OK--Here's the project!
Posted by Bill Hinote
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Re: update 12/03/2013 December 04, 2013 11:43AM |
Registered: 20 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Scotty,
Our SACA President Tom Kimmel has been collecting historical and technical data on every aspect of steam cars from 1930 to the present. The intent is to provide an accurate data base on who did what and if not successful why not, along with what did work as intended and why. The book covers steam generators, boilers, burners, engines, control systems and the philosophy behind them, pumps, throttles, plus all the rest of the components needed in such a vehicle.
There is an impressive reservoir of talented engineers and skilled people who have built, restored and driven many steam cars and who have contributed to Tom's project.
Encourage him to start writing and get this book into print. It might encourage some enthusiasts to learn to do their research first and pay attention to proven advice before blundering along spending time and money on things that do not work and thus eventually becoming discouraged and giving up the subject.
A successful steamer is the product of many critical engineering decisions, all of which are difficult subjects to master. There is no substitute for hard won expertise when it comes to steam powered vehicles.
Jim
Our SACA President Tom Kimmel has been collecting historical and technical data on every aspect of steam cars from 1930 to the present. The intent is to provide an accurate data base on who did what and if not successful why not, along with what did work as intended and why. The book covers steam generators, boilers, burners, engines, control systems and the philosophy behind them, pumps, throttles, plus all the rest of the components needed in such a vehicle.
There is an impressive reservoir of talented engineers and skilled people who have built, restored and driven many steam cars and who have contributed to Tom's project.
Encourage him to start writing and get this book into print. It might encourage some enthusiasts to learn to do their research first and pay attention to proven advice before blundering along spending time and money on things that do not work and thus eventually becoming discouraged and giving up the subject.
A successful steamer is the product of many critical engineering decisions, all of which are difficult subjects to master. There is no substitute for hard won expertise when it comes to steam powered vehicles.
Jim
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FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 08, 2013 10:02PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Hi all:
While waiting for winter to moderate a little so I can fire up my boiler and maybe even run the engine on steam (!!!!!) I've been thinking a little more about my feedwater (FW) makeup pump and how I might "improve" it.
The current conversion using a pneumatic actuator cylinder is successful and will suffice for the immediate future--but there are still imperfections which I would like to iron out and refinements which I have planned, as follows:
First, the current cylinder has a weird restrictor orifice at the "head" end; this means a significant increase in effort is required to create an equivalent pumping effort at that end. Does anybody know why they do that in these cylinders? Comments appreciated!
I'll keep this cylinder and use it for a hand-operated FW pump after the immediate tests--but I'm already planning to move on to a more refined unit. This will consist of 2, double-acting pneumatic cylinders driven by an eccentric using a 12 volt windshield wiper motor assembly and arranged at 90 degrees to each other. The typical rate for the motor with its gear assembly is about 50 rpm; the use of 2 double-acting cylinders means that there will be 4 pump pulses for each rotation--and more importantly the pulses will be substantially overlapped. In addition, the low cyclical rate should eliminate the potential for pulsations that would otherwise require a damping device.
I've located a source for different cylinders which are rated well above the pressure for my system (250 psi rating) and which cost only $3.99 each! I'm hoping these won't have a similar restriction as my first successful cylinder has. There's so many of these for sale on ebay, it's just a matter of finding the most suitable for the job at hand. This will be the third purchase effort at finding the "best" cylinder for my purposes and I haven't spent significant money in the effort at this point.
Also, the issue of priming the FW pump assembly from a dry start is due for a spectacular solution. I have located and ordered a FW makeup tank which has a 5.5 gallon capacity; it's a high-density poly material with 1/4-inch wall thickness and has a vented fill cap and a reinforced 1/2 FNPT outlet on the bottom. It's a remarkable buy on ebay and I will mount it on the top rollbar assembly with substantial restraints. The high location will provide a substantial "head" (almost 4 feet!) to prime the FW pump assembly when necessary--and I've got a plan for a diverter circuit which will prefill the boiler coil on initial startup without the need for a pump.
I'm hoping these thoughts will simplify my "steam-powered" life, we'll just have to wait and see.
Bill
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 01:49AM by Bill Hinote.
While waiting for winter to moderate a little so I can fire up my boiler and maybe even run the engine on steam (!!!!!) I've been thinking a little more about my feedwater (FW) makeup pump and how I might "improve" it.
The current conversion using a pneumatic actuator cylinder is successful and will suffice for the immediate future--but there are still imperfections which I would like to iron out and refinements which I have planned, as follows:
First, the current cylinder has a weird restrictor orifice at the "head" end; this means a significant increase in effort is required to create an equivalent pumping effort at that end. Does anybody know why they do that in these cylinders? Comments appreciated!
I'll keep this cylinder and use it for a hand-operated FW pump after the immediate tests--but I'm already planning to move on to a more refined unit. This will consist of 2, double-acting pneumatic cylinders driven by an eccentric using a 12 volt windshield wiper motor assembly and arranged at 90 degrees to each other. The typical rate for the motor with its gear assembly is about 50 rpm; the use of 2 double-acting cylinders means that there will be 4 pump pulses for each rotation--and more importantly the pulses will be substantially overlapped. In addition, the low cyclical rate should eliminate the potential for pulsations that would otherwise require a damping device.
I've located a source for different cylinders which are rated well above the pressure for my system (250 psi rating) and which cost only $3.99 each! I'm hoping these won't have a similar restriction as my first successful cylinder has. There's so many of these for sale on ebay, it's just a matter of finding the most suitable for the job at hand. This will be the third purchase effort at finding the "best" cylinder for my purposes and I haven't spent significant money in the effort at this point.
