cavitationenergysystems.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2015 03:46PM by HYDRAGON.

OK, lemme see if I have this right. They say that they spin something in water very fast so as to create cavitation bubbles (no problems there, I've seen cavitation stall in a number of centrifugal pumps over the years). Then they subject these bubbles to higher pressure causing them to implode. The compression converts some of the water into steam (at a very mild 400F). Pipe steam to expander. The rationale behind all this is:

"In our tests we have demsonstrated (sic) that we can produce steam using significantly less energy than that required during Rankine cycle thermal heating of water."

I have to admit, my mind is boggled. And here I thought that the tables delineating the sensible and latent heats reflected basic physical law, but these folks claim we can make steam by using fewer BTU than we spend when applying pure heat. If so, the Nobel committee will be calling shortly. In fact, if this is demonstrably true, why advertise on a little known website? GE, Siemens, Westinghouse and every other central power station builder will be tossing money at you.

The other mind boggling concept, of course, is that they claim that they can apply mechanical energy to the water both by making cavitation bubbles and then collapsing them by applying even more energy in the production of high pressure. Then they are claiming that they can extract more energy from the water that was input originally. It would make zero logical sense to put in more power than you take out so, considering that a 20% efficient light steam plant is awfully good, then it follows that for every BTU they spend there must be more than 5 BTU extracted.

I could quote trivial things like "the Law of Conservation of Energy" but it seems to be more fun to examine this using the old scholarly method called "reductio ad absurdum" or, in other words, carrying the idea out to its most extreme incarnation to see if it falls apart under its own weight. Since I can do that with a simple spreadsheet it will cut into almost none of my lunch hour.

Let's assume we build a teeny, tiny cavitation apparatus that can fit in the palm of my hand and connect this to bicycle pedals. If I pump the pedals using 2/10 of a horsepower I should get more than 1 horse back from the system. By applying that 1 HP to a larger stage we get 5 HP back. That will produce 25 HP in the next stage. The following table shows what happens:

STAGE # ........................HP IN........................................HP OUT

1...........................................0.2..................................................1
2...........................................1.....................................................5
3...........................................5...................................................25
4.........................................25.................................................125
5.......................................125.................................................625
6.......................................625..............................................3,125
7....................................3,125............................................15,625
8..................................15,625............................................78,125
9..................................78,125..........................................390,625
10..............................390,625.......................................1,953,125
11...........................1,953,125.......................................9,765,625
12...........................9,765,625.....................................48,828,125
13.........................48,828,125...................................244,140,625
14.......................244,140,625................................1,220,703,125
15....................1,220,703,125................................6,103,515,625

By the end of stage 9 that casual peddling will drive two aircraft carriers at flank speed plus some extra left over. By stage 15 we are up to more than 6.1 TRILLION horsepower. To put this in scale, the entire planetary electrical consumption is about 24 trillion horsepower-hours per year ... roughly equivalent to the heat released by nuclear fission in the earths core. A four hour stint on the bike will cover all that.

One can only ask where all this energy is coming from.

OK, OK, I admit this is an absurb proposition but that is exactly what "reductio ad absurdum" is all about. If we tried the same scenario with the standard Mollier tables and applied the Rankine cycle we would get exactly the opposite, for each stage the output would be tinier than the first and pretty soon your output wouldn't impress an ant.

My message in the next Bulletin briefly discusses the kind of claims we are bombarded with almost daily and gives a few suggestions for analyzing the claims to see if they seem to stand up. With the internet facilitating communication to large numbers of people without the kinds of filters we used to see, this is becoming more necessary than ever.

Regards,

Ken



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2015 11:03AM by frustrated.

xxx



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2015 03:48PM by HYDRAGON.

Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)

Maj. Eaton: We have top men working on it right now.

Indiana: Who?

Maj. Eaton: Top... men.

Well, if a cavitation bubble is a bubble of vacuum, wouldn't it just collapse into nothing when you "compress" it?

Actually, a cavitation bubble is a steam bubble. What happens is that you are doing something that causes a localized drop in pressure such that the water temperature at that pressure is now greater than the saturation temperature and you produce a localized vapor. In the presence of higher pressure the steam bubble collapses and the inrushing water creates a hammering effect; this hammer can be destructive if it occurs against a metal surface such as a propeller blade or pump impeller.

