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Steam Powered Mini Bike

Posted by Arch-Tone 
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 03, 2018 09:59AM
Well, let's get a clutch and a chain mounted up and get er' in the wind smiling smiley

Seems to run pretty well.

-Ron
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 03, 2018 12:03PM
Ron,

Sounds like a planthumbs up. I still need to make another hand or foot operated pump to get the pressure up when starting....mount portable propane tank(s), insulate the furnace from the seat area and install a thermally isolated seat. It seems like a lot of work, but it shouldn’t take too long and could have it ready by the weekend for a test run smiling smiley.

Jamison
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 03, 2018 12:03PM
Awesome Dude!!

Looking forward to the test ride!
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 04, 2018 02:17AM
Jamison,

The spring pump I talked about and which was really made has lever for unloading plunger off the side thrust from the eccentric and along with this this lever can serve for manual operating the pump. Just information for consideration. May be it helps.

Serge


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 04, 2018 08:35AM
Quote: "this lever can serve for manual operating the pump"

At that volume per stroke 3/8" x 3/4" it would not be very effective at moving any significant amount of water in a reasonable amount of time.

Most manual feedpumps are too small for the plant. On the Tugboat, the engine is a 3+3X4 high pressure twin. The Pearl-type manual feedpump is 1" bore X 2" stroke, pretty big by comparison to other boats. It's way too small for emergency service. As a test one day, I tried to see if I could keep up with the boiler under way, I gave that up in about 5 minutes, I couldn't pump fast enough to keep up with it. My last calculations and if memory serves me correct, the tug requires about 30 gallons of feedwater per hour, a boat power plant is under continual load, no coasting.

-Ron
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 04, 2018 09:25AM
Hi, Ron

You are correct about manual pumping under the way, for a such case of emergency little and quick mechanical pump won't suffice, but Jamison talked about starting procedure, primarily filling the boiler. And for this service manual operating of the main pump can maybe successful. Though that depends on the volume You need to pump to begin firing. If it is one half of a gallon, making one and a half thousand of strokes by hand would be of course little boring... May be really better to have bigger pump for this service. Though at the start You have no pressure in the boiler...

Serge
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 04, 2018 11:39AM
Serge, Ron,

I could have a hand crank driving a separate eccentric with a geared up ratio. It would mimic what the engine does with the pump and has the extra plus of being able to manually adjust the stroke when the engine is driving the pump. The manually operated eccentric can be set to hold down the rocker arm at different lengths....thus shortening the stroke of the pump when engine driven. In other words...if you want the pump to use a full stroke, you would have to leave the manually operated eccentric out of the way, with the fat part facing up. The same goes the other way around....the engine eccentric would have to be out of the way for the manually operated eccentric to work.

Update on the mini bike progress...ran it with a full propane tank yesterday and she was able to sustain a steady flow of steam, like before, but with higher pressure and engine speed. Built a manually operated feed pump to build up pressure at start up. Had a few problems with the flow controller bypass being stuck open, but it reset itself after pressure was built up. I had to install a small needle valve inline with the bypass output to close it off until it started working again. I think I will leave the valve there...it seemed to factor in with the flow control logic and added another level of tweakability. The burner mounts started warping and now it is off center. Will have to remount it with heavier gauge stainless for stability. Made a video of the new test, but it is pretty much the same as the other video...just with the engine working at higher RPMs.

I added a hand cranked eccentric to your drawing, Serge...to help illustrate what I’m talking about:

Jamison


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 04, 2018 11:56AM
Hi Serge,
Actually, the idea would work provided the lever-pump rod were disassociated with the cam. In essence, increase the travel to provide more volume. There would need to be some innovation on the mechanics. However, still a good idea!

In review of Jamison's pump set up, he would have a lot of pump changes to accomplish the concept. Although, Jamison is a crafty bugger!drinking smiley He came up with that wonderful pump lever concept off his cam.

There is another event worth mentioning in these small bikes. The boiler or pressure vessels refill quickly after you have been running full burner. The cooling boiler/vessel thermo syphon's back into it's self quite rapidly, within a couple of minutes. He may not have to have an external or supplementary pump at all. Note that I don't have an external/supplementary pump on my Scooter.

I'm starting Scooter updates this week with the Spring temperatures rising to a reasonable level. Jamison and I still have a challenge to run at the Spring Meet at Berrien Springs, May 19-20. I invite all to watch and see? I think Tony is running his Bike also. I challenge all steam bike/scooter builders to attend. By the way, only encouragement is aloud.

