible, but because it was not as good for practical applications as other types of engines.

Replica of Besler's steam engine aircraft can be a great project.
It can be made significantly lighter and with much better steam condenser, using modern materials and computer engineering software.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2019 06:49PM by novice.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
July 23, 2019 11:47AM
Reading and thinking...I'll get back to you.

Preliminary on the first paper by NASA, I think to represent mono-tube with efficiency is a good way to look at the question I asked.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 07, 2019 06:42PM
Steam turboprop design drawings and calculation.
Flight speed 200-500 mph, altitude 15000-30000ft.


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 21, 2019 12:30PM
Hi Novice,
I wanted to get back to you regarding a calculation or a way to come up with a power rating per a length of tubing. As a start, I'm playing with the Heat Transfer Equation:

Q = MC Delta T
m=mass
c=coefficient of heat transfer of the material
T=temperature

Important to note that one needs to work in water volume and convert to water mass, i.e 1 Ft**3 = 62.4 lbs.

If you remember I mentioned about using efficiency to explain the different values mentioned for square feet related to BHP.

"Here is some information, similar to what I'm looking for, that I gathered from another steam guy whom I have great respect. This given a wood fire and typically a boat type boiler:
1) Fire Tube Boiler - 10 Sq Ft / BHP
2) Water Tube Boiler - 5 Sq Ft / BHP
3) Mono Tube Boiler - 2 Sq Ft / BHP "

The concept is to utilize a Boundary Layer (BL) inside a generating tube/vessel that would very quickly rise to the Q steady state. At this point I would make an assumption on the thickness of this layer. Then calculate the Q for a given length of tubing. This can be converted to a BHP and then on to a mechanical HP. The given length such as 10 ft of tubing can be the standard for Boiler Design. If you want 20 HP, just divide the standard for that tubing into the desired HP. Wala, you have the number of 10 ft lengths needed in your boiler design.

When the volume inside the tube is not covered by BL, I'll just call it Ballance of Volume (BOV). The efficiency will look like:

n = V bl / (V bov + V bl)

OK...not so simple. One needs to apply the efficiency to the HP rating to get the real rating for the length of tubing.

More to come...

Kind regards,
Rick
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 27, 2019 06:59PM
There is a lot of factors working against us to generating steam such as Cv goes down as temperature goes up and water density reacts the same. These things makes it harder to design for and plan to make steam.

I sketched out what might help a mono-tube generator be a little more efficient. With this concept I can provide evidence that when you add fill to a tube, it will generate steam faster or in a shorter tube length.


Attachments:
open | download - 2019 Fall SACA Presentation.xlsx (11.2 KB)
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
November 16, 2019 01:45PM
Steam turbine aircraft designed by Romanian inventor Traian Vuia in late 1930s - 55 pages with drawings and calculations:
[biblacad.ro]
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 16, 2020 02:55PM
Liquid metals(molten sodium, potassium and mercury) and high boiling temperature organic liquids were also studied for closed Rankine cycle aerial vehicles propulsion.

[archive.org]

A study of various advanced powerplants for a large helicopter:
Closed Brayton cycle gas turbine (heavy oil fuel, coal, boron, metals)
Potassium metal closed Rankine cycle (heavy oil fuel, coal, boron, metals)
Mercury closed Rankine cycle (heavy oil fuel, coal, boron, metals)
Organic Rankine cycle (heavy oil fuel, coal, boron, metals)
Recuperated intercooled turboshaft turbine
Fuel cell electric drive (hydrogen, jet fuel)
Magnetohydrodynamic electric drive (jet fuel, heavy oil, hydrogen)
Thermionic electric drive (heavy oil, solid fuel)
Fission energy powered cycle turbines (Rankine and Brayton.
Calculations were made for 500, 1500 and 10000 hp powerplants. Each helicopter has 2 such powerplants.
Potassium metal Rankine helicopter 2x10000hp powerplant with all fuel aboard(25,000 lbs) is about 85,000 lbs with 1969s technology and 45,000 lbs (fuel-20,000 lbs) with 2020 technology. Efficiency is around 30%.
Mercury poweplant is 5 times heavier , occupies 9 times larger volume and has only 15% efficiency.
Cost is high due to use of molybdenum and tantalum alloys. Turbine seals leak is very serious problem for this power plant, especially for molten potassium.
Organic Rankine cycle has about the same weight and efficiency as potassium powerplant, but requires 3.5 times larger volume.
Water steam powerplant was not studied but is probably could have parameters close to mercury powerplant or worse.


