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Radiant Heat Burners

Posted by zimirken 
Radiant Heat Burners
October 02, 2017 02:08PM
I was thinking about radiant heat burners. I was there for the talk about them at the meet, but I don't remember what actually sparked my interest in possibly using one in my boiler. I've done some research on them, but the information available online is uniquely sparse. However all the information about them seems to point to them being able to deliver heat very effectively.

This is probably the most applicable information source I could find.
These tiny steam trains (I'm assuming) have a little firetube boiler with one tube that the burner is inserted into. They report that their runtime on a given mass of fuel doubled and the flue gas went from very hot to lukewarm with only the addition of a stainless steel wire mesh enclosing the flame.

The dollar store was a good source of some stainless steel wire mesh in the form of pan splatter covers, and some stainless steel scrubbing pads to experiment with on the cheap. I plan on doing some experimenting with these on my camp stove burner. Including seeing what happens when I try to put some of the stainless scrubbing pads in the burning area to see if the burn takes place inside the stainless pad similar to a ceramic burner.

Also, I looked up some data on emissivity for various things and found some interesting stuff. Rough stainless steel is at most 0.85. Copper is generally below 0.1, but can reach some 0.35 if fully oxidized to black. However, soot is 0.95-0.98! A small layer of soot may be beneficial on copper coils if doing any sort of radiant heating. Carbon is also a good physical heat conductor, so it should be able to transfer heat to the coils through conduction fairly well. A low emissivity makes a good infrared reflector however, which would be good for everything that isn't the stainless emitter and the boiler coils.

I'm not really sure how to do experiments with this. Possibly either pot of water boiling time which would be faster and easier, or actually placing my boiler coils on the radiant part of the burner and seeing how long it takes to boil out a gallon of water.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 02, 2017 03:37PM
Try a Google search for "high emissivity paint" or "high emissivity coatings". These are available now, used to increase emissivity with blue-flame burners which are preferred because of their lower pollution. One website had photos of heat-exchanger tubes coated with the jet-black stuff. One issue might be [?] heat transfer through the coating to the tube underneath.

There are also high-intensity "flameless" burners, which use no flameholder or matrix. Spectacular combustion densities. Mind-boggling stuff.

Some stainless alloys will soften, deform, and even oxidize in high temperature environments with excess-O2/clean fires. 316, 321, and higher alloy numbers, like the 400 series, seem to be preferred for high temperature use. 309 is an interesting alloy; available as foil to wrap metal parts for high-temperature heat treatment.

I have read references to soot on tubes being bad for convective heat exchange.

Hiram Maxwell's 400psi aeronautical boiler, with rapid-circulation copper tubes and blue-flame gasoline vaporizing burner, evaporated up to 11.5 lbs/hr per square foot of tube surface. That average included his all-convective steel-tubed feedwater heater/economizer [1/4" OD tubes of 1/60" wall thickness]. Boilers without economizers or feedwater heaters can approach 80% efficiency; doubling the tubing/weight/size/cost with economizers adds only a few percentage points. In experiments, Maxim was able to evaporate up to 26 lbs/hr/sqft with the same copper tubes, but stated that he believed this to be impractical in a working boiler. This was in the 1890s. His thin-wall, small-bore copper tubes [0.020" wall thickness, 3/8" OD] would not fail under steam until a test pressure of 1650 psi was developed. In Professor Carpenter's famous tests on White steam car monotube boilers, a maximum evaporation rate of about 10 lbs/hr/sqft was reached, with high-emissivity steel tubes and a low-emissivity, low-firebox-pressure, low gas velocity, blue-flame vaporizing burner.

Copper tubes in Stanley boilers, at 500+ psi, have been reported to last for decades with proper care and usage, and reportedly give very good heat exchange. They are fitted with steel ferrules to reinforce the expanded tube joints. Not all Stanley boilers have, or had, copper tubes.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 02, 2017 04:42PM
Is this the same thing?

[t.harborfreight.com]

I've been eyeing these type of "flameless" heaters for a while now and wondering how they could be applicable with steam...not sure if we are on the same page here, Z...but it does look like similar technology being used. Same with the old style propane lanterns...with the mesh mantels...that burn white hot while producing no visible flame. Just food for thought.

Jamison
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 02, 2017 08:31PM
Nope, but something like that Harbor Freight unit might indeed be useful for steam cars.

