Whitby steam bus

Hi all:

Here's a link to a quite fascinating vehicle, the only steam-powered bus in the world:

[www.youtube.com]

--this is a converted Sentinel steam lorry from the early '30's and runs almost daily for most of the year.

Coal fired and has a nasty dirty exhaust--but I guess it isn't running in California so what the heck!

There's other links to "Elizabeth" to look at when you go to the link, be sure to watch more.

BH

Bill Hinote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all:
>
> Here's a link to a quite fascinating vehicle, the
> only steam-powered bus in the world:

OK--so far I don't see a whole lot of interest in this thread. So, I'll indicate my interests and maybe somebody with more interest and/or steam experience would like to contribute.

I haven't been able to access specifics for this vehicle such as engine design and specs, boiler design and specs--it just goes on and on. I think we need to get these numbers into the record, this is obviously a "real-world' operating steam vehicle! Have you seen one of these on the road lately--for better or worse?!?

One of the most fascinating things (for me) that I observed, is--there appears to be some sort of augmented stack flow to bring the firing rate up. I have several opinions based upon several observations during this vid clip. At first I thought there was a steam exhaust augmentor, but the steam seems to be going elsewhere including under the vehicle and even (maybe) thru a condensor. OTOH, it looks like there might be an air-charged blower. Just depends on which part of the video you're watching and I would like to have so much more info about what is going on. Bottom line is, this boiler is being seriously augmented with the thru-flow of air.

I'm continuing to be in disgust at the pollutants being off-put, but that's a result of the realistic times of the early thirties and would be modified into a more "modern" version in the 21st century IMO.

Inviting (even begging!) comments here, this is a real, running, daily-driven steam vehicle. It doesn't get any better!!

Bill H.

Bill Hinote Wrote:

> OK--so far I don't see a whole lot of interest in
> this thread.

Here's another link I found among the many about this vehicle:

[www.youtube.com]

--again, I would like to emphasize--this is a reliable and revenue-producing vehicle! It's hard for we in the hobby-level we operate within to recognize that steam was so reliable and so developed. Time to respect such a diva here IMO!

BH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2014 07:20PM by Bill Hinote.

I wonder if it needs both a driver and a fireman . It would be an interesting challenge to convert a bus or large diesel truck to steam.

Doug-Ji Wrote:
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> I wonder if it needs both a driver and a fireman .
> It would be an interesting challenge to convert
> a bus or large diesel truck to steam.

Yes--they invite the public to become a fireman.

The fireman has to (among other less important things) be able to shovel coal into the firebox.

Personally, I would be honored to be a "fireman" on this vehicle! IMO this is a pinnacle of steam power and for a real steam enthusiast it can't get any better.

BH

It's pretty clear that this bus is actually a Sentinel steam lorry, the bus body is a retrofit to what was originally a heavy freight hauler. These things were used by breweries, longshoremen, mines and quarrys and anyone else wishing to haul heavy goods....which explains the wheel arrangement which seems a massive overkill for a bus.

I'd have to disagree that this is a pinnacle of steam power, the basic designs are well over 100 years old. Basically it is at the same technological level as a Herschmann, Morgan, Foden, White (Paul Helb not Rollin) and so on. All of which worked well but were superceded by better technology. They hired Abner Doble in the 30's to redesign the power plant in an effort to obtain less objectionable fuel consumption. As I understand it, he mostly succeeded but the economics didn't favor retooling.

As far as steam busses go, the Doble efforts in New Zealand and Detroit are probably more instructive. There was also the work done in California during the Clean Air years such as the Brobeck bus.

Regards,

Ken

[en.wikipedia.org]

[www.google.com]

Below are a list of British and US patents relating to Sentinel Waggons. I left out those in French, German and Danish because I am chauvanistic and can't read them. I also left out the patents issued to Abner Doble and assigned to Sentinel during his time in their employ as I don't believe any of that work ever actually made it past the prototype stage and might be better left to a Doble discussion.


