Throttle design

I can't seem to find any details on the construction of throttles for steam engines. Are these generally simple, linear (10% opening = 10% steam) or can I expect something that releases progressively more steam are the throttle is opened?

Thanks,

Jim

There are almost as many throttle designs as there are steam engine types. The better ones use poppets to insure tightness when closed but do not do the throttling with them as valve and seat wear can be serious.
The Stanley throttle has a hollow sleeve below the poppet. This sleeve has a hole which aligns with the outlet port when the valve is fully open. The poppet must be lifted some distance before the hole begins to pass steam, thus preventing wear of the poppet or its seat. Many Stanley owners have filed a pointed notch in that part of the hole which opens first so a gradual start is facilitated.

David & James,
Doble throttles were precisely the same design as the Stanley throttle, only now we use Stellite facing on the poppet valve and the seat.
Take a very close look at the late White throttle, very easy to bump off the seat and extremely nice control from creeping along to wide open.
Jim

Jim Crank wrote:
>
> David & James,
> Doble throttles were precisely the same design as the Stanley
> throttle, only now we use Stellite facing on the poppet valve
> and the seat.
> Take a very close look at the late White throttle, very easy
> to bump off the seat and extremely nice control from creeping
> along to wide open.
> Jim


Jim,

Would it be possible to guide us to a drawing of the late White throttle?

tw

I found some pressure regulator type controles. These were in books on power plant maintaince if I remebr corectly. I don't think these were ever used on automobiles. It's many years and I don't rember much on their design except there were simular to adjustable air pressure regulators in operation.

Andy

Terry,
The White throttle can be found in the "Encyclopedia of Automotive Engineering" Vol 2, 1912 edition, a very nice cutaway illustration. Also Light Steam Power sells blueprints of it , or at least used to do so.
If we could attach scanned photos to this web site, I could send it with this e-mail. AHEM, HINT.
Jim

Jim Crank wrote:
>
> Terry,
> The White throttle can be found in the "Encyclopedia of
> Automotive Engineering" Vol 2, 1912 edition, a very nice
> cutaway illustration. Also Light Steam Power sells blueprints
> of it , or at least used to do so.
> If we could attach scanned photos to this web site, I could
> send it with this e-mail. AHEM, HINT.
> Jim


Jim,

Well, if you emailed it to me, I could post it on my heavysteamer.com website. (If I don't screw up)

Terry

Jim wrote:
"If we could attach scanned photos to this web site, I could send it with this e-mail. AHEM, HINT."

Well If you would bother to pay attention and respond to the few posts I have started this matter would be a done deal by now.

<a href="[www.steamautomobile.com];
Forum Changes in the near future... </a>


<a href="[www.steamautomobile.com] />


<a href="[63.249.168.191] Feedback</a>


Scott Finegan

I have posted some pdf's there and linked to them from this forum.

[www.steamautomobile.com]

Was posted there as a test a while back.

Can't get a link for scotts cat.jpg though you can get a link to his thread:

[www.steamautomobile.com]

Andy

Scott,
I tried to get it to work about six times, and it would not accept anything. Could it be that a Mac won't work and a PC will?
Jim

Scott
It looks good
When is the switch
Rolly

Hi Jim

I tried it with a PowerBook G4 OS 9.x Latest update. Didn't try with OS X. Can do that is you wont.

Using InternetExplorer 5. Every thing works except I need to get acrobat reader plugin into brawser to view the .pdf attachments. I know it is there some were, I don't use the MAC much. I kinda avoid it. I prefer windows. MAC is behind in a lot of ways now. The development tools are way behind what is available for windows. Have CodeWarer for MAC and PC. It sucks bigtime against MS Visual Studio or Borland Builder. Borland is by far the best but it is not compatable with Visual Studio when calling C++ methods. The call linkage is differant. The this parameters is passed diferently. Borland followed the C++ standard. MS uses a nonstandard method. It is more efficient.

Any the new forum works with my MAC just fine.

Andy

Andy,
I won't use OS-X on the advice of my computer guru, he says it is full of bugs and since this contraption is only used as a smart tripewriter, it's all I want.
It's a PowerMAC 450 with added memory and does just fine for what I use it for. I just won't spend the time learning hundreds of programs, no need for them. Just Microsoft Word 98 for writing and Netscape for the rest.
Actually, I hate the things.
Jim

Hi Jim

I got a fellow programer here to try to access the new forum. He uses NetScape. He had no problem. Though he was running OS-X at the time. Will try again later with OS 9 when he gets a chance. OS-X is working just fine here. Been using it from bata on some machines. It is much more stable then OS 9. The only problem we have is with one G4 PowerBook that the network card was replaced on. A power serge toke the origional internal one out. The one maintaince got us not aproved for OS-X. His machine has been crashing 2 or 3 times a day when connected to the network.

