Team Steam USA

Karl
You may want to check US Army or Navy archives. These companies submitted detailed test reports trying to get military contracts, like Besler book from SACA on their landing craft proposal.
Years ago my friend now deceased tested the Besler engine at the Woods hole Navy lab.
Woods hole Mass.
Rolly

[www.youtube.com]

Nelson explaning the LSR car! These things seem to pop up everyware.
Harry

Boy, it sure would be cool to read something about what the car HAS done rather than reams of stuff about what it's GONNA do.

Hi Heavy
So would I, as it is still under construction and it is cool. Only the Stanleys. Crank, and the Brits have done anything so far. Jim can tell you how long it took, and the Brits took about ten years. We started this car only a year ago, and it is all new from the body to the chassis to a scratch built engine, even the gear box. This package had to be totally enginered not just tossed together. Most of this Nelson and I did in our spare time. The engine has been dyno tested and it does what it is suposed to do. We also have published some dyno numbers.

If you would like to have it move faster, we welcome all sponsors, as it is sponsor driven. Lots of thanks to our loyal supporters. A Cyclone car is a win-win situation as there is a very good possibility it will power your car someday. Not since the Stanleys has this been done!
Harry

Where have you published the dyno data, please?

"Hi Clint
Come on down the weather is great.
Just returned from the show. The car went over extremely well. It was really neat how Marla and Nelson new so many people in the business and are so well respected. The Mickey Thompson sponsors (tires) had a group there and there were very pleased. Rain Magic sponsors and others were there. We are still looking for others for sponsorships.
I did promise you some dyno info. It is continually up dated as running in different places depending on the length of the run so as to very the torque. The engine on the dyno will easily exceed well over 100 hp and has run to 1015# torque at 35%cutoff. At the West Palm Speed Way we will be running the longest cutoff approximately 15% where at the Cape about 10 % and 7-8 % at Bonnieville where we only need 200#. At West Palm there will be no record set because of the length of the run however we do think it will be impressive. There is no specific date for this as yet as arrangements with the track have to be made but we will let everyone know when it gets closer.
Harry "
HI Heavy
This was Dec 2 There are several runs necessary. I just picked out this one as the torque is impressive and proves the power is there. We are the only ones to my knowledge that has done this. Nelson is in charge of the project and what we finely release is up to him.
This is still racing..
I will try to answer as many questions as I can.
Thanks
Harry

"HI Heavy
This was Dec 2 There are several runs necessary. I just picked out this one as the torque is impressive and proves the power is there. We are the only ones to my knowledge that has done this. Nelson is in charge of the project and what we finely release is up to him.
This is still racing..smiling smiley
I will try to answer as many questions as I can.
Thanks
Harry"

I don't see any dyno run data, just more claims. I like to see raw data, like measured torque, RPM, cutoff, steam pressure and temperature in the steam chest, length of run, amount of fuel used, type of fuel and BTU content, amount of feed water used etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 11:51AM by heavysteamer.

HI Heavy
That is from the dyno printout not just a claim. It has been released in other venues. We are a public company and canot release things of that nature that are not true. If you would like to see all the sheets and data a significent sponsorship is in order, then you can peek. The high torque is at full cuttoff 35% . The HP was well over 100. I under stand that there could be three other cars out there, I donot know if any one else has released any dyno information on their engine as yet ?
Harry

HLS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HI Heavy
> That is from the dyno printout not just a claim.
> It has been released in other venues. We are a
> public company and canot release things of that
> nature that are not true. If you would like to see
> all the sheets and data a significent sponsorship
> is in order, then you can peek. The high torque is
> at full cuttoff 35% . The HP was well over 100.
> I under stand that there could be three other cars
> out there, I donot know if any one else has
> released any dyno information on their engine as
> yet ?
> Harry

You've been promising dyno data for a long time now. One of the cars that I know of has actually run at Bonneville with a body with the Cd of a barn. The engine in that car has done quite well in the SACA speed trials. I like solid results. Just old fashioned, I guess.