Kind regards,
Rick H.
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 05, 2018 02:12AM
Jamison, Rick

First we should determine for what we need that additional manual pump? If just for starting the boiler and filling it with water for it, then thermo siphoning which Rick proposed is the best way to do. You open vent to atmosphere and turn on the burner for a few seconds then close vent and burner simultaneously and wacuum sucks water in. If it is at least already some water in the boiler (and it is) sucking will be more efficient.
If to replace main pump in the case of emergency like Ron said... when You stay and grab the helm with one hand You have second hand free to pump...But on the such a little vehicle like mini-bike to do this would be some awkward. If You had pedals...

Serge
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 05, 2018 08:24AM
Starting the boiler:

Once the system is more finalized, this becomes a non-issue. As long as there is water in the day tank and the bypass is closed, every time the system is shut down the vacuum will automatically fill the boiler 100% full ready for the next run. I have a manual pump on the Locomobile and it only gets used if I drain the boiler for some reason, it's fine to store a steel boiler completely full of water for short periods.

-Ron
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 07, 2018 02:49AM
Hi Jamison,

Well, my adjustable valve stops might be the mother of all screw-ups for all I know at this point. We'll see when/if/how it actually works. I suspect that I am far from alone here in being influenced by steam Jedi Master Tony G's "ya don't know till ya build and test it" philosophy. I had some very interesting discussions with him at the 2005 Berrien Springs meet. In this case I also add a bit of Pat/Rolly and other philosophy regarding pump check valve adjustments & experiments. It seems the "successful steam guy" thing to do. Then there's the "design strictly to theory" approach. Commenting on any approach seems to risk "being discouraging", and basically I just want to build something that works well, without discouraging anyone with a different approach, so "what do you do. What do you do". Well, Jim Crank and some others suggested just shutting the eff up, which I have to admit has advantages. Anyway, your sealant/thread-lock approach seems to do the job, and that's good. My current plan is to put a plastic ball onto a bit of shaft stock, chuck it in the drill press with some grinding compound, and use that to round-off the edge between conical valve seat face and valve seat bore, so's the valve ball don't get chewed by a sharp edge. 303 SS valve seat, Delrin valve ball, and this approach, may give good results. Won't know till I try it, of course. The design is modular, so many materials etc can be tried. Worst case looks like change balls every few thousand miles, perhaps -- like swapping out ignition points etc in an old gas car engine. I bought a 50-pack of the balls from McMaster, and in this quantity they're "cheap as old chips", in British parlance. Cheaper & easier to swap out than ignition points, condenser, etc in Old VW engines, which are already dirt cheap/easy-swap at about the same interval. Making every single darn thing in the car last 1,000,000 miles can be done later, if ever. smiling smiley

Anyway, I'm personally shooting for the Old Classic Steam Car ideal of smooth, silent, simple, infinitely-easily-variable torque/speed steam power, but that doesn't stop me from admiring new/different/untried approaches to converting IC engines to steam -- or "building steam engines like IC engines". In fact I find those really cool and fascinating, when it's build/test and not just theory. I used to be "Mister Bad Vibes" on the theoretical arguments for such engines, but that was because of the many failed experiments of the past, and the lack of successful new build/test projects. In your project, and some other new projects, I see a different approach, and surprising promise. The "R.L. Stine Twist" is the similarity to RJ Smith's often-dismissed ideas on steam engine lubrication/protection.

Peter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2018 02:55AM by Peter Brow.
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 07, 2018 03:37AM
At the risk of "being discouraging", it occurs to me that in many/most steam car systems the boiler stays at a starting pressure when shut down overnight. Thus there is no "siphoning full". Of course this depends on the metal/water mass and insulation of the boiler. The small minibike steam power systems discussed in this thread seem to have very little of those. For automobilish systems, I have considered a gravity boiler refill for cold-starts, A small tank above the boiler, kept full while running by bypass water from the feedwater control, overflowing into main water tank when full, drains down into the boiler when a valve is opened. An alternative idea is a vacuum tank which has atmospheric-pressure engine exhaust steam flowing through it while running, and which is closed off when parked. Steam then condenses in this un-insulated vacuum tank, developing a vacuum which pulls water into boiler when the valves change to "boiler refill" mode. This requires a number of valves and controls. Either approach could be fully automated, with relatively simple mechanisms, and pumpless.

