Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 20, 2019 12:05PM
Hi Jeremy,
Respectfully and with kind intentions, I need to correct a concept that you are assuming is happening. At one of the Steam Meets I gave a presentation that included a graph about the heat transfer of water and steam. At the boundary layer, good heat transfer. However, through the rest of the volume, heat transfer through water sucks. The talk was about boiler design and the philosophy for using tube boilers and relative sizes to handle or maximize heat transfer. Typically smaller diameter tubing works better for steaming, not so good for flow rate. Also mentioned while presenting the graph about heat conduction through Steam. If you can agree that heat transfer through water sucks, heat transfer through steam is even worse. This is the fundamental reasoning for my favorite word, Adiabatic.

Point is that your concept of using the heat within the cylinder to create the steam is not good...again, respectfully and with kind intentions.

My belief and from my background, the key to your system is to use SC water, release it through your injector and realize the instant change from water to steam (flash system). This will happen adiabatic-ally. With this philosophy, you can obtain the 60% efficiency you dream of eye popping smiley

The exercise you did with the PV diagram backs up this philosophy. It follows the rules for the PV=nRT equation. Consider the PV=constantT
Raise and lower V and T follows up or down in direct proportion (provided constant pressure). Remember my comments and diagrams pertaining to SC, SH and Wet Steam. Just like Super Heat (SH) provides better efficiency. SC gets even better...your key is to provide SC water to your injector. The values are 3,000 PSI and 700 Deg. F.

Also note that the lower part of your PV diagram, the area is negative. It takes away work or better said is that work is negative. Your engine concept is best with higher RPM's and multiple cylinders like an internal combustion engine.

OK my friend, show me how it's done?

Cheers,
Rick
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 20, 2019 02:05PM
Hi Rick thanks for the reply smiling smiley

I have alot more info but am just going to do the correction of the diagram. If you are a certified L1 Master Tech you are expected to understand an ideal 4 cycle theory, at least some do smiling smiley

Take a close look at the attachment this may clear up some of the confusion.


Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 20, 2019 03:01PM
Instead of editing the crap out of my proceeding post, I decided to post again smiling smiley

Quote
Rick
Point is that your concept of using the heat within the cylinder to create the steam is not good...

I dont agree with that, take for example a spark ignition engine. Its critical that heat is gained to produce a power pulse. Why should it be any different on a 4 cycle steam engine, its its own nature. As long as a power pulse is created the engine runs and steam induction benefits this.

Its raining hard thunder storm here going to post while I still can.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 20, 2019 05:02PM
I have been going thru all my data and cannot find the term De-superheating flashsteam engine. By reasons of convince I lost one of my only reference to this term.

Think about it this way, we have compressed superheated steam in the cylinder all that means
'so many btu value"

A pound of water has 180 btu and a pound of steam has roughly 1100 btu.

So im injecting water that has 374 btu regardless of quantity in that instant. the injected water needs 870btu to become steam that can actually push the piston.

In this way, the induced steam as a quantity of btu. I know that the higher the pressure especially steam losses btu value until you meet SC, whereas the working fluid is neither steam or water, the best recollection is its like plasma.

Ok De-superheated is what happens the induced steam is exposed to injected water the key is voluometric efficinentcy. by quantity the superheated steam become less super heated while still remaing as steam

Rick adiabatic means no heat transfer, Although this must not(edit) happen in my examples. Superheating has a battery like quality. Although it can lose btu energy and remain as steam, over coming the latent heat barrier. With steam, Isentropic Compression must be considered coming or going..

It may be De-superheating but needs heat added to work... (edit)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2019 09:04PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 20, 2019 07:51PM
Ok last one for the night smiling smiley

This is a PM from gvagg2 before he passed sad smiley

From: gvagg2
To: Jeremy Holmes
10/02/2010 09:38AM

Hi Jeremy,
I have been examining your site diagrams and comments on your 4 cycle flash steam engine and seen video clips of it. Obviously the timing and control of the injector will be critical to its success, also noting the injector could be used on any modern steam engine.

The circuit diagram does not show a feed pump that would be necessary to keep the injector supplied with water under pressure. Depending on the pressure output of this pump, water below boiling point, steam or supercritical liquid can be injected on the power stroke. You currently envisage injecting water below boiling point and my quick check of likely steam conditions in the cylinder indicate the resulting desuperheating of the compressed steam will reduce the power potential rather than increase it.

Assuming you are seeking an efficient steam engine (achieving a low water rate) I think you would need a mixing temperature of over 800 deg F at TDC. You can get a high compression temperature from a percentage of the steam that has expanded, but you can't afford to compress all of it as more energy per pound is used for compression than you get from expansion work. The inlet and exhaust valve timing and compression ratio will allow the percentage to be adjusted.