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 17, 2020 10:56PM
Rick.H Wrote:

> Another thing is to get to super critical (SC)
> steam. The pictures posted above, from my
> experience, won't produce SC steam. I'm
> thinking...the way to SC is to have a secondary
> boiler or 2nd stage boiler that takes boiler water
> and pumps it up to 3,000 PSI along with a super
> heat to 700 F. Any diagrams or information on
> going SC?

My boiler does exactly that.
The compressor (on the right) pressurizes the container to 3500psi...and keeps it pressurized.
The tubes inside are electric heating elements.... heats everything to 1000F *after* it is pressurized.
Voila! SC Steam. Total energy spent = about 1400btu/lb
It was designed for a USC Coal powerplant, (USC Steam Turbine), and the very next day Greta showed up and ruined everything.


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 18, 2020 12:10PM
Kyle,
You're toying with my dreams smiling smiley

I'm curious to know if USC Coal power plant was to use the SC Steam through their steam turbine? I know there are bucket blade coatings that can handle it...worked short stint at Chromalloy NY. One of the common coatings is chrome...makes sense.

Chromalloy NY Website

It don't know if I ever said this story about being an Engineer at Teledyne CAE and working in the Altitude Test Chamber. Anyways, point is that I would walk by the 1,000 psi compresser every day entering into the test chamber(s) and the tank that showed a pressure gage at 1,000 psi. That's allot of pressure. Then to image what a compressor would look like to go SC or > 3,000 psi, not sure what that is or would look like? Some points to consider are going from a 120 psi machine to a 1,000 psi, the size is the same, wall thickness is 3X, pipe size is 1/3X sch 80, motor is 3X, 2X stages compound; all the sizes relationships. It looks like a compressor on steroids. Not that the compressor had to run all night to get to 1,000 psi.

All designs look good on paper. Any test results from a prototype? Was one built?

Cheers,
Rick
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 19, 2020 01:27PM
Rick.H Wrote:

>
> I'm curious to know if USC Coal power plant was to
> use the SC Steam through their steam turbine?

Yes it was designed to work directly with the SC steam turbine, and from there it would be the usual reheat and send to the IP and LP turbines.

>
> It don't know if I ever said this story about
> being an Engineer at Teledyne CAE

Teledyne would have been a dream job for me! Heard a lot about them back in the day.


> All designs look good on paper. Any test results
> from a prototype? Was one built?

Yes I built a couple. In the pictures, the 4000-psi compressor is on the right and the 3kW induction heater is on the left.

Two things happened: My parents both died, and I ran out of (everything, time, money, ability) so that's as far as I got.

It is easy making SC Steam (fluid) in an enclosed tank. The HARD part is using it, because everything downstream of the tank (pipes, fittings, expanders, etc) have to be able to tolerate SC pressure and temp.

-Kyle





Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 19, 2020 07:39PM
I used to operate, and repair, 5,000 psi Ingersoll-Rand N-20D, 6-stage air compressors in the Navy. The defining characteristic is heat exchangers. There were 5 intercoolers, an aftercooler, a frame cooler and an oil cooler. That's a whole lot of waste heat being dissipated.

Ken
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
August 19, 2020 10:10PM
Some of the water jet washers have working pressure of 5000 psi or higher. At high water temperatures 1000-1500F the piping and steam turbine have to be made from a high strength high temperature nickel chromium steel alloy.
In early 1950s there was a concept of a jet aircraft with the two 49000 hp supercritical 5000psi/1000F steam turbines driving two ducted fans that were pushing compressed air through steam condensers to jet nozzles. It was not built, but in theory could reach speed of 600 mph at 45000 ft and 700 mph at sea level. The water was absorbing 410000 kW of thermal energy in a steel sphere with diameter of just 2.5 feet. Total diameter was 11 feet with the protective lead shield.

[steamautomobile.com]
[steamautomobile.com]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2020 10:31PM by novice.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
September 23, 2020 05:10PM
Steam turbine assisted aircraft turbojet engines patents:

GB2334556A United Kingdom
Turbojet with steam turbine

[patentimages.storage.googleapis.com]


Abstract
The Thermo Induction Turbojet operates by drawing in air and compressing it in an axial flow compressor 1. Front here it is passed into combustion chamber 6 where it is mixed with fuel from nozzles 5 and burnt. The rapidly expanding hot gases pass around convoluted water tube 10 and over encased steam turbine 3, exiting through jet nozzle 12. Water supplied from pump 8 is force circulated through water tube 10. This cools the combustion chamber and produces high pressure steam. The steam is fed via nozzles 11 to steam turbine 3, thus rapidly rotating it, the connecting shaft 2 and compressor 1. Exhausted steam exits the turbine via ducts 13 and manifold 14. From here it travels via pipe 15 to a suitable condenser in the front of the engine. Condensed water is recirculated via pump 8.