I wouldn't have a MAC. The PowerBook I have is a company computer. I have not used OS-X at all. It might be OK. But OS-9 is way behind Window's. On Windows there is a usable help system. Have never needed a manual for any Window's certified program. Programs all have a consistant look and feel. As a developer I can tell you that MicroSoft is very interested in having all programs have that consistant look and feel. The Windows's devoloper SDK has it all documented. There are a lot of things that you must do to get that little Windows symbol on your box. That Window's symbol you see on SoftWare products means that it has the MicroSoft Window's certification. Of course there uncertified programs for Window's. I got one. Pro/Engineer took me a week before I even begin to understand how to use it to create parts. It's a very high end CAD program. I am still having a hard time geting parts to oriant corectly in assemblies. Havn't gotten to any of the more advanced modules that doe mechinical analysis. It has mechinical, stress, and thermal analysis in the Pro/Mechanica part.

Anyway this should be on the new forum thread.

David -

I found the following website, which shows the Stanley throttle, as well as the entire Stanley 735 system. This is a colored diagram with html links to other sections showing photographs and line drawings of the throttle. Thanks for the advice.

[www.stanleymotorcarriage.com]



Jim Crank -

Haven't found anything on the White or Doble yet. Seeking interlibrary loan from my local library on the Encyclopedia of Automotive Engineering, 1912.

Thanks,

Jim

Reprints of some White stuff, as well as a lot of Stanley stuff, are available from SACA Stores. One can get good illustrations in many of them.

Gentlemen,
A very good cutaway of the White throttle is in the White instruction book.
SACA stores, #142, "Instruction Book for The Model 0 and 00"
It is still the best throttle for a steam car as far as I am concerned.
Jim

[www.angelfire.com]

Kinda scrolly, but lots of detail, at least when viewed on a PC. Viewing it with WebTV, the picture is resized to eliminate scrolling, but that plus NTSC "monitor" resolution = hard to read text and indistinct image quality. I am considering redoing this page to eliminate scrolling for PC and give better viewing for WebTV.

Peter

Peter thanks
I had no problem opining and printing the page. Clear and sharp.
Rolly

Peter,
Came up perfectly on my Mac. This is the illustration in the White owners manual.
Jim

Glad you liked it, guys. Yep, it's from the 1909 Model M/O Instruction Manual, available from the SACA Storeroom elsewhere on this website. Book highly recommended to anyone interested in steam; informative and inspirational. Think this teaser scan will rake in the sales for the Club?

Yes, the White throttle is an excellent design. Might be tricky to duplicate in most home shops, though.

Did you have to scroll around to see all of the throttle file? I had to on the PC I viewed it on. Might just be the browser I was using.

Speaking of scrolling around, check out the new additions at

[www.angelfire.com]

Finally added the promised scans and digital pictures. Everything you ever wanted to know about that mockup, and then some. Page also shows the first very modest piece of the actual powerplant which has been completed (the pump frame).

Peter

Peter,
The operating description in the White Owners Manual is quite precise and accuate as to how the throttle works. Believe what they say.
The really tricky part is that actuating thread. However, it can be a ground thread and some have already been made recently.
Just remember that the initial throttling is done by what looks to be a straight section right after the tip. It is not straight; but has a very slight taper.
This part is best made on a CNC lathe/grinder. The sealing seat is that cone section right after the slight taper section.
Light Steam Power did/does have blueprints of the White throttle for sale.
Jim

Hi Jim,

I believe it. That very nonstandard multiple (?) fast thread is exactly what I was wondering about, but the invisible taper next to it is a question mark too; thanks for the info. For an expert machinist with a well-equipped shop, definitely the throttle of choice. For me, hmm. Good to know that plans are available for this too. I wonder why Doble didn't adopt this type of throttle, with his love of excellent over-the-top design features? Maybe White's patents were still in force and unavailable/too expensive for licensing.

>The sealing seat is that cone section right >after the slight taper section

Do you mean the tip of the valve, above the tapered section in the drawing, or the coney shoulder below the tapered section in the drawing? Just to clarify. I got the impression from the book description that the lower section in the drawing is where it seals.

White seemed to have loved precision-tapered needle valves and grooves; there are several in his powerplant. The tricky precision manufacturing needed was probably better protection against knock-offs than a whole army of patent attorneys. With the right production setup, of course, they could be pumped out like pancakes, and they're simpler and more compact than the calibrated-cam devices which would otherwise be needed to do the same job. On the downside, the difficulty of making replacements may be part of the reason why relatively few Whites have survived.

Thanks for the mention of stellite seats and valves for Stanley/Doble type throttles. Do these eliminate the wear/leakage problem, or do the stellite seal faces eventually wear/leak too? I wonder if some newer materials like technical ceramic or diamond coatings might be worth a look in this department. Stellite it is, unless something better turns up.