Hi Heavy
I can only speak for ourselves. That is a true Dyno number. This is the engine on the dyno.
Harry

HLS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Heavy
> I can only speak for ourselves. That is a true
> Dyno number. This is the engine on the dyno.
> Harry

I assume you are speaking of the torque number? The value should be in ft-lbs. What was the RPM for that figure? Steam flow? fuel flow? Steam chest pressure and temperature? These are the type of results I look for in a dyno run. I've seen pictures before.

HI Heavy
There is more than one dyno run. The rpm is of course is lower when we are running at full 35% cutoff. We had a very high torque of 1015 ft lbs at this starting cutoff. We do not have a steam chest and read the temperature and pressure on each cylinder. The temperature and on this engine is always above 1200f. It is designed to run at 3200 psi and some times we might very this a little. The design rpm for this engine is 3700 rpm and the tests are to balance the cutoff with the track we will be running on. The MK 5 engine has run over 5,000 rpm. We are not running fuel consumption numbers as it is not necessary, however the burn rate can be over 20 gph using twelve of our special injectors. We do a lot of testing with JP-8 or diesel fuel but our plan will be to use all bio fuel for the runs. I do not want to give you combined numbers as the maximum hp is not to be released as yet. Just said what it did. I suppose you have seen other LSR engines on the dyno and have the results? I we could possibly have put the engine in the car and went up the street but that is not winning that would be just grand standing and would prove nothing. Nelson is a professional and when he runs it will have a purpose. If you want to see the full graphs be a qualified sponsor!
Get on board with a winning team!
Harry

HLS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Heavy
> That IS from dyno results...... I do not know
> what you want..... I do not understand you. No
> race team would divulge all their secrets. I gave
> out enough information however you did not seem to
> understand it. If you want to see, then help and
> pay. No free ride. You have not shown me any
> reason to give out all our racing data. What team
> are you on? Who are you? This is not a forum for
> VC it is for steam fans. The proper venue for
> discusing the company would be a real Cyclone
> business contact.
> Harry

If you do not understand me, you do not understand steam. I only asked for a very few dyno test results, never asked for all of your racing data. I am a steam fan. I am not on a team, but if my health holds out I may join one. Who am I? A member of your team called me a year or two ago and we had a bit of a conversation. At the time I said I would lay off my requests for engineering data, but things have changed since then. Why should I pay blind? That would be kind of foolish, wouldn't it?

Hi Heavy
I still do not know where you are coming from. I will say it again. That is all the information that we will release into the public. We have a lot more dyno data on the LSR engine but only a bonified sponsor will see it. I did not question your steam knowledge, would never ask you to do anything blind, neither would I. Again, who are you?
Harry

Gentlemen,

The Steam forums are for sharing. The person who owns the information decides what they wish to share, and when. If this is not enough information for you, PLEASE take your conversation private ( preferably email ), and spare the rest of us from needing to decide whom is in the right.

If I may say a few words in support of Scott Finegan who spends at least half an hour every day going over posts on the Phorum. It appears that there is a back story going on here somewhere. I think the point has been made and it is time to get along and go along. It appears to me that the problem is one of predicting the future. You should always remember what Yogi Berra said: "Predictions are difficult, particularly concerning the future". Any time engineering development work is being done it always takes twice as long and costs three times as much as estimated, or maybe it is the other way around, or maybe it is a lot more than two or three times. It is difficult for me to take sides on this one: to make a comment on the person who made the predictions or to say something about anyone who would believe a prediction. As a person who is trying to get good steam information out there to our club members and anyone else interested in steam power I am encouraging anyone who is spending money on steam development projects. I could go on, but cannot imagine anything that will make this situation better. Tom Kimmel

Tom-Harry,

Sorry; but this one I cannot let go by without comment, being so personally committed to the steam car.