Also, the issue of priming the FW pump assembly from a dry start is due for a spectacular solution. I have located and ordered a FW makeup tank which has a 5.5 gallon capacity; it's a high-density poly material with 1/4-inch wall thickness and has a vented fill cap and a reinforced 1/2 FNPT outlet on the bottom. It's a remarkable buy on ebay and I will mount it on the top rollbar assembly with substantial restraints. The high location will provide a substantial "head" (almost 4 feet!) to prime the FW pump assembly when necessary--and I've got a plan for a diverter circuit which will prefill the boiler coil on initial startup without the need for a pump.
I'm hoping these thoughts will simplify my "steam-powered" life, we'll just have to wait and see.
Bill
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 01:49AM by Bill Hinote.
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Re: FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 09, 2013 12:16AM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 95 |
Once again, thanks for the post, Bill. It is always interesting to hear what you are up to.
You may never know what the restriction is for if you don't know the original application of your pump cylinder. It may be a "cushion" designed to limit the speed of the piston as it nears the end of its stroke, particularly if there is an extension of the piston rod that enters the restriction. With a restriction on only one end of the cylinder, the effect would be asymmetrical.
The restriction has a much bigger effect with water than it would have had with air. Because water is essentially non compressible, the restriction will be effective over the whole piston stroke in both directions. Depending on the size of the restriction and the size/speed of the piston, it may be generating much higher cylinder pressure during the discharge stroke and causing cavitation during the suction stroke. It is wasting power and causing unnecessary stress on the drive mechanism during both strokes.
Pulsation dampers can be very useful and do not have to be expensive or elaborate. Water hammer is difficult to predict and may cause numerous apparently unrelated failures of tubing, fittings, shafts, fasteners and assorted other bits...
Kerry
You may never know what the restriction is for if you don't know the original application of your pump cylinder. It may be a "cushion" designed to limit the speed of the piston as it nears the end of its stroke, particularly if there is an extension of the piston rod that enters the restriction. With a restriction on only one end of the cylinder, the effect would be asymmetrical.
The restriction has a much bigger effect with water than it would have had with air. Because water is essentially non compressible, the restriction will be effective over the whole piston stroke in both directions. Depending on the size of the restriction and the size/speed of the piston, it may be generating much higher cylinder pressure during the discharge stroke and causing cavitation during the suction stroke. It is wasting power and causing unnecessary stress on the drive mechanism during both strokes.
Pulsation dampers can be very useful and do not have to be expensive or elaborate. Water hammer is difficult to predict and may cause numerous apparently unrelated failures of tubing, fittings, shafts, fasteners and assorted other bits...
Kerry
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Re: FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 09, 2013 12:49AM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
kerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once again, thanks for the post, Bill. It is
> always interesting to hear what you are up to.
> Kerry
Hi Kerry:
Thanks for your input!
Too late, too old, too cold!! Look for a reply to your commentes-es-vous tomorrow.
Kindest Regards,
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 06:28AM by Bill Hinote.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once again, thanks for the post, Bill. It is
> always interesting to hear what you are up to.
> Kerry
Hi Kerry:
Thanks for your input!
Too late, too old, too cold!! Look for a reply to your commentes-es-vous tomorrow.
Kindest Regards,
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 06:28AM by Bill Hinote.
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Re: FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 09, 2013 03:24PM |
Registered: 20 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Bill,
It really does puzzle me why you go to so much trouble trying to make some totally unsuitable item do duty it was never intended to do.
If you now want a reliable water feed pump, CAT in particular and HYPRO both make very good high pressure water pumps, with CAT pumps starting at 0 .13 gpm size. CAT even has a line of pumps where the ring drag opens the big inlet valve and they pump really hot water very well.
Even the pump from an old used pressure water would do the job for you.
Kerry is right, add a pulsation damper to the pump outlet, they are cheap.
Jim
It really does puzzle me why you go to so much trouble trying to make some totally unsuitable item do duty it was never intended to do.
If you now want a reliable water feed pump, CAT in particular and HYPRO both make very good high pressure water pumps, with CAT pumps starting at 0 .13 gpm size. CAT even has a line of pumps where the ring drag opens the big inlet valve and they pump really hot water very well.
Even the pump from an old used pressure water would do the job for you.
Kerry is right, add a pulsation damper to the pump outlet, they are cheap.
Jim
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Re: FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 09, 2013 04:55PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Jim Crank Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> It really does puzzle me why you go to so much
> trouble trying to make some totally unsuitable
> item do duty it was never intended to do.
Jim:
It's called MONEY--and I don't have any! I'm raiding my monthly grocery budget to buy what little I can to create forward progress.
It's a great way to lose weight........
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 05:23PM by Bill Hinote.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> It really does puzzle me why you go to so much
> trouble trying to make some totally unsuitable
> item do duty it was never intended to do.
Jim:
It's called MONEY--and I don't have any! I'm raiding my monthly grocery budget to buy what little I can to create forward progress.
It's a great way to lose weight........
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 05:23PM by Bill Hinote.
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Re: FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 09, 2013 06:40PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Jim Crank Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you now want a reliable water feed pump, CAT in
> particular and HYPRO both make very good high
> pressure water pumps, with CAT pumps starting at 0
> .13 gpm size. CAT even has a line of pumps where
> the ring drag opens the big inlet valve and they
> pump really hot water very well.
..............also, I did a price-filtered search on ebay for Cat pumps, there's nothing there for less than $100. Out of my price range.............
B.
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you now want a reliable water feed pump, CAT in
> particular and HYPRO both make very good high
> pressure water pumps, with CAT pumps starting at 0
> .13 gpm size. CAT even has a line of pumps where
> the ring drag opens the big inlet valve and they
> pump really hot water very well.
..............also, I did a price-filtered search on ebay for Cat pumps, there's nothing there for less than $100. Out of my price range.............
B.
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Re: FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 09, 2013 06:47PM |
Registered: 20 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
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Re: FW pump thoughts 12/08/2013 December 09, 2013 06:52PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Jim Crank Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> If two pressure washers for $20.00 each is too
> much at two local surplus machinery joints, there
> is a problem trying to build any steam thing.
