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Identify engine, please!

Posted by frustrated 
Identify engine, please!
May 14, 2017 04:09AM
Hi Folks,

I got the following from Mark Sage. He is interested in building something similar to a Serpollet tricycle and, to this end, has obtained a compound automotive engine of 2.5 X 3.25 x 3.18 (2 1/2 X 3 1/4 X 3 3/16).

Basically he is seeking three pieces of information;

1. Identity of manufacturer
2. Suggested operating pressure (I guessed approx. 150 psi)
3. Recommendation of boiler manufacturer.

Any assistance with the above would be appreciated.

Regards,

Ken


Re: Identify engine, please!
May 14, 2017 06:32AM
OK, OK, OK!!!

I attached 6 other photos to the above message and none are displaying! Reattached below.

Thanks for your attention.

Ken


Re: Identify engine, please!
May 14, 2017 11:05PM
Don Bourdon would be a very good supplier for your boiler. Your engine is a Mason type of engine that runs well at 150 psi. 180 pounds/square inch would be the safe maximum limit for this engine. Any more pressure than that seems to destroy its crankshaft. This is an excellent hill climbing combination. Cruising speed would be about 25 to 30 MPH. It could go faster if you dare to do it. Don can give you excellent advice for your boiler and burner size that you would need. Don builds the burners too. I have been very happy with the boilers that Don has built for me.
Re: Identify engine, please!
September 12, 2017 06:51AM
Hi Folks,

I'm consolidating a couple of topics just to make things simpler.

Leo Weibel received the following photo from someone who recently acquired it and has no idea who built it. The only clue is that it has a Kelly Handlebar Company burner and that could mean anything as it was a popular aftermarket installation.

The tiller reaching over the dash is a bit unusual. The seat is a bit different, also, in that it appears to be upholstered all over and the armrests curve up into the back while the sides curve outwards.

Then there's the cutout for the door. Usually the edges have radii but this one is square. The woodwork around it sort of suggests something like that, though.

Then there's the lack of louvers on the body itself, sort of unusual for steam carriages.

Anyone have any idea what it is? I honestly have no idea and sort of play around with the idea that it was a homebuilt.

Regards,

Ken



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 06:53AM by frustrated.


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 12, 2017 09:00AM
Hey Ken,

I have a hunch it's all original and I think that may be an early Marlboro.

-Ron


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 12, 2017 09:33AM
Hi Ron,

I think you're right! There's two obvious differences ... the body in your photo, beneath the dash, seems to wraparound the springs and the tiller arrangement is utterly different. That's well within the sort of changes I'd expect to see given that these things weren't produced on an assembly line. The tiller might even be a matter of modification, who knows? Other than these two things, they seem to be the same machine.

Thanks so much!

Ken
Re: Identify engine, please!
September 12, 2017 11:09AM
Ken,

To take that a step further. The pic I posted, I may be wrong and I often am, but I don't think that is the correct seat on that car, if it is it doesn't fit very well. In this pic, notice the joint at the red arrow and then look at how the body doesn't flow in to the seat highlighted with a parallel green lines. Then have a look at the butt joint at the blue arrow, those joints were typically either tongue and groove or at the very least a rabbet joint. Those coach builders didn't do things like that. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it was at least replaced and not replicated very well, but I really think that car was found without a seat and a Locomobile style seat was made for it. It's possible the mystery car is a more accurate Marlboro. Whatever it is, it's very rare.

Thanks, Ron


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 12, 2017 01:39PM
Ron,

You may be wrong but, if so, I'm right along side you every inch of the way. The seat on the restored machine definitely looks like it is a replacement ... that discontinuity in the angle between body and seat looks out of place. The mystery machine seat seems to flow out of the body. Thanks for the second picture, that really says a lot.

Ken
Re: Identify engine, please!
September 13, 2017 09:21AM
Ken,

I'm 99% sure that is a Marlboro, I did some more searching last night. The rear axle is a bit different in regards to the horseshoe bracing of known examples, but they may have simply changed it.

Regarding the seat on the restored car, here are a few more signs that indicates it is probably not original.

The green lines show the misalignment in the body lines. Those front seat trim pieces are very difficult to make and line up to everything, that is essentially what ties the design of the seat to the body and it is several curves and and compound angles to get it right and align properly. It's the first place I look when looking at a restored "original".

The angle on the base edge is simply 90 degrees, I've never seen one like that, that edge surface is usually parallel to the angle of the lower bucket. You've been following my email group and seen how I do that with a special fixture on a trim router.

-Ron


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 19, 2017 08:51PM
Some pics


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 19, 2017 08:54PM
Still more pics

Interesting how the 4 stiffening bars act as crosshead guides. Boiler has large rivets sticking out above the worn asbestos. Hand feed pump crosswise in front of seat. No manufacturer's marks on engine, valves on outsides rather than inside, valve housings bolted to cylinder block with covers on top of housing. Pattern on brake pedal appears to be stamped in with prick punch.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2017 09:49PM by frustrated.


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 19, 2017 09:02PM
More pics yet, even!

Kelly Handlebar Company burner. Upper suspension bracket forged. Nuts on ends of frame tubes. Steering tiller shaft rides in tube, apparently supported by two bearings like bicycle. Lower end of tube affixed to vehicle, upper end floating free. This allows tube to wiggle back and forth, seems improvised somehow. (pic 18)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2017 09:47PM by frustrated.


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 19, 2017 09:22PM
Last file....couldn't get it to attach before.


Re: Identify engine, please!
September 21, 2017 08:39AM
Ken,

Thanks for the extra pics, I looked at them closely, I am going to go back to I'm not sure what the subject car is. I did some more searching last night and there are a few other cars that are similar, the Reading Steam car made by steam vehicle of America is similar.

Looking at the pics of the "Marlboro" and the subject car more closely now, there are many dissimilarities between the two in the area of the chassis joints. It's unlikely that a low volume manufacturer would totally change their casting patterns in such a short few-year time frame.

There was so much copying from one manufacturer to the next and companies that sold parts to others to build cars, it makes it very difficult to nail down anything definitive unless it has a name plate stating what it is. As you know I'm currently restoring a 1901 Conrad Model 60, Conrad sold casting parts etc to other builders. They sold to one Canadian manufacturer right across the border from Buffalo named Neff (pic attached) who built almost the exact same car with minor revision to the front axle and spring perch.

Just to put things straight. My comments regarding the authenticity of the seat on the pics of the Marlboro are merely suggestions based on my limited knowledge of these early cars and their construction as I am in no way an authority on these vehicles.

-Ron


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File Name File Size   Posted by Date  
serp.jpg 306.5 KB open | download frustrated 05/14/2017 Read message
DSCN1070.jpg 287.2 KB open | download frustrated 05/14/2017 Read message
DSCN1071.jpg 295.4 KB open | download frustrated 05/14/2017 Read message
DSCN1072.jpg 254.7 KB open | download frustrated 05/14/2017 Read message
DSCN1073.jpg 255.6 KB open | download frustrated 05/14/2017 Read message
DSCN1074.jpg 343.3 KB open | download frustrated 05/14/2017 Read message
DSCN1075.jpg 327.8 KB open | download frustrated 05/14/2017 Read message
worn.jpg 339.8 KB open | download frustrated 09/12/2017 Read message
hyman-3-2.jpg 76.6 KB open | download IronChief 09/12/2017 Read message
marlseat.jpg 140.6 KB open | download IronChief 09/12/2017 Read message
marlseat2.jpg 178.2 KB open | download IronChief 09/13/2017 Read message
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