GB-1904-01380 1904 Alley Stephen E Improvements in or relating to the Driving-mechanism of Motor Vehicles or the like
GB-1905-04248 1905 Alley Stephen E Improvements in and relating to the Valve Gear of Steam Engines
GB-1905-06404 1905 Alley Stephen E Improvements in and relating to the Steering Wheels of Motor Driven Road Vehicles
GB-1905-06420 1905 Alley Stephen E Improvements in and relating to Emergency Stop Valves for Steam Motors and the like
GB-1905-06424 1905 Alley Stephen E Improvements in and relating to Differential Gear for Motor Cars, Waggons like Road Vehicles
GB-1905-23774 1905 Alley Stephen E Improvements in and relating to the Valve Gear of Steam Engines
GB-1906-25364 1906 Alley Stephen E Improvements in Motor Vehicles
1494569 1924 Alley Stephen E Fluid-operated braking system
1498604 1924 Alley Stephen E Combined engine crank shaft and differential driving gearing
GB-213988 1924 Alley Stephen E Improvements in or relating to Combined Engine-crank-shaft and Differential Driving Gearing
1545180 1925 Alley Stephen E Transport vehicle
1545630 1925 Alley Stephen E Vehicle wheel
1564505 1925 Alley Stephan E Self Propelled Vehicle
GB-293899 1927 Hutt Arthur C Motor Road Vehicles
1674495 1928 Alley Stephen E Tipping vehicle
1730962 1929 Alley Stephen E Tipping vehicle
GB-306733 1929 Hutt Arthur C Steerable Road Vehicle
GB-308114 1929 Woodvine John G R Vertical Steam Boilers
1743514 1930 Alley Stephen E Steam Driven Vehicle
GB-356193 1931 Hutt Arthur C Stoking Apparatus for Fire-boxes
1802256 1931 Hutt Arthur C Steerable road vehicle
1817514 1931 Hutt Arthur C Motor road vehicle
GB-384723 1932 Woolnough William H Improvements in or relating to fire-grates for boiler or other furnaces
GB-393219 1933 Hutt Arthur C Improvements in or relating to steerable road vehicles
GB-388799 1933 Woolnough William H Steam Boiler Feed Water Apparatus
GB-411998 1934 Alley Stephen E Improvements in or relating to mountings for railway vehicle wheel axles
GB-411999 1934 Alley Stephen E Improvements in or relating to vehicle chassis or bogie frames
GB-416390 1934 Hutt Arthur C Improvements in or relating to bogies and axle-trucks on vehicles
GB-420906 1934 Woolnough William H Improvements to Steam Generators
GB-539794 1941 Alley Stephen E Improvements in gas-producer sets primarily intended for use with motor vehicles
GB-539795 1941 Alley Stephen E Improvements in gas-cleansing or filtering apparatus
GB-540495 1941 Alley Stephen E Improvements in closure of a gas-producer chamber or other vessels associated therewith
GB-541883 1941 Alley Stephen E Improvements in tuyeres for & particularly in connection with gas producer or other combination units

Hi Bill

The bus is a Sentinel DG6 which develops 95 bhp at 660 rpm as described at [archive.commercialmotor.com].
I once had a short trip in a 1925 Super Sentinel Waggon and was very impressed when comparing it to the 1970's Bedford diesel I used to drive.
Steam is exhausted into the chimney just like a locomotive, the steam under the cab may be the foot throttle. On the Super Sentinel there was a hand regulator but a foot pedal exhausted steam from the cylinders to assist in slow speed manoeuvres.

Sentinel when in Glasgow were amongst the first in Britain to precision manufacture parts which were interchangeable without hand fettling.

Brian

Brian McMorran Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Bill
>
> The bus is a Sentinel DG6 which develops 95 bhp at
> 660 rpm as described at
> [archive.commercialmotor.com]
> tember-1930/63/sentinels-new-steamer.
> I once had a short trip in a 1925 Super Sentinel
> Waggon and was very impressed when comparing it to
> the 1970's Bedford diesel I used to drive.
> Steam is exhausted into the chimney just like a
> locomotive, the steam under the cab may be the
> foot throttle. On the Super Sentinel there was a
> hand regulator but a foot pedal exhausted steam
> from the cylinders to assist in slow speed
> manoeuvres.

Brian:

Thanks so much for the info and the link.