Running above 3,200 psi is an issue but it may be necessary for high performance. If you can run the injector on steam, I'd try around 800 psi and 800 deg F as a comfortable level that should not overload any commercial source engine. You will need to run it as a complete system to see how it works out, and put a load on the engine to assess the economy gained. On no load the engine should spin freely up to the rpm it can handle. The actual load it can take in the high rev range will be a true test of its ability. Low speed load will normally be good anyway.

Regards,

Graeme

Quote
Graeme
The circuit diagram does not show a feed pump that would be necessary to keep the injector supplied with water under pressure.

[www.youtube.com] Feed pump pressure

I realize that what you are saying Rick, I only wish I could work with Graeme for a time. You both are saying the same thing (for the most part)

Quote
Graeme
Depending on the pressure output of this pump, water below boiling point, steam or supercritical liquid can be injected on the power stroke. You currently envisage injecting water below boiling point and my quick check of likely steam conditions in the cylinder indicate the resulting desuperheating of the compressed steam will reduce the power potential rather than increase it.

Quote
Graeme
You currently envisage injecting water below boiling point

The designed temp of the injected water is 400f 374btu 247psi so its above boiling point and the pump pressure can control this easily, as 3500psi is easily maintained.

As I said before, I need to perform a live test to observe the spray pattern from the injector in open air with the pump making pressure at room temp.

ok done editing



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2019 09:19PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 20, 2019 09:20PM
Hi Jeremy,
Graph attached where heat transfer of water and steam is plotted.

I'm OK if we agree to disagree. I still think you have something viable.

I have not experienced SC water or steam. I can only imagine that one can apply 3,000 psi on water at 700 Deg. F in a small tube volume. My assumption is that it has tremendous potential energy. Another way of expressing it is that the internal energy is super high. Entropy, not so high. When released into a expanding volume, Entropy is through the roof. It goes right to vapor, dry steam. Internal energy converts to mechanical energy via expansion. I would even venture to say it would react similar to an explosion, simulating the combustion stroke.

What if the water is subcritical? The engine will still work by providing higher pressure to the piston at TDC. The engine will work like a hydraulic engine and with great torque. As an example, let's say the cylinder at BDC is at 5 psi. Assumption, we are working with a 10 to 1 compression ratio. The 5 psi turns to 50 psi at TDC. When the injector injects water, it is at a 1,000 psi. The result is that there is a 1,050 psi force to perform work and it is positive work. The condition of the water is such that when released to an expanding volume, it turns to steam, albeit a wet steam instantly. The temperature is not turning it to steam. The condition pre-exists in the water from the hydraulic pump setting the pressure in the feed portion.

However, your exhaust temperature is higher. This will show up as a bigger inefficiency. You are wise to re-use the exhaust to put back into the cylinder with the intake stroke. Your intake stroke really works as a pump to help the recirculation of the higher temperature exhaust. This does provide for higher efficiency, Carnot efficiency.

I don't know if this would work. But if you took the water from bottom of a boiler separator/drum, instead of the top of the steam drum and run it through a super heater to the injector; I think you would have a good condition for flash steam. When the injector releases the small water shot, it's gonna go right to steam.

Gotta go to bed...goodnight. More in the morning.

Cheers,
Rick


Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 20, 2019 10:05PM
Hi Rick you have just made valid point

Quote
Rick
When released into a expanding volume, Entropy is through the roof. It goes right to vapor, dry steam. Internal energy converts to mechanical energy via expansion. I would even venture to say it would react similar to an explosion, simulating the combustion stroke.


Quote
Rick
What if the water is subcritical?

It is but you have to account for the other sources of heat.

1- Heat from working fluid ie injected water is 400f @3500psi

2- engine cyl head and block/fluid jacket, is heated by heat transfer fluid 345f to 450f this system is oil and uses a forced circulation pump, it does not make any pressure.

3- induction of super heated steam into the cylinder 800f to 1000f (this does not exceed 15psi)

Its my opinion that injecting SC fluid is highly dangerous. It not something I want to stand near, regardless of the safety factor in the fluid lines. The L912 injector has a minimum bursting pressure of 40,000psi according to barlows formula. I would trust the injector and a 4 cycle engine because the intake or exhaust valve is open at BDC the pressure can escape that way.

edit- spelling correction



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2019 10:15PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 21, 2019 05:24AM
Jeremy,
I did not know Graeme. He sounds like a guy I would get along with. Yes, I believe his and mine thinking is on the same track.

I like what you're doing. Part of the reason is that you display excellent potential in a system. Also, you are proving it out...this is a wonderful thing!

I got to watch it, you won't be able to get through the door...your head will be so big smiling bouncing smiley Sincerely, my attention is proof that I'm willing to work with you. Also, I find this conversation very enjoyable. It makes me think through various steam scenarios. This is a good thing.