Working model of this engine was built by inventor.

[youtu.be]




US4333309A United States
Steam assisted gas turbine engine

[patentimages.storage.googleapis.com]

Abstract
A gas turbine engine is disclosed which has an integral steam power system consisting of heat absorbing boilers which convert an unpressurized liquid into an expanded and heated steam by utilizing heat normally lost through component cooling systems and the exhaust system. Upon completion of the steam power cycle, the steam is condensed back to a liquid state through a condensing system located within the compressor and other functional components of the gas turbine engine. A system of high pressure air and friction seals restrict steam or liquid condensate within designed flow bounds. The gas turbine engine disclosed is designed to give improved fuel efficiency and economy for aircraft and land use applications.






US2159758A United States

Power plant - steam assisted aircraft powerplant

[patentimages.storage.googleapis.com]



US6786036B2 United States


Bimodal fan, heat exchanger and bypass air supercharging for piston or rotary driven turbine

[patentimages.storage.googleapis.com]

Abstract
The present invention relates to turbine fan aircraft use. In particular, the present invention is directed toward a turbine fan driven by a piston or rotary (e.g., Wankel) engine. The present invention makes possible the most flexible and effective installation of a ducted fan with a fixed horsepower source, namely a conventional internal combustion engine. Effectiveness being defined as full utilization of the engine's available horsepower at the chosen flight points. In a further embodiment of the present invention, a novel heat exchanger may be provided which removes waste heat with minimal drag while boosting the fan system's effective thermal efficiency by increasing the enthalpy of the working fluid. In yet another embodiment of the present invention, bypass air from the turbine may be used to supercharge the piston or rotary engine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2020 05:31PM by novice.


Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
September 28, 2020 07:01AM
Wondering if ever a pulse jet combined with a steam turbine? To me this could be a good concept.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
September 28, 2020 09:01AM
Rick
Did you ever hear a Pulse jet run. It’s deafening. 65 years ago my brother and I built a five-foot long Pulse Jet engine. It had eight reed valves, and a three inch exhaust tube.
Lots of heat, the whole thing turned cherry red before it ran out of fuel.
You could not stand next to it or at least we could not.

Rolly
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
September 28, 2020 01:40PM
Pulse burning encreases heat transfer rate, such boiler could be more compact and tubing could probably to some extent to silence that terrible noise of the pulse jet... but who knows to what level...

Serge
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
September 28, 2020 01:48PM
Rolly,
Can't say that I have. I've been up close and personal with the F107 Cruise Missile turbo-fan engine, the Harpoon Turbo jet and the stealth cruise missile turbo-fan engine (Teledyne's version). Also, some small decoy birds (Tacid Rainbow), turbo jets where we're talking like 40 to 80 lbs thrust. All limited exposure and it probably didn't help to be enclosed in concrete test cells. We would use ear protection if prolonged.

I bet your Pulse Jet was louder...not by much. Neat that you did that/built that!

I just saw a documentary on Tesla who invented the flow check valve. I understand the application might be in the Pulse Jet.

Kind regards,
Rick



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2020 07:55AM by Rick.H.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
September 28, 2020 03:08PM
Rick
I use to set the throttle setting on the J33 jet engines used in some of our cruse missiles when I was at Cape Canaveral in 1959-60
We used ear protection, nothing like my pulse jet. But that’s not to say some pulse jets may run with less nose or a different frequency.
I’m use to steam plants making very little nose.

Rolly
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
September 29, 2020 07:56AM
Me too...love the sound of Steam.
Re: Steam turbine driven turbojet
October 01, 2020 04:28PM
German patent of early 1920s for a high speed propeller 1000 hp
steam turbine airboat with the air cooled steam condenser (Luftkondensation bei dampfbetriebenen Schnellbooten)

[worldwide.espacenet.com]


1928 Steam powered vertical takeoff helicopter/drone.
[worldwide.espacenet.com]


High speed locomotive driven by a propeller steam turbine powerplant with the air cooled steam condenser:
[worldwide.espacenet.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2020 04:49PM by novice.


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