The flameless burners I mentioned are advanced industrial-use combustors. The one I saw illustrations of, which I came closest to understanding, had something like a gun burner sticking into a high-temperature can, its tip a little past the closed end. The can was somewhat larger in diameter than the gun burner. Air & fuel are input there, and when lit, this sets up a small but very intense and fast-moving hot-gas recirculation pattern around the burner head, shaped like a torus or donut, flowing in same direction as burner output in center, then turning and coming back around the outside then in to the middle again, like a smoke ring or mushroom cloud, but fast, so that the burning mix stays in constant high-speed motion in a very defined space, The other end of the can puts out tons of very hot combustion products, but there is no "flame", as they define it. Some of these have steam injection to boost the gas recirculation and also reduce flame temperature to reduce nitric oxide [NOX] in the exhaust -- one of the "acid rain" pollutants. They are incredibly powerful for their size, by steam car standards. Imagine the output of a big Stanley burner packed into something the size of a 12 oz soda pop can, or smaller.

But they are not good for radiant heating, unless maybe a radiant element, akin to the mantle or glow screen on a Coleman lantern or Aladdin brand kerosene lamp [but lots more rugged], was added to the output end of the can.

What they would be good for is an extremely compact boiler, with a huge amount of hot gas blasting through a very small, tight-wound tube stack, with very high-speed forced recirculation of water through the tubes. The convective heat transfer per square foot of tube surface area, and output for a given weight and volume of boiler, would be so high that it would make Lamont-style radiant-heat-absorbing coils look like horse and buggy technology by comparison. Imagine a steam car boiler the size of today's typical car battery.

As Mr. Horse on "Ren And Stimpy" used to say, "no sir, I don't like it." But that's the direction that combustion engineering is headed today. It's a whole new world.

I will see if I can locate one of the scientific papers about it.

Peter

Peter
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 03, 2017 06:13AM
Hi Peter,

I wonder how the heat output stacks up against the SES style flameholder? That sucker packs about 1.5 million BTU into a space that fits inside a coffee can. (I was startled how small it really is, you need to take the drawings and then work your measurements from an assumed 18 inch OD).

To me, the weakest part of the SES burner is the turndown ratio ... and it's not really all that bad in absolute terms. I think they can get about 10:1 before getting a flashback. With an idling main engine, or a auxiliary engine, this might be just fine. On the other hand, I would never complain about the ability to throttle down further... I think about 100:1 would probably be just great for a system that can go from stop to full power and back in a few seconds --- assuming a compact boiler with minimum steam reserve. And that's how things get contrary, once you figure out how to build a really powerful burner you start to have issues making it power down to levels its predecessors matched.

Maybe the secret is in those three way lightbulbs...you take elements with different outputs and operate them either independently or together to achieve a wider range of total capacity...

Ken
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 03, 2017 06:53AM
Hi, giys

As for increasing radiant ability of the blue flame. The thought. Since childhood I remember that bringing only tiny amount of salt to the citchen stove flame makes the blue flame widely opening into yellow orange radiant matter. Then may be to piss some tiny spray of salty water onto the blue flameburner?

Serge
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 03, 2017 09:07AM
So I did some very casual messing around with my burner, the screens, and the stainless scrubbing pads. The result test I used was how hot my hand felt placing it a couple feet above the burner for flue heat, versus a foot or so off to the side for radiant heat. I came to some interesting conclusions.

One screen in the flame turns it from a jet to a slow flame above the screen, which significantly increased the radiated heat and reducing the flue heat. However, this isn't quite enough as there were still flames above the single screen. Tossing some scrubbing pads on top of the first screen made the fire a bit smoky, so that's bad, but it did convert more flue heat to radiant heat. putting 2-3 stacked screens about an inch or so above the first screen seemed to work very well, so I'll probably be targeting that. I think the scrubbing pads would work well if I flattened them out more into a layer of a quarter inch thick maximum. I'll have to work on that tonight. In any case, this shows real promise.

Oh, an note about lantern mantles. These won't work well for our purposes, as they are designed to maximize visible light and minimize infrared emission. I have a gasoline lantern, I may some day try to put some stainless steel mesh or scrubbing pads inside and replace the glass area with a boiler coil and see what kind of output I can get out of it. Keep in mind however that these lanterns only put out a kilowatt or two of heat, which might be okay for say a small bicycle plant at most.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 03, 2017 10:23AM
Quote: "I have read references to soot on tubes being bad for convective heat exchange."

Soot is five times a better insulator than asbestos. Soot on heating surfaces is definitely something to avoid and yet another reason why complete combustion is so important. On our VFT's, if we get even a thin layer of soot in the flues, performance is degraded significantly. When I was developing my car burner to run on Kerosene, many of my tests resulted in yellow flames and soot, which built up about an eighth inch thick on the generating coils, best I could tell, it was cutting the boiler output by about 30%.