>
Not in Tehachapi--and I can't afford to drive to the Bay Area.
B.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> If two pressure washers for $20.00 each is too
> much at two local surplus machinery joints, there
> is a problem trying to build any steam thing.
>
Not in Tehachapi--and I can't afford to drive to the Bay Area.
B.
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Quick cost analysis of my project December 09, 2013 07:01PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Since the current subject seems to be about money I thought I would comment about how much I have spent so far on this project.
My best estimate is that I have about $700 total invested, and there's not a lot more which needs to be purchased. The biggest expense upcoming will be a set of good tires for the rear wheels and getting the engine chained up to the axle.
I've found that a little patience and a lot of research can reduce costs by an amazing factor.
Also, I have a lot of materials in my inventory so that has reduced my dollar costs.
Also, I like to think that a little ingenuity applied to create a hardware solution is a fun part of putting a steam power project together. Personally, I think the use of pneumatic cylinders for feedwater pumping might be a bit ingenious and the quality of the part compared to its price is certainly worth consideration.
FWIW
Bill
My best estimate is that I have about $700 total invested, and there's not a lot more which needs to be purchased. The biggest expense upcoming will be a set of good tires for the rear wheels and getting the engine chained up to the axle.
I've found that a little patience and a lot of research can reduce costs by an amazing factor.
Also, I have a lot of materials in my inventory so that has reduced my dollar costs.
Also, I like to think that a little ingenuity applied to create a hardware solution is a fun part of putting a steam power project together. Personally, I think the use of pneumatic cylinders for feedwater pumping might be a bit ingenious and the quality of the part compared to its price is certainly worth consideration.
FWIW
Bill
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Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 09, 2013 09:42PM |
Registered: 20 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
|
Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 09, 2013 10:28PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Jim Crank Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> That is what the telephone, internet, e-mail and
> phone books are for.
> Steam cars in any form have always been and are an
> expensive hobby.
>
Jim:
Thank you for your relevant comments.
I've made all the replies to the current conversation that I'm going to, and will leave this sub-thread alone now.
Bill
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> That is what the telephone, internet, e-mail and
> phone books are for.
> Steam cars in any form have always been and are an
> expensive hobby.
>
Jim:
Thank you for your relevant comments.
I've made all the replies to the current conversation that I'm going to, and will leave this sub-thread alone now.
Bill
|
Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 10, 2013 08:26PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 488 |
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Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 10, 2013 11:26PM |
Registered: 20 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Keith,
Go to CAT Pumps on Google and see their whole catalog, it's very big. Look at both the plunger pumps and the piston pumps. One goes down to 0.3 gpm and the other down to 0.13 gpm The piston pump has a big inlet valve in the head that opens by ring drag so it will pump hot water. Use a pulsation damper.
I have used both and they are very good pumps. The 0.13 maximum flow is 1CX01SEL50231.
You do need to spell out everything for them, like rpm, type of fluid to be pumped, fluid temperature, pressure desired, type of drive, etc., then they will tailor the pump exactly for your use.
I wish while our web site is being overhauled, they would make it easier to park it while you go to Google to look something up.
Jim
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 11:46PM by Jim Crank.
Go to CAT Pumps on Google and see their whole catalog, it's very big. Look at both the plunger pumps and the piston pumps. One goes down to 0.3 gpm and the other down to 0.13 gpm The piston pump has a big inlet valve in the head that opens by ring drag so it will pump hot water. Use a pulsation damper.
I have used both and they are very good pumps. The 0.13 maximum flow is 1CX01SEL50231.
You do need to spell out everything for them, like rpm, type of fluid to be pumped, fluid temperature, pressure desired, type of drive, etc., then they will tailor the pump exactly for your use.
I wish while our web site is being overhauled, they would make it easier to park it while you go to Google to look something up.
Jim
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 11:46PM by Jim Crank.
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Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 11, 2013 05:13AM |
Registered: 20 years ago Posts: 375 |
Jim Crank Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I wish while our web site is being overhauled,
> they would make it easier to park it while you go
> to Google to look something up.
>
> Jim
Jim,
You probably know this bit it's worth a reminder!
Just open another window in your browser and Google in there, leaving the forum post open to come back to when you have the info. Alternatively copy and paste your part completed post into your word processor and copy and paste it back into the forum later. if I'm writing a long post I usually do it in the word processor in case it gets lost mid post as can sometime happen, to much fury on my part.
Mike
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I wish while our web site is being overhauled,
> they would make it easier to park it while you go
> to Google to look something up.
>
> Jim
Jim,
You probably know this bit it's worth a reminder!
Just open another window in your browser and Google in there, leaving the forum post open to come back to when you have the info. Alternatively copy and paste your part completed post into your word processor and copy and paste it back into the forum later. if I'm writing a long post I usually do it in the word processor in case it gets lost mid post as can sometime happen, to much fury on my part.
Mike
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Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 19, 2013 03:28PM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 12 |
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Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 19, 2013 05:35PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Scotty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill
>
> Any progress to report?
Hi Scotty:
Thanks for your interest and inquiry.
I dropped the ball--literally!!!! I was in the process of doing a final check on the engine and in particular on the bash valve intakes, rechecking the lift value (.035" BTW). Well, I got dumb and dropped one of the 1/2-inch diameter silicon nitride balls and it just got a life of its own and went somewhere into hiding. I'll bet I've spent an hour or more looking under and behind everything, it's just gone.
I got the replacement today--but now the weather has returned and so I'll be waiting several days for things to improve again. We had an ice fall today so not a good time to put water into a boiler coil.
Meanwhile I've prepared 3 gallons of boiled (for degassing) distilled feedwater with sulfite for deoxygenation and the ph is set at 11.5-12.0 to create compatibility with steel and iron. Also, added 4 oz. per gallon of soluble oil to coat and lube things.