Did you see in the specs, this beast uses 230 gallons of water in 27 miles. Seems unbelievable to a steam enthusiast at the hobby level.

All the Best,

Bill H.

Bill Hinote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian McMorran Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hi Bill
> >
> > The bus is a Sentinel DG6 which develops 95 bhp
> at
> > 660 rpm as described at
> >
> [archive.commercialmotor.com]
>
> > tember-1930/63/sentinels-new-steamer.
> > I once had a short trip in a 1925 Super
> Sentinel
> > Waggon and was very impressed when comparing it
> to
> > the 1970's Bedford diesel I used to drive.
> > Steam is exhausted into the chimney just like a
> > locomotive, the steam under the cab may be the
> > foot throttle. On the Super Sentinel there was
> a
> > hand regulator but a foot pedal exhausted steam
> > from the cylinders to assist in slow speed
> > manoeuvres.
>
> Brian:
>
> Thanks so much for the info and the link.
>
> Did you see in the specs, this beast uses 230
> gallons of water in 27 miles. Seems unbelievable
> to a steam enthusiast at the hobby level.
>
Further views from an amateur steam enthusiast:

First--the stack was obviously being augmented by the exhaust, as Brian has pointed out. It was obvious because the stack events were synched to the engine cadence. My observations were, the stack intensity seems to be beyond the "traditional" loco events--and my confusion stemmed from the apparently massive but disconnected steam releases under the vehicle. FWIW

Also, using some simple maths and assumptions here: If we take the 230 gallons (1918 pounds!) of water and try to get some sort of magnitude of consumption, we need to make other assumptions as follows: Let's be liberal and assume the vehicle is maintaining its 50 mph top speed during the entire event (not likely but we need to start somewhere). So it would take 27/50=0.54 hours to use the 1918 pounds of water. To find the usage during one hour of operation we then divide the 1918 by the .54 hours and we get 3552 pounds of water used during one hour.

Now, using Brian's quote of 95 horsepower we divide 3552 by 95 and the result is 37.4 lb/hp-hr. This figure is within the realm of possibility--but probably represents a "best-case" scenario.

Comments invited.

BH

Edit: Lots of errors so far, don't ding me yet about this and I'll correct what I can find and make further progress.
Edit 2: Re-did the calcuations for water rate



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2014 02:33PM by Bill Hinote.

Imperial Gallons - 10lbs water per gallon (4.5 Litres) so 2300 lbs per 27 miles If you really want to know we could ask a man who owns one - I'll do it.

Mike

Hi Bill
Another report is available on the older Super Sentinel at [archive.commercialmotor.com]

Using the figures from the report below it averaged 13.3 mph and 46.27 lbs water per mile therefore = 615.4 lbs per hour.
The Super engine has a maximum output of 70bhp therefore allowing 35hp average I would be looking at 17.6 lbs per hp!
78.6 lbs coal per hour = 943236 Btu which is approx. 370 hp. Allow 10% efficiency = 37 hp.
Rough figures but not bad for 1923 and relatively low 230 psi.
Sentinel used poppet valves on all their waggon which may have added to its economy.

The following is a detailed report of the observed results :—
Total mileage ... 55 Running time ... ... 4 hrs. 8 mills.
Average speed ... ... 13.3/ m.p.h. Top speed would be around 25 to 30mph
Gross weight (start), ... 15 0 1 14 Gross weight ;finish) ... '13 14 3 0 Average gross weight... 14 7 2 7 Net weight of wagon... 6 3 3 0
Load at start ... .. 8 16 2 14 Load at finish ... 7 11 0 0 Average load ... 8 3 3 7 Gross ton-miles... 790.80 Net ton-miles ... ... 450.48 Coal consumed ..325 lb. Water used ... 2,545 lb.

Coal per mile ... 5.91 lb. Water per mile... ... 46.27 lb.
Water per lb. coal ... 7.83 lb.
Coal per gross ton-mile .41 lb. Water per gross ton-mile 3.22 lb.
Coal per net ton-mile... .72 lb. Water per net ton-mile 5.65 lb.

Conditions.—Road surface, hard but wet; weather, calm.