Another idea which I have considered for refilling a cold unpressurized boiler before fireup, is a big-bore manual piston pump. Since it pumps against nearly zero pressure, and with only a few inches of water head/lift, it could be sized to entirely fill a small light steam vehicle boiler with only a few pulls on a hand-lever. The pump cylinder could be tubing with sheet-metal thin walls, and the pump rod could be small-diameter, with a sheet-metal "piston" fitted with off the shelf cup seals. Flexible sheetmetal or elastomer-sheet flap-valves, or big nylon ball check valves, could provide all the check valving needed.
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 07, 2018 10:01AM
"the boiler stays at a starting pressure when shut down overnight. "

If I'm understanding correctly, It would have to be thermally insulated to a high degree, or have heat applied from a standing pilot to maintain boiler pressure all night. Steam Temperature and pressure are like two meshed gears with equal numbers of teeth, whatever one does, the other follows.

-Ron
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 08, 2018 02:45AM
Hi Ron,

You are absolutely correct; typically 1 inch or so thickness of asbestos or ceramic-fiber [Fiberfrax, Kaowool, etc] boiler insulation. Rev. Stanley "Steamer" Ellis reported "enough steam to start with the next day" with the Doble-boilered [/Stanley-engined] Keen Steamliner #1, which he owned and daily-drove for many years, and Ted Pritchard and other steam car guys have reported similar results -- with monotube boilers lacking standing pilot lights. See Ellis' book "Smogless Days" for more details. I saw & extensively explored/inspected the Keen Steamliner #1 first-hand in 2005, in the huge and mind-blowingly fascinating collection of SCCGB chief Jeff Theobald. Jeff was a true "prince of steam", and I still miss him, though I was only acquainted with him for a few years. Ellis states in his book that his many years of driving experience with the Keen Steamliner #1 convinced him that a practical and fully-convenient daily-driver modern steam car was easily possible. Used copies of his wonderfully informative and delightful "steam car classic" book are available at low cost from Amazon.com, eBay, etc.. "Smogless Days", by Rev. Stanley Ellis.

Amazing things are possible with light steam power.

Peter
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 08, 2018 09:30PM
Peter,

“steam Jedi Master Tony G”....too funny. Ok....so I had a little photoshop fun with that...


May the forced circulation be with you....


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 09, 2018 12:13AM
LOL! If this were a Monty Python sketch, right about now is where "Colonel Chapman" would show up and declare the whole thing "silly".

[www.youtube.com]
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 09, 2018 02:25AM
Peter,

“Right. That post was too silly” is what the colonel would say. Ok....back on topic...

Well....I decided that the system is solid enough to start making stuff more road worthy. I have pulled the boiler assembly and remounted the burner with heavier gauge brackets. Working on a new 3 bottle propane manifold that will be mounted securely on the front of the frame. Drums will be insulated with cotton twine soaked in high temp paint...thanks to Ron for the idea...and covered with a shell of thin walled exhaust pipe that will be mounted to the frame with heavy duty, road worthy straps.

I’ve had an ongoing concern about the back heaviness of the bike. I was hoping it would balance out better with a water tank and fuel towards the front....but I don’t think it would be sufficient and the idea of flipping backwards onto the boiler is a serious safety concern. I had to come up with a way to shift the center of gravity, without adding “ballast” weight, a silly wheelie bar or having to sit on the handlebars....


So.....I made it a chopper.


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 09, 2018 08:27AM
That is really funny smiling smiley I sent that to him, he'll get a kick out of it

Fatbob those front forks and use them for water storage!

Quote: "Working on a new 3 bottle propane manifold that will be mounted securely on the front of the frame. Drums will be insulated with cotton twine soaked in high temp paint...thanks to Ron for the idea...and covered with a shell of thin walled exhaust pipe that will be mounted to the frame with heavy duty, road worthy straps.

Nahh, you don't want to insulate those. Think of propane LPG as water making steam and outside ambient temperature as the fire. Water boils at 212 F and propane boils at -42 F. We've discussed this before, but heating the LPG cylinders is very dangerous.

If Anything, you want to put fins on the LP tanks to increase the heat transfer to air.