Also, I have installed a 5.5 gal. poly feedwater holding tank on the top of the rollbar assembly and piped it to connect to the feedwater makeup pump. This is a really nice piece, 1/4-inch thick walls and a vented cap and a reinforced 1/2FNPT outlet. The installed height will make priming the FW system a no-brainer.
I'll roll the kart out and fire things up at the first good opportunity. Firing the boiler and seeing consistent steaming with desired temps and pressures with venting to atmosphere, then a quick pause to pipe things up to the engine and run on steam for the first time. It's going to be an exciting event, I'll try to get a little video if I can juggle things and get a few extra seconds.
Happy, steamy Holidays to all!
Bill
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bill
>
> Any progress to report?
Hi Scotty:
Thanks for your interest and inquiry.
I dropped the ball--literally!!!! I was in the process of doing a final check on the engine and in particular on the bash valve intakes, rechecking the lift value (.035" BTW). Well, I got dumb and dropped one of the 1/2-inch diameter silicon nitride balls and it just got a life of its own and went somewhere into hiding. I'll bet I've spent an hour or more looking under and behind everything, it's just gone.
I got the replacement today--but now the weather has returned and so I'll be waiting several days for things to improve again. We had an ice fall today so not a good time to put water into a boiler coil.
Meanwhile I've prepared 3 gallons of boiled (for degassing) distilled feedwater with sulfite for deoxygenation and the ph is set at 11.5-12.0 to create compatibility with steel and iron. Also, added 4 oz. per gallon of soluble oil to coat and lube things.
Also, I have installed a 5.5 gal. poly feedwater holding tank on the top of the rollbar assembly and piped it to connect to the feedwater makeup pump. This is a really nice piece, 1/4-inch thick walls and a vented cap and a reinforced 1/2FNPT outlet. The installed height will make priming the FW system a no-brainer.
I'll roll the kart out and fire things up at the first good opportunity. Firing the boiler and seeing consistent steaming with desired temps and pressures with venting to atmosphere, then a quick pause to pipe things up to the engine and run on steam for the first time. It's going to be an exciting event, I'll try to get a little video if I can juggle things and get a few extra seconds.
Happy, steamy Holidays to all!
Bill
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Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 19, 2013 09:46PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 101 |
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Re: Quick cost analysis of my project December 19, 2013 10:26PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Doug-Ji Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what are you using for soluble oil?
[www.crcindustries.com]
-------------------------------------------------------
> what are you using for soluble oil?
[www.crcindustries.com]
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update 12/20/2013 December 20, 2013 06:09PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Today I tried to work a little on the project, anticipating my first run with the engine on steam.
Trouble is, I couldn't get the temp in the garage above 40 deg. F!
My goal was to check the engine internals and button everything up so I can get the intake fittings for the steam in place.
Connecting rod big-end bolts properly torqued--check.
Bash-valve lift value checked--NOT!! The ceramic balls are really slippery and so using the depth-gauge end of a digital caliper is a poor method of obtaining useable values. I stopped trying and will make a cylindrical aid to drop into the space above the check ball; then I can get useable readings and just subtract the spacer height to get the actual value. With a flat lower surface, minor axial offsets will be unimportant.
I'll try to get a visual image posted so you-all can see what I'm trying to accomplish; I'm moving a friend over the weekend so another slowdown but I'll try to work this in.
Bill
Trouble is, I couldn't get the temp in the garage above 40 deg. F!
My goal was to check the engine internals and button everything up so I can get the intake fittings for the steam in place.
Connecting rod big-end bolts properly torqued--check.
Bash-valve lift value checked--NOT!! The ceramic balls are really slippery and so using the depth-gauge end of a digital caliper is a poor method of obtaining useable values. I stopped trying and will make a cylindrical aid to drop into the space above the check ball; then I can get useable readings and just subtract the spacer height to get the actual value. With a flat lower surface, minor axial offsets will be unimportant.
I'll try to get a visual image posted so you-all can see what I'm trying to accomplish; I'm moving a friend over the weekend so another slowdown but I'll try to work this in.
Bill
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Re: update 12/26/2013 December 26, 2013 11:05AM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Hi:
This is a report of a test session which occurred on 24 December.
My goal was to check for consistent operation of the steam generation system--and if successful to attempt to run the engine on steam for the first time.
The first part of the test was highly successful with steam generated at pressure of up to about 125 psig and 200 degrees C. It's interesting to note that the firing rate I have been using so far is quite conservative and probably less than 1/2 what the burner is capable of--and yet steam is being generated faster than it can be used so the pressure is still rising at max steam throttle, venting to atmosphere. Very satisfying performance so far.
The manual FW makeup pump worked pretty well and I was able to maintain a good water level as measured by my level sensor (converted spark plug) in the separator tower driving a big green LED indicator light. Green light ON, water level GOOD.
After fully warming up the steaming system I quickly piped the engine up and opened the throttle and pulled the engine through with the pull starter. Result: The engine refused to run. Although disappointing to me, I need to research the probable cause and create a fix so I can move ahead. This engine has run on compressed air at 50 psi so there's no reason for it to not run on steam IMO.
I'm suspicious of the intake valves at this point and it's possible that my setting for valve lift is in error. I will bench the engine and disassemble it, checking everything as I go and then I will attempt to run it again on compressed air before another steaming attempt.
There's lots to do at this point, just keeping my head down and moving forward.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2013 11:25AM by Bill Hinote.
This is a report of a test session which occurred on 24 December.
My goal was to check for consistent operation of the steam generation system--and if successful to attempt to run the engine on steam for the first time.
The first part of the test was highly successful with steam generated at pressure of up to about 125 psig and 200 degrees C. It's interesting to note that the firing rate I have been using so far is quite conservative and probably less than 1/2 what the burner is capable of--and yet steam is being generated faster than it can be used so the pressure is still rising at max steam throttle, venting to atmosphere. Very satisfying performance so far.