-Ron
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 03, 2017 03:01PM
Great stuff, guys! Lots of interesting and important information and possibilities! I have a truckload of design & experimental projects to do with my currently limited "steam time", and huge amounts of information to organize after my recent research/learning frenzy. So I won't be able to get as deep into discussions on the Forum as I would like.

One thing I did want to mention is the "Ottaway Burner Plans", available from the SACA Storeroom. These steam car burners make fire by passing fuel/air mix through about 7500-8000 holes [for the 23" diameter size burner], 0,055 inch diameter each, #54 drill size, in a 1/8 to 5/32" thick plate of Alloy 321 stainless steel.

The plans say "Plate normally burns red hot". So there you have it, a clean blue flame burner which has its own radiant-heat element built right in! Built and tested plans available now.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 03, 2017 04:33PM
Peter.
The burner in my Stanley I cast in Ductal iron and cast the plate thickness to 3/16 thick it’s 18 inches and has 4000 holes. Works great. The thicker the plate the less chance the flame will drop through when the pressure regulator cuts the burner off.
Rolly


Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 03, 2017 04:44PM
Ron I ran an oil burner in my 35 foot boat, running the boiler at 300 PSI.
I ran 150 PSI nozzle pressure at 4 gal per hour with no sooting problems.
Rolly


Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 05, 2017 08:38AM
I did some more experimentation. The stainless steel scrubbers are out. They do more harm than good. However, the screens work very well when placed right at the end of the flames.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 05, 2017 02:55PM
Hi Zimirken,

Sounds like you might be on the right track to increasing the radiant heat from a blue-flame burner. Way to go.

Hi Rolly,

Beautiful workmanship as always! Love the brass(?) mixing tube flares. I have a theory about a "chimney effect" in long/deep slots or holes; when fuel shuts off the walls of the holes or slots heat the remaining fuel/air mix, creating a bit of draft to pull the mix up through the plate and prevent flash-back. It has also been said that if the plate is thick and runs relatively cool [insulated top & mix-cooled from below], then the walls of slots or holes will "quench" any flames that try to pass through the plate in the wrong direction. Others have said that plate thickness doesn't matter, and that if the fuel/air mix pressure under the plate drops to where the mix speed thru plate is lower than the flame speed, then there will be flash-back regardless of plate thickness or temperature.

I am not sure about it either way. There are a lot of factors involved, and the issue seems to be a "can of worms". I do know that there are some burners out there with holes or slots in relatively thin sheet-metal grates. I have not found much information on whether or not those are more prone to flash-back than burners with thicker plates.

Peter
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 05, 2017 04:40PM
Peter
A burner running at full burner rate should produce 2 to 2-1/2 inches of water pressure.
On my 1920 old drilled burner I measured this with a water pressure gauge. I only got 1.8 or1.9 water rate for pressure.
That means if you think about it it’s like flooding the top of the burner with 2 or 2.5 inches of water. That is the pressure above the great, the weight of that much water. The air fuel mixture has to push its way up to feed the burner.
When you shut the fuel off with the automatic pressure regulator the burner pressure can go two ways up through the boiler or down through the grate. The length of the hole or slot is the only thing keeping the flame from doping through. The plate is normally cooler then above the great. Don’t get me wrong it’s still very hot but cooler then the burner gases above. The length of the hole is the only thing that extinguishes the flame and keeps it from dropping through. There is no disadvantage from having a thicker plate.

I should have written more on oil burners.
Atomizing Oil burners, in order to burn very clean need the combustion chamber sized to the nozzle of the burner. Most have ceramic combustion chambers, or an impingent plate.
The higher pressure nozzle produce a much smaller droplet of oil. Most pumps can go to 150 psi some like the H pump can go to 300 psi.
I built a 12V burner to burn six gal per hour when testing my Derr boiler the boiler was hydro to 4000 psi and my intent was to run it at 1000 psi. As it turned out that is too much for a Stanley engine and pumps. It hammered the check ball right through the pumps.
The burner was built with a 310 combustion grade SS for the combustion chamber. This part turned out great. The only problem I in counted was having enough air as there was no room under the car for a large blower. I ran the biggest one I could fit at 5000 RPM.
See attached
Rolly



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2017 05:12PM by Rolly.


Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 05, 2017 08:24PM
Hi Rolly,

Thanks for the Stanley firebox water pressure measurement data. I did not know it was that high for Stanley boilers/burners. I saw an MIT student paper from the 1920s where the student was trying to fit a gun burner to a Stanley, and as part of that he stuck a manometer tube thru the peek hole of the stock burner, while firing, to measure the firebox pressure at 0.06 inches of water! That seemed too low to me; now I know that it was. He probably didn't seal the peek hole. I would have put the manometer probe thru a disk of sheet metal, backed with some asbestos blanket, and pressed the disk/asbestos tight against the burner pan during that measurement. No word on what grade the student got on his paper.

I wonder what the pressure is under the burner plate?

I remember reading about a Stanley steam automatic with a specially polished stem, and I think low-friction packing, which opened and closed its fuel valve very gradually as boiler pressure changed, giving variable firing rate. This caused some problems with dribble when boiler pressure was close to the burner shut-off point. Seems like normally the Steam Automatic stems are a little sticky in their packing, so they "click" from dead-closed to a somewhat high firing rate, and back, as the boiler pressure changes. I don't know if they were originally designed/tuned to work that way from the factory. If it clicked shut from a high firing rate, then a thick plate with good quenching effect would be needed. Polished and variable opening would turn it down more slowly to zero, relieving the firebox pressure thru the firetubes before complete shut off -- if it did shut off. It might not shut off, might just drop gradually to "dribble". Then somewhere along the way it might backfire if the plate was not thick enough. I came up with a "click valve" to (hopefully) stop the dribble, then was told that somebody had already done it, but no details. I think I discussed it on this Forum, many years ago.

Neat oil burner! I reviewed about a million different boiler and burner options recently. For the burner, at one point I looked at forced-air designs which would give a higher firebox pressure so that smaller gas passages and a more compact tube stack could be used. In the process, I found that ordinary electric leaf blowers provide tons of air at very high speeds/pressures, easily more air and pressure than a steam car needs. Some cost as little as $35. Mine was about $80, partly because it has a variable speed control dial. I was thinking of using mine for shop tests, but it could be used on a car, with a 12vdc-110vac inverter. Similar to the way that ModelWorks ran a 220vac Riello home heating oil burner via an inverter in their "Likamobile" cars. But then I remembered Jim Crank's reports on Doble electric burner blowers running the battery dead during extended low-speed stop-and-go driving. I am now working on a vaporizing burner.

I was considering using thin perforated stainless steel sheet for the burner grate, but another idea involved 1/4" x 1/8" steel bars stacked and clamped together with spacers to form deep slots a little less than the 0.023" maximum slot width. That would give a 1/4" thick slotted "plate", with no drilling or slot-cutting. That plate would weigh about 25 lbs for the boiler I am considering, but so far everything else about it looks good. I will take another look at that. I plan various flow & pressure-drop tests for jets, mixing tubes, grates, and tube stack, to get a handle on burner design.

Peter
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 06, 2017 06:15AM
Rolly , I was looking at the photos of your 12volt burner does the height of the burner assy have to be that high, I was building a 12 volt burner for my Stanley type boiler it is very similar to your design, but it was not as high, it was about the same high as a Stanley plate burner. ? this what I have so far.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2017 06:21AM by jjtjr.


Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 06, 2017 09:25AM
Mine is not all that deep, only eight inches, plus two inches for insulation. I had ceramic blanket.
The bottom is just above the tie rod.
Rolly


Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 07, 2017 09:36AM
Some people have used oil burners with Stanley boilers.
The problem as I see it is it takes 19 Sq inches per gal of atomized oil for flue area. with the small tubes of the Stanley boiler all you can count on is 60% of the tube area,
they do make fuel nozzles with a wide angle spray pattern.
Rolly
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 09, 2017 09:28AM
I got the burner part all assembled.

It seems like it works well. Blistering heat in all directions. I'm working on a 3d printed coil form now to rewind my coil this week.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 10, 2017 07:26PM
Hi Zimirken,

I like your burner assembly! I'm honored that you decided to experiment with a Radiant Heat Burner as you call it. When I gave the presentation at the SACA Meet, I referred to it as an Infrared Burner. I believe we are talking one in the same and don't mind if you call it Radiant or Infrared, just that your willing to try it out.

So during my talk, the sophisticated, highly controlled experiment I mentioned involving cooking Bacon smiling smiley included my infrared burner, side burner, on my outdoor grill. An interesting thing happens when I light it. First it burns blue...then it turns red. Hope the pictures captures what I'm talking about. First picture is after it warms up...second picture is attempt to capture the blue flame at start.

What I think is happening is the burning process excites the atoms and their associated electrons are going to a higher state, orbit. When they return, they emit a photon. Hence the change to the red appearance, infrared. This is what gives the superior energy to radiate heat to the surfaces, to the water in a boiler.