The difference between boiling and cavitation is that we increase the temperature to boil water whereas we reduce the pressure to cause cavitation; both result in vapor bubbles.

GOOD GOD, the flippies are lose again. And some nuts believe this junk!!!
OK, build the damn thing and let's see it work.
Perhaps there is a job in Florida for them where fairy tales and phony data abound at :"Delusions-Are-Us."

The same deluded fuzzy thinking we saw so often at the Rocket Works from some Government "experts". Make the same mistake ten times and expect a different result each time Oh well, there is always room for comic relief. Or is it funny cigarettes out behind the barn?
Jim

HYDRAGON you are welcome on my forum

The reason I don't use the injector on a turbine is because a continuous stream works better. The injector is better for use with a piston engine.


[flashsteam.com]

Thanks Jeremy.Jim no problem mate,we will find out soon,the Dutch say,ook al is de leugen nog zo snel,de waarheid achterhaalt hem wel or in English,even if the lie is fast as shit,the truth will eventually catch it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2015 12:50AM by HYDRAGON.

HYDRAGON Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Jeremy.Jim no problem mate,we will find out
> soon,the Dutch say,ook al is de leugen nog zo
> snel,de waarheid achterhaalt hem wel or in
> English,even if the lie is fast as shit,the truth
> will eventually catch it.

I admire your courage here, I know how much it takes. Right or wrong, you have stood tall and I hope you feel proud and I would like to personally congratulate you!! B.

Thanks Bill.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2015 03:55AM by HYDRAGON.

Perhaps a well trained large group of these guys? There must be cavitation involved. Fuel cost would be low. Probably takes the pour guy a 1000 times longer to "load" though, more than half of which is simple recovery.

With technology, electrical and mechanical, sometimes we come across things that defy conventional science. I've come across enough of it in my research of inventions to conclude that we really don't understand as much as we think we do about how energy works. Of course oil interests have a lot of money involved in the energy realm, and would not like anything coming up that could replace it. Along with the investigation of energy inventions comes many tales of the suppression of those inventions with deadly force. One such tale came as close as my own neighbor who at one time had built a device that made his one ton chevy with small block 350 get 70 MPG. A death threat from some guy driving a caddy scared his wife enough she insisted he lay off the experimenting. This cavitation heater I investigated some time back. It works and seems to create more energy in heat than the mechanical force that runs it, Another of those mysterious things that we don't fully understand. Last I knew they were building them only for oil heating, biodiesel industry, with no official claims of more energy out than in. Too much opposition to that claim even if it is true. There's an electric motor being manufactured that also puts out more than it takes to run. (Floyd's motor) Again no official claims to help avoid opposition. It uses permanent magnets to supply the force with electromagnet control coils to switch it back and forth across different paths. Many motor designs have developed around similar concepts but only that one being manufactured that I know of. Some developing huge amount of power for small inputs, such as the best design of the Adam's motor. Some running entirely on permanent magnets with mechanical speed control. Revealing that there's something more to magnetism than we think. But it's a very dangerous area of technology.due to the money involved in fuel sales, and those profiting from it unwilling to allow anything to replace it. The cavitation boiler may work quite well to power a steam car, and increase it's efficiency quite a bit. Although a conventional boiler/engine burning wood is more to my liking since I have unlimited wood and like to build fires.

Regarding the happy marriage of perpetual motion and conspiracy theory: The internet is an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of keyboards. Just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true.

Any proposal that runs foul of basic math and/or the Second Law of Thermodynamics just isn't going anywhere.

Perhaps it is time for a Crackpot forum so that people who are interested in the science and practice of steam engineering are not bothered by this stuff.

Kerry

Rueben, Hydragon, Bill
There are always critics that think in a small box that anything absurdly new will be immediately criticized .
I have been asked to study the Cavitation Energy Systems and its ability, under very high water injection pressures and velocities into a heated chamber appears to create partial disassociation of a partial amount of the water into the two primary gases that when reburned(exploded) create an output of high pressure-high temperature steam that in enthalpy energy output exceed the electrical energy put in to run the 30,000psi pump and injector.
We are taught in engineering school that over unity is impossible but it may be our limited understanding of science and the universe in total may allow such a thing---one has to expand the box that they are thinking in to allow such conceptions. I have seen two videos of it in working progress, the first direct output of the combustion steam chamber with its steam explosions of output when the H2+ O molecules combine and another wher e a Mike Brown engine(which I designed 20 years ago) is being run by a small unit of this description. Possible or impossible? Before we ridicule such efforts by work of a few competent engineers let us see what developes in the improvements being made. Reminds me of all the ridicule of the cold fusion energy guys that after a long period appear to be coming into new development and fruition.
Would it not be most wonderful if instead of winding great numbers of feet of tubing with a fire under it that a system of partial water disassociation into a high pressure containment vessel could create steam for our dreams of steam cars and other things.
Maybe we should give them some slack time to prove their system.
George-n