The manual FW makeup pump worked pretty well and I was able to maintain a good water level as measured by my level sensor (converted spark plug) in the separator tower driving a big green LED indicator light. Green light ON, water level GOOD.
After fully warming up the steaming system I quickly piped the engine up and opened the throttle and pulled the engine through with the pull starter. Result: The engine refused to run. Although disappointing to me, I need to research the probable cause and create a fix so I can move ahead. This engine has run on compressed air at 50 psi so there's no reason for it to not run on steam IMO.
I'm suspicious of the intake valves at this point and it's possible that my setting for valve lift is in error. I will bench the engine and disassemble it, checking everything as I go and then I will attempt to run it again on compressed air before another steaming attempt.
There's lots to do at this point, just keeping my head down and moving forward.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2013 11:25AM by Bill Hinote.
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Re: update 12/26/2013, FW pump refinements December 26, 2013 11:20AM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Hi again:
I have some thoughts about the FW makeup pump as it currently exists and how I should refine it into the final form it will become.
The use of pneumatic cylinders appears quite successful at this point. The shaft seal is remarkable, the drag is so low it's hard to believe it could be effective--and yet there's never been a single drop of leakage. Reminder: These cylinders are available off ebay for $3.99 each, amazing stuff.
The simple intake check valves using silicon nitride balls on modified brass fittings is working--but needs upgrading because the balls are not properly contained and float off the seats with any reasonable cycle rate other than "dead-slow". It will be necessary to place travel stops to limit the ball movement, a relatively easy fix to create.
Manually operating the pump is quite educational and reveals the intermittent pumping action of a single, double-acting cylinder. I will be creating the final pump with 2 cylinders placed at 90 degrees to each other so there will be 4 pump pulses per revolution and the pulses will be overlapping, creating a much smoother action and allowing me to power the pump with a small electric motor. Longer-term plans call for the pump to be driven by the steam engine, a project to be addressed after I'm turning wheels and driving the project around.
A quick note about the circ pump (Oberdorfer gear pump driven by 1/5 horsepower electric motor at 1725 rpm): The shaft seal leaked some but a little judicious tightening fixed that right up. The motor apparently isn't even breathing hard during continuous, extended operation--it never even gets warm. Eventually I'll get around to a current consumption reading. Right now it's the noisiest item in operation and I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and mount the assembly on isolators to reduce the sound level, the frame is like a giant audio speaker right now.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2013 11:32AM by Bill Hinote.
I have some thoughts about the FW makeup pump as it currently exists and how I should refine it into the final form it will become.
The use of pneumatic cylinders appears quite successful at this point. The shaft seal is remarkable, the drag is so low it's hard to believe it could be effective--and yet there's never been a single drop of leakage. Reminder: These cylinders are available off ebay for $3.99 each, amazing stuff.
The simple intake check valves using silicon nitride balls on modified brass fittings is working--but needs upgrading because the balls are not properly contained and float off the seats with any reasonable cycle rate other than "dead-slow". It will be necessary to place travel stops to limit the ball movement, a relatively easy fix to create.
Manually operating the pump is quite educational and reveals the intermittent pumping action of a single, double-acting cylinder. I will be creating the final pump with 2 cylinders placed at 90 degrees to each other so there will be 4 pump pulses per revolution and the pulses will be overlapping, creating a much smoother action and allowing me to power the pump with a small electric motor. Longer-term plans call for the pump to be driven by the steam engine, a project to be addressed after I'm turning wheels and driving the project around.
A quick note about the circ pump (Oberdorfer gear pump driven by 1/5 horsepower electric motor at 1725 rpm): The shaft seal leaked some but a little judicious tightening fixed that right up. The motor apparently isn't even breathing hard during continuous, extended operation--it never even gets warm. Eventually I'll get around to a current consumption reading. Right now it's the noisiest item in operation and I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and mount the assembly on isolators to reduce the sound level, the frame is like a giant audio speaker right now.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2013 11:32AM by Bill Hinote.
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Re: update 12/26/2013, FW pump refinements/more December 26, 2013 07:00PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Hi again:
After some serious thought processes and balancing of effort/reward ratios I've decided to abandon the FW makeup pump project using pneumatic cylinders.
I've got so many things to think about and reverting to "no-brainer" hardware to avoid developmental issues is a key to moving toward a running project IMO.
In this case, I already have a nice Procon vane pump in hand which is rated at 250 psi--well above the range of pressures I'll be needing. Further, my evaluation of this pump is that the quality of design and construction is far beyond anything I'll need.
Because of the low temps of the FW makeup this pump should stay reliable over a reasonable (or longer!) period of time--especially if I provide intake filtration of particulates which could erode the delicate vane edge surfaces otherwise (thinking Mazda/Wankel here). Again, I'll start with a manual cranking scheme to get a feel for how the pump operates within the system--and then add an electric motor to provide the necessary power.
Development of a power system like I'm doing with a small Rankine system for vehicle power is a dynamic event with all the variables moving around; one result is, the target for success in each component also moves around and there become many potential solutions. No single answer is totally "correct" as a result!!!!
FWIW
B.
After some serious thought processes and balancing of effort/reward ratios I've decided to abandon the FW makeup pump project using pneumatic cylinders.
I've got so many things to think about and reverting to "no-brainer" hardware to avoid developmental issues is a key to moving toward a running project IMO.
In this case, I already have a nice Procon vane pump in hand which is rated at 250 psi--well above the range of pressures I'll be needing. Further, my evaluation of this pump is that the quality of design and construction is far beyond anything I'll need.
Because of the low temps of the FW makeup this pump should stay reliable over a reasonable (or longer!) period of time--especially if I provide intake filtration of particulates which could erode the delicate vane edge surfaces otherwise (thinking Mazda/Wankel here). Again, I'll start with a manual cranking scheme to get a feel for how the pump operates within the system--and then add an electric motor to provide the necessary power.