Regarding a de-super heat device. The purpose is to get the steam condition to a useable state, temperature actually, that the steam does not destroy the engine. I have seen the de-super heat on Chuk's Land Speed machine and also on his "T". I would say that Chuk has excellent experience with sub critical steam. Let us use some values, and Chuk's system will generate steam at 1,000 square (psi, deg F). Mono tubes do this based on direct experience with Tom's buggy. Another story I'll tell you about at the Spring Meet regarding his Buggy...the most fun I ever had at a meet! Off track a little, back, hence the need to de-super heat to bring the temperature of steam down to ~700 F. So Chuk's conditions to the engine are 1,000-700. What I believe is happening is that the water injection under pressure does take heat away from a fixed volume. Key word is fixed volume and not an expanding volume. The condition of his working fluid at this point in the fixed volume is steam and in the super heated range.

Here is the sacrifice, to lose efficiency to save the engine. Otherwise, Chuk would go through engines like butter. Jeremy, I think you have to sacrifice also by working with sub critical water to get your system to work.

In reality, you do get heat from the system (cylinder) to help turn the sub critical water to flash to steam. However, my belief is that it is in the condition of the sub critical water and internal energy prior to injection that is really providing the lion share of the Flash you are achieving. Your water condition is high on the bell curve (up-side of the bell curve) in the T-S Diagram. If you were SC, you would be above the bell curve in the T-S diagram.

In summary, you are breaking new ground working with water conditions that flash. Back to Chuk, he is working with conditions of steam that are high sub critical and accepts sacrifice to have the system work.

Cheers,
Rick


Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 21, 2019 12:16PM
Hi Jeremy,
Attached is a T-S diagram that I modified to represent the Injector System as it is now. I have a proposal for you, to take the compression cycle and change it to a compound. The T-S for this might look like the other T-S attached.

What I'm suggesting is to turn both revolutions, 4Pi, into power cycles with expansion. First is to use the Injector and second is to exhaust into a receiver (constant volume) and expand in the 2nd rev in the engine after a super heat. This makes a lot of sense by the T-S. Point B is where the Injector releases into the cylinder and point where super-heat is applied before vertically descending down, this is where the valve introduces the steam into the cylinder.

My assumption is that we are adiabatic, for the most part. The system is like a compound with re-heat.

After point B, you do not maintain Isobaric because volume is changing. Another thing is to use the heat from the 2nd exhaust as feed water heat to the 1st 2Pi cycle, water to the Injector. Note that I'm used to terms of Pi for they represent a circle, 2PiR is the circumference of a circle. 4PiR is 2 circles.

As I stated before, the area under the curve represents efficiency. I'll sketch a system configuration similar to what you display on your website.

More to come....


Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 21, 2019 01:18PM
Very interesting. The thing is double expansion is but there has to be a smaller diameter high pressure stage then a larger diameter (approximate twice the size of the high pressure piston) low pressure piston stage. What im thinking about is a triple expansion marine engine.

If you had that, then there has to be a crankshaft with two rod journals 180 degrees out of phase.


Im just thinking this off the top of my head. I have a reference that I can consult on this application. Please go on. smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2019 01:22PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 21, 2019 07:42PM
Hi Jeremy,
I guess I'm suggesting the same cylinder for the compound with a fancy valve system. Concept attached.

I think I got wheels turning spinning smiley sticking its tongue out Good luck with this...it's yours to keep.


Attachments:
open | download - Injector - Compound Steam Engine.pdf (235.6 KB)
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 21, 2019 07:50PM
Good night Jeremy and we'll discuss stoichiometric stuff soon...

I wana talk Rocket Stoves - find and attaché Rocket Man (Elton John)???
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 21, 2019 09:53PM
Rick

did you say at some point that you were building a SC boiler.

Elton John - Rocket Man (Live at the Royal Festival Hall 1972) HD
[www.youtube.com]
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 22, 2019 05:05AM
Thank you for "Rocket Man"...I thoroughly enjoyed it! I also enjoyed our discussion.

Yes, at some point I'm going to build a SC generating tube right to a burner. A special device will release the water-to-steam at the highest entropy. While release, SC goes through a proprietary electrolysis and on into a mixing tube similar to a burner. Perhaps the burner will be the ceramic infra red (IR) burner in my Hybrid boiler concept I presented.

Note...all rocket science at this point smoking smiley It will have a kick-ass efficiency.

Also Jeremy...thanks for asking.

With kind regards,
Rick


Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 22, 2019 11:53AM
Sure anyone can build a Carnot engine, all one needs is a potato peeler and some carrots. (that was a joke : )

Cheers,
Rick
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 22, 2019 02:09PM
LOL !!!

Rick glad that you enjoyed the Rocket man video.

This is one of my all time favorites

Do you feel like we do Full Version
[www.youtube.com]

Were working on steam engines- the fire in your eyes keeps me alive..