Quote: "Rev. Stanley "Steamer" Ellis reported "enough steam to start with the next day" with the Doble-boilered [/Stanley-engined] Keen Steamliner #1"

I'm not from Missouri, but I'd have to see this to believe it. I think you may have gotten some weak intel smiling smiley Just the draft moving through the boiler, will cool it down in a short period, and a monotube with very low volume, and very little mass, and air moving over the coil, isn't going to maintain above 212 degrees for 12 hours etc.. She heats up quick and she cools down quick, can't have it two different ways.


-Ron



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2018 08:34AM by IronChief.
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 09, 2018 09:10AM
Ron,

The drums I was referring to are the steam drums for the generator....not the propane bottles. Definitely wouldn’t want to insulate those. The new chopper forks are made out of the same 2” pipe stock that the generator drums use. I was originally going to use the forks to store fuel...but I think having liquid in there could create some handling issues, as the fuel or water sloshes around in there. The weight of the forks is sufficient on their own, and making it a chopper opened up more room in the front of the frame to install stuff.

I talked to Tony-Wan Kenobi...I mean Tony G...about the chopper idea for better weight distribution. He said that chopper bikes have an issue with increased turning radius. I did a test run...so to speak...on the bikes handling by riding it down my 45 deg incline driveway. It has the turning radius of a Mack truck....steam Jedi master was right. The thing is...I’m not going to be riding it in urban traffic any time soon, and it just looks too cool for me to change it cool smiley.

Ok...I will admit that the chopper idea wasn’t just about weight distribution and functionality. The angled lines of the mounted steam drums and protruding furnace already give it a “swept” look...I always thought that it looked awkward with such a stubby front end. I haven’t reinstalled the steam generator assembly yet....but it should appear to be more balanced and appealing to the eye. Call me vain...it’s ok. Function before form, as they say. I do understand that if it doesn’t work...it’s just a pretty piece of steampunk sculpture on wheels and who cares.

Keeping with the chopper tradition...it will have a “sissy bar” installed. Not because I’m a sissy...but for the practical reason of keeping me from falling back onto the hot furnace shell....ok.....plus it looks cool, too.

More updates / pictures / video to follow soon.

Jamison
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 09, 2018 10:38AM
Oh ok the steam drums.

I sent that to Tony, he got a good laugh out of it.

-Ron
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 10, 2018 01:25AM
Hi Ron,

I just checked Ellis's book, and couldn't find the story about the monotube boiler which stayed hot enough overnite to start up the next day. Either it was another source, maybe another owner of the Keen car, or the story might have been about a different car. I seem to recall that it involved a heavy Doble-style monotube, with hundreds of pounds of hot steel tubing in a well-insulated case, and that the pressure the next day was very low, but enough to start driving on, with the burner and pumps kicking in, and boosting it to full operating pressure, before it ran out of steam. I am hoping that my mental Mixmaster hasn't confused Doble stories with reports on Stanleys parked with the pilot burning overnight...

One humorous bit I did find in Ellis, page 79:

"When you bought a new Doble, assuming you ever could, the control box was strictly verboten. Never touch it. Never, never. If you do so your factory guarantee expired and Mr. Doble would never speak to you again. Leave it alone."

smiling smiley

Peter
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 10, 2018 02:14AM
Hi Jamison,

Tony Wan Kenobi, LOL! Yeah, keep on like that and the Monty Python Colonel will appear any minute now. smiling smiley My expert technical engineering analysis of your chopper fork is that it looks totally badass. smiling smiley Hey, it's a fun vehicle, go for it. How about some ape hanger handlebars with tassels, and don't forget the '70s metal-flake-vinyl banana seat! When I moved into this house, among other weird things I found that the previous owners had left behind, was a rusty 1970s "chopper style" low-rider bicycle with the longest craziest front fork and ape-hanger handlebars I have ever seen. I hung it on the wall inside the garage, and every single person who has seen it has commented favorably on the wacky thing. This brings to mind how I spent a lot of years drawing conservative-looking steam cars, in an effort to "make a respectable modern steam car that looks like a regular car". The response: yawns. But when I started sketching T-bucket-based hot-rod body concepts a couple years ago, having in mind "not what I'd prefer but just build a cheap platform to road-test steam car powerplants", every darn comment was "wow, totally cool car!". Then I recalled a few car shows where I had seen people walk right past the latest and supposedly most-desirable $250,000-plus modern exotic sports and luxury cars, barely glancing at them, to cluster around and gawk at hot rods and 1920s/earlier antique cars parked nearby. And the rods & 'tiques are vastly cheaper and easier to design/build. Takes a while, but eventually "what people really like" even busts thru my thick skull, and I catch the fun bug too. The moral of the story, I suppose, is get jiggy with it and make fun vehicles. I think us tech/gear-head types need that.