Development of a power system like I'm doing with a small Rankine system for vehicle power is a dynamic event with all the variables moving around; one result is, the target for success in each component also moves around and there become many potential solutions. No single answer is totally "correct" as a result!!!!
FWIW
B.
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Re: update 01/04/2014 January 04, 2014 02:41PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Hi all:
Here’s a list of current activities related to my kart project:
1. I’ve mounted the Procon pump and made up a hand crank for it. I’m warming to the idea of using the Procon as the FW makeup pump, it’s rated for the job and the vane design means there will be no pulsation problem. Besides, it’s in my inventory! I’ll try it out temporarily as a hand pump during upcoming testing and then make a decision based upon my observations at that time.
2. The steam supply to the engine is badly in need of a water separator trap as close to the engine as possible. I will move the small “dump” valve (which is currently near the throttle) onto the base of the trap to release any excess water there. The steam outlet to the engine will be at the top so the water will fall to the bottom and not go into the engine (I hope). Right now, massive quantities of water (probably condensed steam in cold lines at startup) are getting to the engine and I would like to have some control over this.
3. I’ve disassembled the engine for inspection after the unsuccessful test just before Christmas. I found the lift value for the bash valves was well below my .035” spec and appeared to be about .010” instead. I’m not sure how this could have slipped by me but I’m going to need to refine my method of setting the lift pin height to guarantee the required value. BTW I checked all the hardware, it doesn’t appear there is any “slop” or looseness in any related part. I’m working on reassembling the engine right now and hope to make another test run in the next several days.
4. While disassembling the engine I had an opportunity to look at the oil in the crankcase to see how it reacted to all that water. I’m using Mobil SHC 634 by the way. The oil is slightly cloudy but the separation is quite pronounced and I believe this oil will be very suitable for the job. BTW this engine has 2 drain plugs (on opposite sides of the block) and I’ve installed a little stopcock in one of the locations so I can drain off any excess water building up.
Bill
Here’s a list of current activities related to my kart project:
1. I’ve mounted the Procon pump and made up a hand crank for it. I’m warming to the idea of using the Procon as the FW makeup pump, it’s rated for the job and the vane design means there will be no pulsation problem. Besides, it’s in my inventory! I’ll try it out temporarily as a hand pump during upcoming testing and then make a decision based upon my observations at that time.
2. The steam supply to the engine is badly in need of a water separator trap as close to the engine as possible. I will move the small “dump” valve (which is currently near the throttle) onto the base of the trap to release any excess water there. The steam outlet to the engine will be at the top so the water will fall to the bottom and not go into the engine (I hope). Right now, massive quantities of water (probably condensed steam in cold lines at startup) are getting to the engine and I would like to have some control over this.
3. I’ve disassembled the engine for inspection after the unsuccessful test just before Christmas. I found the lift value for the bash valves was well below my .035” spec and appeared to be about .010” instead. I’m not sure how this could have slipped by me but I’m going to need to refine my method of setting the lift pin height to guarantee the required value. BTW I checked all the hardware, it doesn’t appear there is any “slop” or looseness in any related part. I’m working on reassembling the engine right now and hope to make another test run in the next several days.
4. While disassembling the engine I had an opportunity to look at the oil in the crankcase to see how it reacted to all that water. I’m using Mobil SHC 634 by the way. The oil is slightly cloudy but the separation is quite pronounced and I believe this oil will be very suitable for the job. BTW this engine has 2 drain plugs (on opposite sides of the block) and I’ve installed a little stopcock in one of the locations so I can drain off any excess water building up.
Bill
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Re: update 01/11/2014--engine project January 11, 2014 04:46PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Hi again:
Today I carefully reset the lift pin height and then after re-assembly of the engine I rechecked the lift value for the (ceramic ball) bash valves.
All good--let's try a test on compressed air.
Result: The engine ran but with decreasing RPM and increasing roughness. I rechecked several things--and found the bash valves had yet again returned to minimal lift values. It appears that my experiment with using plumbing parts for the ceramic balls to seat on is a total failure. Makes sense--the quality of the metal in the "seat" for the ball is probably pot metal or at best, soft steel. My bet is, the seat I cut into the top of the short nipple is probably mushrooming out due to the quality of the metal and the wall thickness.
My next step is to decide whether to continue on with the use of the ceramic balls--in which case I will need to use the hardened drill guides I have in hand for them to seat into. Another possibility is to convert to SS reed valves which will have very low mass and adequate conformability to a seat due to their flexibility.
Stay tuned, it looks like I'm gonna miss my schedule for presenting a running kart project at the March meet in CA--but I'll have plenty of hardware to show (some running) and lots of experiences to relate.
This is NOT a failure--but yet another learning experience from which a better version of the project will result. I will not accept failure, and the only failure is the one which is a fail to learn from and to move forward from as a result.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2014 04:49PM by Bill Hinote.
Today I carefully reset the lift pin height and then after re-assembly of the engine I rechecked the lift value for the (ceramic ball) bash valves.
All good--let's try a test on compressed air.
Result: The engine ran but with decreasing RPM and increasing roughness. I rechecked several things--and found the bash valves had yet again returned to minimal lift values. It appears that my experiment with using plumbing parts for the ceramic balls to seat on is a total failure. Makes sense--the quality of the metal in the "seat" for the ball is probably pot metal or at best, soft steel. My bet is, the seat I cut into the top of the short nipple is probably mushrooming out due to the quality of the metal and the wall thickness.
My next step is to decide whether to continue on with the use of the ceramic balls--in which case I will need to use the hardened drill guides I have in hand for them to seat into. Another possibility is to convert to SS reed valves which will have very low mass and adequate conformability to a seat due to their flexibility.
Stay tuned, it looks like I'm gonna miss my schedule for presenting a running kart project at the March meet in CA--but I'll have plenty of hardware to show (some running) and lots of experiences to relate.