As one who has done a lot of Rankine cycle consulting work for legitiment companies, restored his own three and built and helped build a few and has been approached by even more hoping to cash in on this "Green" hysteria, several hard facts became quite evident. Far too many today are quick buck gamblers hoping to cash in on the latest fad, they hope and steam still has that magic aura to it.

1) Not one of them had the millions in funding to even pay for the initial engineering and drawings and first feasibility or proof of concept hardware. Some thought that $100-$300 K was more than enough to do that AND produce the first working prototype ready for production. Don't we wish!!
The knowledge and expectations of the modern costs of competent CAD draftsmen, pattern makers, foundries and machine shop time and the time to completion even if all went well were right out of Alice in Wonderland.
2) Like that Government sponsored Clean Air Car project, most of the management had the idea that the
hardware would work as expected the first time right off the drawing board and quickly too, expected schedules were right out of comic books.
3) Except for Roy Renner and myself during that steam bus and Clean Air Car effort, not one member of their Boards, the principal investors or the consulting "engineers" they had previously hired knew one damn thing about steam engines and all the bewildering variations possible. Every one thought that a few with theoretical educations and not one whit of practical experience would be able to come up with and deliver success on command. As to hands on experience working on and driving steam cars, good luck. This includes the EPA and CARB too.
4) The need for a basic machine shop, fully instrumented test lab with a good dyno and lab test steam generator, the following statements were universal: "What do we need that for? You need how much for this!!?"
5) Far too many had principal investors that constantly wasted time asking why their absurd own ego driven ideas were being ignored during the first planning meetings. When it was the principal investor with a bloated idea of his own ability, the living legend in his own mind, that was the time to say: "Thanks for the nice lunch and the best of luck" and run, don't walk, out the nearest exit. When their head man came equipped with a PhD and demanded that his ideas be incorporated, you stay at your own peril. We see these in SACA too.
6) As to having a thorough knowledge of past steam vehicle history and the ability to intelligently discuss it, the number totaled ZERO, replaced by raging ego and fairy tale engineering, if you can call it engineering.
The lack of knowledge, let alone where to find it, was conspicuous. As also was the ability to know fantasy from reality. Many such are not able to tell the difference and more important, WHY. Engineering by management fiat just does not work; but management abounds in self delusion..
7) Some had the fantasy that should this steam car actually materialize and run the way it was supposed to run, that General Motors, Ford, Chrysler and the foreign car companies would be banging on the door with bags of cash demanding a license to manufacture the engine. When told they would be lucky to even get a polite yawn, they refused to believe it. It didn't fit the business plan they had palmed off on their ignorant investors. Only a couple had things correct, that they start with some high priced limited production niche car for collectors, maybe some heavy truck conversions demonstrating the real advantages inherent in a steam engine with that enormous torque, or some markets easier to penetrate like clean quiet outboard motors, quiet generator sets for yachts and motor homes or solar and waste heat recovery systems. Business plan models were quite often simply astonishing in their naive thinking. Most had marketing VPs with hyper active imaginations and not one whit of automotive or power systems knowledge. Frequently matching that of the founder and CEO. Fast shuffle used car peddlers who could dance faster than Fred Astaire. Again, run as fast as you can for the nearest exit.

There still is a cancer affecting new steam car development. It only takes a few fast buck entrepreneurs or stock swindlers to poison the steam car revival hopes. Don't think for a moment that this "green" panic and burning carbon free fuels has not brought then racing out of the woodwork looking for investment suckers, for it certainly has.
The other damaging bunch are the ones promoting technically grossly incompetent systems and particularly magic engines that often cause snickering on a mass scale by those who know better. Often a smart grade school kid in his science class can punch holes in some of these contraptions. Technical ignorance of advanced Rankine cycle systems and hardware abounds.