The Cult - She Sells Sanctuary
[www.youtube.com]

Pharrell Williams - Happy (Official Music Video)
[www.youtube.com]

Gnarls Barkley - Crazy
[www.youtube.com]

Talking Heads - Once in a Lifetime (Official Video)
[www.youtube.com]

blacken tuna steak for dinner







Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2019 09:28PM by Jeremy Holmes.


Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 24, 2019 05:53AM
Insanely good Y2 playlist Jeremy! After my last week of intensive/manic "Stanley Automatic DIY design craziness", I was looking for some recreational music distractional videofication, then figured wtf check out Jeremy's playlist on the SACA Forum, and was not disappointed. How it ain't Admin'd outa here as "off topic", IDK, but I'm glad for it!

60% net thermal efficiency with light steam is possible IMO, but my idea for doing it is way different. I mentioned it here many, many years ago, but the massive negative feedback convinced me to build/test it, and get multiple genuinely independent test results, before promoting it. "There's no arguing with results".

Or, more precisely, if I have test results from several different credible/authoritative sources, like universities, corporations, government agencies, etc, showing 60% net thermal efficiency, then critics who "theoretically prove" that it is impossible, are "out of the loop" for good.

My current project is different, but if it works then many of its features, including the Stanley-style "Three Automatics", can be incorporated into systems with future improvements. Including, perhaps, my "60 Percent System" concept.
,
Other approaches, including yours, may do as well. I am now too far into "nuts and bolts micro-details" on my current "improved/super-Stanley" system, to study other projects/concepts. After it is built and road-tested, I will have time.

Peter
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 24, 2019 08:48AM
Hi Peter, I try to keep the Y2 to a minimum I also own a another site that is a forum Fieldlines this forum has a private side and contains the master playlists. [www.fieldlines.com]

You have to be a logged on user to see that section, I think you would have a good time there and Peter B is open as username. Its all about renewable energy...

Anyone is welcome smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2019 09:32AM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
February 25, 2019 03:18AM
Thanks Jeremy,

I gotta do some down time now and then, so it's just a matter of time till I check it out. Next thing is crossing the i's and dotting the T's smiling smiley on my "Easy-Clean" vaporizing burner cleanout system, which went to the back burner some time back. I'm glad for problem point-outs from Ron etc that got me re/blueprinting automatics -- a useful "distraction". I like your renewable fuels focus. Watching an episode of "Vegas Rat Rods" with a veg-oil diesel on the boob t00b as I type this.

Peter
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
March 24, 2019 08:04PM
Jeremy, while 60% is high and some say impossible I will have to say that given that some power plants have 60% by using reheat and even having turbines at the end that can take some wet steam that it can't be impossible . If it is being done then it cannot be impossible. I admire your work and always like something that can challenge my beliefs. I wish you the best on this.
SteveW
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
March 25, 2019 02:11PM
Thanks Peter and Steve,

Ricks suggestion that in may be a hybrid cycle was very well received on fieldlines.com (I own the site) in the steam section.

This page has animation of the cycle. steam animation

I still have to correct grammar on that page.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
April 17, 2019 12:23PM
Hi Jeremy,

Really enjoy your work. Interested in those injectors you're developing.
I've been trying to reach you, please give me a call at ***-***-*** Thank you

Kyle



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2019 07:11PM by kyleborg.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
August 07, 2019 05:08AM
Yeah I tried to contact Jeremy too to ask about his injectors and discuss them. Got silence, maybe he's like me and normal life exausts him, and he works like nikkola Tesla on the project.
Ok back to learning and lurking.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
September 17, 2019 06:10PM
Wow I actually remembered my password thanks Scott smiling smiley

Lately I have been trying to make some progress on the burner, you would be amused at the volume of air I can get out a 12v battery.

I am moving forward with my work, slow but steady...

Ive been having some problems with seizures, my medication was phased out and when I switched to the alternative thats when the problems started. Ive really been struggling as best as I can I dont want to lose my Driver license.

Rick I want to revisit the discussions on water steam/tables I do agree with you,. as a primer i recommend the example I have here - [flashsteam.com]

just for the record I want to emphasize I am using low pressure super-heated live steam that the injected water comes in contact with.

Oh ya I am the owner of [www.fieldlines.com] smiling smiley and that keeps me pretty busy lately. Just figured I would pop in and see what you guys are up-too

sorry if im repeating my links smileys with beer



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2019 07:38PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
September 17, 2019 06:49PM
Hi Barana,

[flashsteam.com]

I have enough parts to make over 50 injectors. If you would like to visit me I am in Gatlinburg TN. If you can visit here for about a week We could get you dangerously close to building you a injector
Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
September 17, 2019 07:11PM
some recent pictures


Re: 4 cycle Flash Steam Engine
September 21, 2019 07:21PM
G'day Jeremy,
PM sent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2019 07:23PM by barana.
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