Peter
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 10, 2018 03:55AM
20 years ago while taking an adventurous 9000 mile trip across the US from New York to California and back in my 1925 French Salmson sports car we were heading for the Henry Ford museum and got into what looked like a pretty dodgy part of Detroit - a bit scary we thought - wrong - it's Motor City and the inhabitants loved the car, several times calling out "Cool Car". Throughout the trip there was huge interest in the car and a couple of times, when held up at road works the traffic controller asked us about the car as the truckers were all discussing it on CB. A great trip.

Mike
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 12, 2018 11:39PM
Peter,

Ape hangers might be in order...but tassels are a bit too much, for my taste. I’m having to restrain myself from getting too caught up in aesthetics at this point, even though I’ve got some great ideas for dressin’ her up. I can hear steam Jedi master Tony’s voice echoing in my head “get ‘er working first....THEN do the extra stuff”.....

Mike,

Across the country and back in a 1925 automobile....remarkable. That must of been an amazing experience with lots of great memories. I like when vintage car owners aren’t afraid to take their vehicles on a road trip instead of keeping them locked up in a garage. They were designed and built to be driven and enjoyed.



Update on mini chopper...reinstalled the boiler with furnace insulation around the front of the shell. Painted one of the steam drums with high temp paint and then wrapped it with cotton twine, for insulation, while it was still wet. Then I painted over the twine until it was saturated. After drying overnight...I installed the flexible exhaust pipe shell over the drum and reinstalled the fittings. Then I welded a mounting channel on the side of the bike and fit the drum in place. The mounting straps will be installed across the channel to secure them. Will do the same with the other drum. I must admit it looks pretty good, too....even though the insulation on the furnace shell is not completely covered yet. I bought some galvanized sheet that will cover it in the back section. Here are some pictures of the progress:


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 13, 2018 02:19AM
Jamison!

Beg You, weld two curved tubes onto the frame beyond the rear wheel, or shift the wheel back 15". Your mustang wants to capsize!


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 13, 2018 10:54AM
Serge,

Are you concerned that the acceleration will be sufficient to reduce the load borne by the front axle to zero?....otherwise known as “wheelie back flip”? The main reason (besides the cool factor) I made this thing a chopper was to shift the center of gravity forward....to prevent that from happening. Those front forks are about 2 feet long each, made of rather heavy 2” schedule 40 pipe. The rider sits just in front of the rear axle ...same spot as some full size choppers....so the wheels position should not be an issue. The heavy pipe forks balance the bike out fairly well, it should not wheelie...unless I want it too smiling smiley. I hope I am understanding correctly what you meant by “capsize”. I do like the idea of some kind of back bumper-like safety guard, so the boiler assembly is better protected overall. Maybe something like this:


Jamison



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2018 11:02AM by Arch-Tone.


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 13, 2018 11:52AM
Jamison

You got it right. May be You will start slowly and everything will be fine, but... Who knows, may be You will want to outrun Rick and will start too sharply... I would not like You got new sertificate this way.

Serge
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 14, 2018 02:33AM
To back up Mike, any unusual/cool road vehicle is an attention-getter and a joy to drive. In 2003 I did an "Easy Rider" style San Diego to New Orleans Mardi Gras & back road trip in an old-hippie buddy's rare/first-year 1965 Plymouth Barracuda. Every gas/food/carwash stop was "instant celebrity" time. I have had the same thing with my 1969 VW Beetle, even on short trips to grocery store and back. When I bought "Beetle" in the late 1970s it was a cheap old incognito junk car, millions everywhere on the road. Fast forward a few decades, and it's a standout rare/celebrity car.

Peter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2018 06:53PM by Peter Brow.
Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 15, 2018 12:54PM
The steam mini chopper is almost complete. Mounted the other drum, installed the outer furnace shell, plumbed everything together and made a 3 bottle propane manifold. Was going to install a chain, mount the propane manifold and do a test run today....but it is raining here so it will have to wait. Here are pictures of the almost completed bike and propane manifold:

Jamison


Re: Steam Powered Mini Bike
April 15, 2018 04:47PM
Jamison,

Looks good, has a real finished look to it. Like the three tank manifold, that gives new meaning for the term "tri-power" ! smiling smiley

-Ron
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