Perhaps this data is one thing that SACA should somehow collect and provide. Promote SACA as being the one source of Rankine cycle technology, both historical and technically advanced, there is no other source. Don't just talk about doing this, do it.
Coupled with this data collection scheme will be the need to make the existence of this library widely known, to the professional engineers as well as the dedicated amateurs. Having and collecting a huge library on Rankine cycle technology is in itself a fine thing; but it does no one any good if it is too far to visit or not universally known and accessible to the engineering community. Since we now live in the age of digital information and computers, perhaps that is the mechanism for using this library.
Yes this all takes funding; but perhaps some of the wealthy enthusiasts might consider funding such an effort as a non profit corporation. It is tax deductible you know.

The general lack of educated new engineers with a real working knowledge of really advanced Rankine cycle systems can be counted on two hands and all because of their own personal interest, not by being taught in school, those courses vanished 60 years ago.
A crippling pity and a fatal ingredient and a result of the general rejection of small Rankine cycle systems being worth studying in college any more.

Am i discouraged, well no, for the data on how to do it correctly is known, providing you have access to that data or the people who do know it and who are willing to mentor you. It is only a matter of doing a bit of quiet advising and providing proven guidance to serious efforts if asked. If the client-student doesn't want to listen, that's his problem let him learn the hard way. Be sure the check clears first.

What really concerns me much more than any sand box whining about technical design features of a steam car is the slow but steady advance of the battery electric car. Just now TESLA has paid off a big chunk of their government loan and are getting very good press. Whether one likes electric cars, they really are nice quiet vehicles to drive with smart acceleration, or not is not now a debatable question, the electric car now is a fact of life and it is not going to go away.
Unless a nice steam powered GT is shown and demonstrated at the SEMA show in Las Vegas and at the Los Angeles Auto Show, both being the biggest high performance car shows in the country, the steamer is going to be a dead issue no matter how good it is.

Quite frankly I couldn't care less who the eventual engine builder is, just providing there is one. From what I know, Cyclone is the closest one to achieving this. What is scary is if another group are secretly doing the same thing and following the principals that Harry has pioneered only keeping silent until they are ready to spring it on the world. Some do that you know, not everyone goes running blabbing to the media right off. Searching has produced no one else; but quite a few firms I know about are better at keeping their traps shut than the CIA, so who really knows. Only that it has to be done and damn soon, or wonderful driving characteristics or not, greatly reducing the CO2 and burning home grown bio fuel or not, steam cars will only remain the fascinating hobby that they have been since 1946 or so.

Keep the faith, we might make it yet.
Jim

PS. As to divulging all the technical details about the Cyclone LSR car, only a rank amateur would entertain doing that. AFTER it sets the land speed record for steam, then it would be appropriate,
When I started road racing with my brand new MGA, the things we dreamed up and did to that poor car would have gotten me kicked out of the SCCA for life, if they ever found out, You don't beat the pants off Porsche 1600 Supers with a stock MG anything in the production races and we never got caught, the inspectors couldn't find anything and they sure tried, such fun,



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2013 04:10PM by Jim Crank.

When will there be some new news posted on the Team Steam web site? Latest news there is from Dec 4, 2012.

Regarding the fascinating 65 mph landing craft information Rolly posted, I purchased the only May 1942 issue of Mechanix Illustrated available on-line and at least the express mail was cheaper than the magazine. There was nothing about the boat in the issue. Some research divulged that the article was actually in the December issue. The closest library with one is two days away, so I ordered the only December issue available online from a military archive which is only opened on a fixed and infrequent schedule and it has just arrived. I was surprised that the article was not only very different from what I expected, but was also very familiar. It is primarily about a craft which looks like a short bomber fuselage with giant torpedo-carrying pontoons. That design, not later seen in the press, is illustrated in excellent detail showing the LaMont boiler and many proposed features. The text offers a raft of variations. Aircraft boilers are discussed and one is shown sawn in half (?!). The language is very puffed up throughout to create the most positive view of the design potential without stating that any parts or systems have been tested.
At the end of the article on a separate page, comes the boat picture Rolly included and a photo of Frank Bellanca. The caption to the boat picture reads "This 65-mile-an-hour Garber landing boat is another type set for fame with LaMont steam boiler." and says nothing more can be revealed. This says two things. The boat is a "65-mile-an-hour boat" and that it is "set for fame with LaMont steam boiler." The language, like the descriptions of the earlier design, seem to suggest it is designed for 65, but does not actually say it was clocked at that speed nor that it has the "LaMont steam boiler" installed. The article is very dynamic throughout with possibilities but avoids making any statements of fact.
This reminds me of the many glowing and credible steam system application photos of vehicles that Controlled Steam Dynamics, Thermodynamics Systems International, Sonel and Arizona Patent Investors released to the press. They were, in fact, simply potential applications and perhaps never even had their IC engines steam cleaned.
The next thing to do is to track down the descendants of Frank Bellanca and see if they remember anything about this episode.