This is NOT a failure--but yet another learning experience from which a better version of the project will result. I will not accept failure, and the only failure is the one which is a fail to learn from and to move forward from as a result.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2014 04:49PM by Bill Hinote.
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Re: OK--Here's the project! February 07, 2014 12:27PM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 5 |
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Re: OK--Here's the project! February 07, 2014 12:50PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
mekennedy1313 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Newby here, any info on the engine you are
> using/plan to use? Plans for the boiler? If
> committing a faux pas asking please advise.
>
Go to page 3 of the subject listings and find complete info on the engine (valves being updated currently to reed valves) under "IC ENGINE CONVERSION FOR KART PROJECT".
Go to page 2 of the subject listings and find complete info on the boiler under "experimental boiler design/build".
B.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Newby here, any info on the engine you are
> using/plan to use? Plans for the boiler? If
> committing a faux pas asking please advise.
>
Go to page 3 of the subject listings and find complete info on the engine (valves being updated currently to reed valves) under "IC ENGINE CONVERSION FOR KART PROJECT".
Go to page 2 of the subject listings and find complete info on the boiler under "experimental boiler design/build".
B.
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update 03/09/2014 March 09, 2014 06:37PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Update 03/09/2014:
I've been gone awhile, and probably forgotten; I'm Baaack!
Attached are several images taken this afternoon, I had hoped to run the new intake configuration today but as usual when you prototype something even the little changes take a monstrous amount of time to accomplish. In addition, "life" has taken up a lot of my time but my health, wealth and happiness are augmented as a result so worth the effort. It's hard to believe that I have to allot my time according to orders of importance at the age of 67--don't "retire", you won't have the time for yourself you thought you might!
Anyway, the modification of my HF Predator 212 engine (single cylinder "Honda clone", 212 cc displacement and VERY stout) from its original conversion to a bash-valve engine using silicon nitride balls, to the latest effort using reed valves from a Campbell-Hausefeld compressor--is nearing completion.
The first of the attached images shows the layered head assembly parts with gaskets just below; in order of description the left side is closest to the piston, as follows:
1. The "clearance volume" plate. This establishes a space above the piston because the original volume was cast into the original head which I'm not using.
2. The "cylinder head plate". This actually seals the cylinder--and also incorporates the reed valves and their ports (the reeds are shown in place with their retainers with radiused bending points to relieve stress concentrations).
3. The "chamber volume plate", a piece of 3/8" thick aluminum which allows the reed valves a space to operate within--and which also provides a volume of steam for the valves to feed into the cylinder. See below for additional insight and the second image which pictorializes this concept. Note: This plate is in a "roughed-out" condition!! Lacking milling facilities I was forced to create the volume by drilling the periphery and then cutting-out the necessary material and hand-filing to the current crude condition. Again, if this conversion works (as I hope and believe it will) I'll find the facility to finish the edges to a finer condition.
4. The "cover plate", which has the fitting for the steam inlet (it's a 3/8 brass flare fitting), the stop bolts to prevent excess valve travel due to inertia at very high rpm's--and the empty port into which the auxiliary clearance will be screwed, please review this concept in prior posts.
All labels for the above components are arbitrarily created titles by me.
The 3 (white) gaskets are cut to fit from virgin PTFE and the other is the original steel gasket.
One slowdown that has occurred today is that I found the need to create a new set of lift pins which reflect the reduced port length (and volume) and so the existing pins are 'way too long. Yet another delay but not a long one, all developments on this version of the intake/head assembly are pointing to higher performance and reduced complexity so I'm willing to wade through the slight delays.
Also BTW the current exhaust ports thru 3 of the 4 plates are just 3x holes, 1/2-inch OD; if this version of the engine runs I'll go back in and remove the material between the holes as has been done in the 4th plate, look at the image. Remember the flow is not only dependent upon port area but also upon the flow x the exhaust duration and I'm using a substantially longer duration than original (with the exhaust ports revealed at roughly 50% of stroke against the "traditional" of about 90%). OK all you math junkies, I know the math isn't quite as simple as that but the importance of the difference in port-open timing remains regardless (note, I didn't say "irregardless", a common grammatical error!).
Now, to the second image; this shows a partial assembly of the new head parts. In particular you can see how the reed valves have a volume to work within--and how there is a volume for the intake steam to "settle" into in each cycle, ready to feed the cylinder with minimum flow,
I'm staying optimistic about this version of my engine conversion--until I find that I've created another error that could prevent its success. This kind of challenge is quite exciting to me I'm willing to accept it!
BH
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2014 07:25PM by Bill Hinote.
I've been gone awhile, and probably forgotten; I'm Baaack!
Attached are several images taken this afternoon, I had hoped to run the new intake configuration today but as usual when you prototype something even the little changes take a monstrous amount of time to accomplish. In addition, "life" has taken up a lot of my time but my health, wealth and happiness are augmented as a result so worth the effort. It's hard to believe that I have to allot my time according to orders of importance at the age of 67--don't "retire", you won't have the time for yourself you thought you might!
Anyway, the modification of my HF Predator 212 engine (single cylinder "Honda clone", 212 cc displacement and VERY stout) from its original conversion to a bash-valve engine using silicon nitride balls, to the latest effort using reed valves from a Campbell-Hausefeld compressor--is nearing completion.
The first of the attached images shows the layered head assembly parts with gaskets just below; in order of description the left side is closest to the piston, as follows:
1. The "clearance volume" plate. This establishes a space above the piston because the original volume was cast into the original head which I'm not using.
2. The "cylinder head plate". This actually seals the cylinder--and also incorporates the reed valves and their ports (the reeds are shown in place with their retainers with radiused bending points to relieve stress concentrations).
3. The "chamber volume plate", a piece of 3/8" thick aluminum which allows the reed valves a space to operate within--and which also provides a volume of steam for the valves to feed into the cylinder. See below for additional insight and the second image which pictorializes this concept. Note: This plate is in a "roughed-out" condition!! Lacking milling facilities I was forced to create the volume by drilling the periphery and then cutting-out the necessary material and hand-filing to the current crude condition. Again, if this conversion works (as I hope and believe it will) I'll find the facility to finish the edges to a finer condition.