Please let us know if this occurs in your experience with your burner?

Kind regards,
Rick Heinig


Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 11, 2017 10:05AM
The stainless steel has a high emissivity, and the wire grids have a very high surface area. So they absorb heat through conduction and convection, and radiate it out as black body infrared heat. Radiation heat transfer has no limits, unlike conduction and convection. Solar thermal plants concentrate hundreds of megawatts of thermal radiation onto a surface of a few square meters and it's all absorbed.

It's very easy to feel the effect by putting your hand off to the side out of the path of the hot gases. Without the screen your hand barely gets warm, but as soon as you put the screen on, your hand starts to get blistering heat within a few seconds once the screen warms up. You can read reviews about radiant grill burners and how they cook steaks super fast and sear the bottom side perfectly. If you dig on youtube you can find a few videos about radiant burners for boilers. The wikipedia page talks about those gas fired radiant heat pipes like the ones in the garden section of hardware stores. It says that they are around 60-70% efficient, and the losses come from unused heat in the flue gas. But since the flue gas continues up into the boiler coils in our application, we should be more efficient.

The thing is you have to make sure the combustion is taking place before the radiant emitter. The screen has to have enough surface area to capture a significant amount of heat from the flue gas. You also have to try to coat things with infrared reflectors, like shiny copper. I think this stuff has very good promise for reducing boiler size. I think the only reason this technology has never really been pursued much until now is because size was never a huge constraint for the majority of industrial boilers. Convection was always good enough.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 11, 2017 03:10PM
I have been looking into radiant heat burners as well and I find this interesting . Very useful. One item my brother and I have come across is some frequencies and/or materials are better than others for this. It looks like you have found a good combination.

SteveW
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 11, 2017 03:18PM
What alloys are you guys using for radiant-heat elements? I like the idea, but I worry about long-term durability of screens, wires, perforated sheet metal, etc, running at incandescent temperatures right in the fire.

As an aside, one thing I remember about D.A. Warriner's burner is that he used a Monel screen under his grate to prevent flash-backs. When firing, the Monel screen glowed _green_. His burner had radial channels, radiating outward from a central can which the single mixing tube connected to. The tops of the channels were filled with corrugated steel wood fasteners, spaced with alternating pieces of sheet metal, to give roughly 0.055" holes that were kind of odd shaped. No drilling or slotting needed, and reportedly it ran well on the road.

Peter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2017 04:24PM by Peter Brow.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 12, 2017 05:00AM
Hi Peter,
The material in most infrared burners is ceramic. You can buy different shapes on-line. You just need to figure out how to build a plenum under it, feed by a mixing tube and trumpet/jet configuration. This would be for a pressure burner.

The Harbor Freight propane heater is more than likely ceramic, the one Jamison pictured.

Kind regards,
Rick Heinig
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 12, 2017 06:15AM
[www.alzeta.com]

Note that top selection is capable of 1.5 million BTU/square foot.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 12, 2017 07:12AM
What is the temperature of the radiant-heat element?

Too hot flunks smog tests. Nox.

Clean blue flame Maxim beats the pants off dirty/yellow/white flame high-radiant Nutz/Lamont. Smog _and_ power/weight.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 12, 2017 07:31AM
And why go "glowy" when a simple, "low-radiant", ultra-light, ultra-low-cost, blue-flame boiler does better? In the 1890s!

Getting '"more advanced", to 1930s emissions standards, seems to me worth skipping. Let's keep it 1890s-clean. smiling smiley
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 12, 2017 07:52AM
Peter Brow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And why go "glowy" when a simple, "low-radiant",
> ultra-light, ultra-low-cost, blue-flame boiler
> does better? In the 1890s!
>
> Getting '"more advanced", to 1930s emissions
> standards, seems to me worth skipping. Let's keep
> it 1890s-clean. smiling smiley


Radiant heat reduces the boiler surface area required for a given heat output.
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 12, 2017 09:34AM
Peter
310 SS is combustion grade SS. 90% of the heat will pass right through the stuff, it can stay bright red all day long.

Rolly
Re: Radiant Heat Burners
October 13, 2017 02:47PM
Looks like fire density and radiant element durability are good with these kinds of burners.. Yesterday I found a small portable propane heater with radiant element, which I used in my old garage in the winter, many years ago. I had forgotten about it. The incandescent ceramic fiber and (310?) stainless perforated sheet which retains it are in good shape after many years of use and then sitting around. I will put radiant burners in the "possibility" file.

Peter
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