Karl Petersen

Hi George,
We have no fittings inside of the combustion chamber. They will unscrew in a fire.Our tubing is one piece from the cylinder coil to the head of the engine. We operate at up to 1350f without any burn out problems. Of course you have to use the right tubing in the superheat section.
We have another new sponsor Zip Sensors they do a superior job as we need a fast response time from our K probe thermocouples. This also maintains a very positive temperature control of the heat exchanger. The response time is very fast. I would recommend them highly.
Harry

Harry
I can't find the reference to fittings in the combustion chamber. What question are you answering?

I believe he mistakenly replied to the wrong topic. done it myself more than once. See bottom of this page:

[www.steamautomobile.com]

Regards,

Ken



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2013 01:39PM by frustrated.

Ken,
Thank you for pointing out that my post on Swagelock fittings was on another thread, I did not state that they were in the combustion chamber, my memory of this learning proess could be wrong--it happens at 76! George

Hi Guys
Sorry for the misplaced post...I get up and down a lot..probably running a WHE engine. But you got it.
Harry

I deleted some recent posts on this topic, they are not recoverable.

Is the Team Steam web site being maintained? I don't see any news later than Dec 4th of last year. [www.uslandsteamrecord.com]

Just checking to see if this site is still active

Hi Kat
Been very busy and did not have time to post.
I only know that we are making a lot of headway. There will be some new stuff comming up on the Team Steam site shortly. I will however always try to answer a question.
Thanks
Harry

Hi harry....looking forward To new news on lsr car...its been so long since any updates...so will welcome any news of any kind....hope all is well..KAT

All files from this thread

File Name	File Size		Posted by	Date
LSR new.jpg	26.3 KB	open | download	HLS	06/07/2012	Read message
photo.jpg	22.7 KB	open | download	HLS	06/07/2012	Read message
New LSR body.jpg	364.7 KB	open | download	HLS	07/17/2012	Read message
drag3.JPG	248.4 KB	open | download	HLS	07/17/2012	Read message
DRAGSTER FRAME.jpg	164.5 KB	open | download	HLS	07/17/2012	Read message
new LSR nelson chassis.jpg	520 KB	open | download	HLS	07/21/2012	Read message
LSR car.jpg	109.1 KB	open | download	HLS	11/27/2012	Read message
photo1.jpg	822.2 KB	open | download	HLS	11/28/2012	Read message
RacecarTeamSteamUSA-1.jpg	109.9 KB	open | download	Karl Petersen	02/05/2013	Read message
RacecarTeamSteamUSA-2.jpg	107.8 KB	open | download	Karl Petersen	02/05/2013	Read message
RacecarTeamSteamUSA-3.jpg	110.5 KB	open | download	Karl Petersen	02/05/2013	Read message
RacecarTeamSteamUSA-4.jpg	129.3 KB	open | download	Karl Petersen	02/05/2013	Read message
scan0001.jpg	787.8 KB	open | download	HLS	04/09/2013	Read message
Landing Craft..jpg	182.2 KB	open | download	Rolly	04/15/2013	Read message
GG MOM finished.jpg	140.4 KB	open | download	HLS	04/15/2013	Read message
LSR Dyno.jpg	428.5 KB	open | download	HLS	05/22/2013	Read message