Thanks George,

One might remember that classical thermodynamics involves large systems of material, as in macro to micro size groups of molecules. Carnot's laws all apply here. So much heat into an engine and so much a percentage of that heat rejected.

When one gets to the nano size level things can change. Still conserving energy according to the first law but not always operating according to the second law.

Picture, for instance, a nano size gear and ratchet mechanism such that molecules in Brownian movement can hit a gear tooth with enough force to turn it just a little while the ratchet mechanism stops it from turning in the opposite direction. Since the Brownian movement is caused buy the heat in the medium around the gear this is a heat engine and work can be extracted from that little gear. One can see Brownian movement of small particles in water under a microscope.

Notice that work is done in this example but no heat is rejected. The effect would be to slowly extract energy in the form of work from the gear while slowing down the Brownian movement and cooling the medium. Theoretically the gear/ratchet mechanism would go untill the medium reached absolute zero.

Now we are not "outside the box" but inside a really small one.

Best,

Bill G.

Bill,
Quite a post to think about and get my ever more senile old mind around.
Have a wonderful thanksgiving and be well.
Best, GeorgeN

Bill I can't see that Brownian motion would move a gear by pressing on a tooth as surely the movement of particles is random so that the collisions would be equally spread over both sides of the tooth and all over the gear with no preference for one side.

Mike

this directed at "Oxy-Hydrogen Explosions"

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3499/4276846/

I remember hearing about using kinetic energy to break molecular bonds. It was related to heating to 10,000f, the aim was never achieved. again this is another cold fusion application.

As I get time I will look into the cavitation.

Jeremy

Okay " Bubble Power"

http://flashsteam.com/heat-of-rejection

when you run the numbers in theory everything is great, but not so in actual practice.

Take my "Heat of Rejection experiment" We could take an injector heat the water inside the injector to 726f 3000psi. Then discharge the injector into open air, and wow! we would get a spectacular reaction.

The being so impressed with that, its gotta push a piston down, but it did not. instead all the water condensed instantly. Bear in mind the engine block was the same temperature as the room temperature where we got the spectacular reaction.

The only solution was to heat the engine block and head to about 300f then when the injected water at 3000psi, in that case it did push the piston with violent force. And the exhaust steam would burn you.

Jeremy

In other Hydroxy news; a solitary researcher, researching flash steam engine development may hold the key to successful S1r9
(short form of S1r9a9m9) System replication. The website www.flashsteam.com holds a wealth of information surrounding the objective of using flash steam to drive a motor.


http://pesn.com/2007/10/05/9500494_Hydroxy_Revolution

Come on! Water powered cars, more output than input. All breaking the three laws of thermodynamics. Sorry this is unmitigated piffle and not worthy of discussion. If you have ever derived the three laws from first principles there is the aha moment when it clicks. It was a loong time ago but memorable. You cannot violate the thre laws as if you could it immediately would lead to an unsustainable condition and the heat death of the universe.

This is basic to all science.
Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark,
Gee and I had hoped we had seen the last of this comic relief when Delusions-R-Us bit the dust.
You are right, not worthy of comment. Twits without a clue,, let alone basic knowledge.
Jim

You guys must be bored

I don't care one way or other if these things work. But its good for business, if they want to buy a injector to experiment with, I will sell one to them. That last post I made I don't agree or disagree with, but the quote its not me saying that, its a quote from the link., now the first of my post and link to the one Popular Mechanics I do agree with that.

How is it good for business or the steam community if it doesn't work.Taking one cent from somebody and knowing there will never be any return for them. I don't believe its delusiuonal, It's worse. Bill

Your entitled to your opinion, .



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2015 10:26PM by Jeremy Holmes.