4. The "cover plate", which has the fitting for the steam inlet (it's a 3/8 brass flare fitting), the stop bolts to prevent excess valve travel due to inertia at very high rpm's--and the empty port into which the auxiliary clearance will be screwed, please review this concept in prior posts.
All labels for the above components are arbitrarily created titles by me.
The 3 (white) gaskets are cut to fit from virgin PTFE and the other is the original steel gasket.
One slowdown that has occurred today is that I found the need to create a new set of lift pins which reflect the reduced port length (and volume) and so the existing pins are 'way too long. Yet another delay but not a long one, all developments on this version of the intake/head assembly are pointing to higher performance and reduced complexity so I'm willing to wade through the slight delays.
Also BTW the current exhaust ports thru 3 of the 4 plates are just 3x holes, 1/2-inch OD; if this version of the engine runs I'll go back in and remove the material between the holes as has been done in the 4th plate, look at the image. Remember the flow is not only dependent upon port area but also upon the flow x the exhaust duration and I'm using a substantially longer duration than original (with the exhaust ports revealed at roughly 50% of stroke against the "traditional" of about 90%). OK all you math junkies, I know the math isn't quite as simple as that but the importance of the difference in port-open timing remains regardless (note, I didn't say "irregardless", a common grammatical error!).
Now, to the second image; this shows a partial assembly of the new head parts. In particular you can see how the reed valves have a volume to work within--and how there is a volume for the intake steam to "settle" into in each cycle, ready to feed the cylinder with minimum flow,
I'm staying optimistic about this version of my engine conversion--until I find that I've created another error that could prevent its success. This kind of challenge is quite exciting to me I'm willing to accept it!
BH
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2014 07:25PM by Bill Hinote.
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Re: update 03/09/2014 March 10, 2014 08:58PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Bill Hinote Wrote:
> Now, to the second image; this shows a partial
> assembly of the new head parts. In particular you
> can see how the reed valves have a volume to work
> within--and how there is a volume for the intake
> steam to "settle" into in each cycle, ready to
> feed the cylinder with minimum flow,
>
BTW interesting to note how the steam supply line becomes a different sort of animal.
Instead of supplying the necessary steam on a direct basis the supply line simply replaces the steam which was in the chamber where the valves are. The steam chamber is easily capable of supplying the necessary steam volume at most or all of the pressure demanded.
The result is, the flow into the chamber to replace the steam takes place over a massively increased time increment and the engine never sees a compromised steam delivery due to wire drawing from a restrictive feed line.
Yet another FWIW
BH
> Now, to the second image; this shows a partial
> assembly of the new head parts. In particular you
> can see how the reed valves have a volume to work
> within--and how there is a volume for the intake
> steam to "settle" into in each cycle, ready to
> feed the cylinder with minimum flow,
>
BTW interesting to note how the steam supply line becomes a different sort of animal.
Instead of supplying the necessary steam on a direct basis the supply line simply replaces the steam which was in the chamber where the valves are. The steam chamber is easily capable of supplying the necessary steam volume at most or all of the pressure demanded.
The result is, the flow into the chamber to replace the steam takes place over a massively increased time increment and the engine never sees a compromised steam delivery due to wire drawing from a restrictive feed line.
Yet another FWIW
BH
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update 03/13/2014 March 13, 2014 08:14PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
Update 03/13/2014:
The issue of my non-running bash valve engine is continuing to evolve.
Yesterday I "refined" the valve lift settings and tried again--with no improvement (still won't run). A lot of thought about what is happening and the result is, I'm sure I've set my sights 'way too high on the recompression value. The real world is, I have to be able to pull the recoil starter through the compression--and the engine has to be able to run at reasonably reduced levels of operating pressure compared to WOT.
So today I cut and partially finished a clearance volume plate with twice the clearance volume (1/4 inch thick instead of 1/8 inch). This means the target for recompression is now roughly 75 psig instead of the design max steam generator output of 150 psig. I hope to finish, install and test the engine with the new clearance volume as soon as tomorrow unless "life gets in the way" as usual.
The ramifications of this are many including the ability to idle at a lower throttle setting and the optimum efficiency is now at roughly 1/2 throttle; also, the steam usage at full throttle will be increased but since the steam generator is 'way oversized this shouldn't be an issue--and the full-power output will actually be increased so I'm not having a problem with this modification.
Stay tuned as usual, it's hard to do a bash-valve conversion wrong (but I have!) and so it's just a matter of getting things corrected.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2014 11:19AM by Bill Hinote.
The issue of my non-running bash valve engine is continuing to evolve.
Yesterday I "refined" the valve lift settings and tried again--with no improvement (still won't run). A lot of thought about what is happening and the result is, I'm sure I've set my sights 'way too high on the recompression value. The real world is, I have to be able to pull the recoil starter through the compression--and the engine has to be able to run at reasonably reduced levels of operating pressure compared to WOT.
So today I cut and partially finished a clearance volume plate with twice the clearance volume (1/4 inch thick instead of 1/8 inch). This means the target for recompression is now roughly 75 psig instead of the design max steam generator output of 150 psig. I hope to finish, install and test the engine with the new clearance volume as soon as tomorrow unless "life gets in the way" as usual.
The ramifications of this are many including the ability to idle at a lower throttle setting and the optimum efficiency is now at roughly 1/2 throttle; also, the steam usage at full throttle will be increased but since the steam generator is 'way oversized this shouldn't be an issue--and the full-power output will actually be increased so I'm not having a problem with this modification.
Stay tuned as usual, it's hard to do a bash-valve conversion wrong (but I have!) and so it's just a matter of getting things corrected.
Bill
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2014 11:19AM by Bill Hinote.
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