Would current-production "hard" valve seats and valves for unleaded gas cars seal acceptably in a Stanley/Doble type throttle?

As a semi-humorous aside, another option is the Cruban bypass-type throttle. Use cheap leaky materials, and just pass the eventual leakage to the condenser instead of letting the car "ramble". At least that will keep the feed water tank warm! A great option for those who enjoy grinding valves. Heh, that's too cheap & wasteful for even me to consider.

Peter

I have been trying to locate the pressure regulating type valve I saw a long time ago. I rember it because it was discribed to have low ware as the valve was full open or closed.

As for the White throttle I see no reason that you would have to have thoes threads. Why wouldn't just a shaft going into the same valve set up do just as well. The shaft could be moved in several ways. What I am saying is why could one just have a shaft with same tapered configuration on it's end. Were the threaded lift deally is you just have a packing gland. You could have a radial ramp on the back end and an roller that moved teh shaft in and out for instance. You might all so be able to get a roler shaft for a mill and use it. The main thing about that valve is the taper and the seats. Thoes wouldn't be all that hard to do on a lathe.

I am thinking about a simular deal on my engine. The valve is built into the heads though. Just a tapered shaft that can be screwed in and out. It sets just in front of the engine valves which are electronicly controled. No need for the throttle to completly close off as the engine valves will do that. I plane to have a safty valve on the maine line to the engine. After the mishap with the green monster at Danville I realize that one needs to be able shut down the engine in more then one way. Their throttle stuck wide open. If they hadn't had a valve on the boiler they might not have been so lucky.

Andy

Hi Andy,

Sounds workable to me. The auxiliary shutoff valve should work on a regular basis so it dows not stick when it is needed. If it just sits there under steam for years and years, it could corrode or crud into place. Same thing for safety popoff valves.

------------

While we're on the topic of throttles, I went crazy with the scanner again and put the only picture I could find of the Stanley throttle's innards on a web page:

[www.angelfire.com]

I have to scroll around on the PC to see this whole thing too, but that may just be my browser. Picture quality is nowhere near as good as the White throttle picture, as this is a blowup of a very tiny illustration from the 1918 "Complete Description of the Stanley Steam Car". Just barely useful for comparison purposes.

This looks like the poppet sealing part of the throttle is a ball valve. Is it? If so, is the ball attached to the valve rod with the sleeve? Or is it simply a loose ball that is lifted by the end of the valve rod?

Whether the Stanley throttle is built this way or not, maybe a loose ball could be used, and then a technical ceramic ball, like titanium nitride, off the shelf, would be possible, possibly with 3 or more guide rails/fins surrounding & locating it. Not sure about how to do a suitable-sized technical ceramic valve seat to match.

------------------

Jim: On stellite throttles, are these solid stellite, or just stellite-faced? Seems like the poppet and seat would be small enough that solid stellite might be acceptable. Know any good sources for stellite?

Peter

Oops. Disregard my Stanley throttle page. Somehow I missed Jim Deitrick's post above with the link to the stanleymotorcarriage.com page. Duh. The Stanley throttle page on that website gives all the info anyone could possibly want about Stanley throttles, short of dimensioned blueprints. And even there, the drawing provided could be easily scaled to get a close working copy. It also answered all my Stanley throttle questions before I even asked them: The sealing poppet is not a ball, and it is unitary with the throttle shaft.

To quote Emily Litella, "never mind".

Thanks for the excellent link, Jim. That is a really spectacular new (only about a month old) steam car website. This will be fun to explore. I gotta add a link to this on my links page. What a treasure. Hats off to Robert Wilhelm for a top-notch pagebuilding and websitebuilding job.

Don't overlook this one the way I did:

[www.stanleymotorcarriage.com]

Scroll down to find the throttle page link listed in the left margin menu. Home page link is there too.

Peter

Threads or by any other mechanical advantage means is necessary to retain and seat a throttle valve. At 400 psi on the boiler, while in a hurry siphoning water, I accidentally unscrewed my steam siphon steam supply valve stem beyond it's 5/16" n.c. threads. While fighting a blast of hot steam, it took over 125 pounds of my physical force to push the valve stem back into the valve. I don't want to make that mistake again. With White running up to twice that operating steam pressure, I would want real "strong threads" holding my White throttle stem in place.

Good point about the White operating at higher pressures than the average Stanley. The 40HP White car on the dyno used 488#/hr steam that was passed thru the throttle valve at high pressure---I wonder if anyone has used this small throttle on a Stanley that may be passing 1000+#/hr going up a hill at lower pressure(50HP). The steam velocity going thru it at higher mass flow rates and higher specific volume of steam in this Stanley case could create a lot of flow resistance due to very high steam velocity thru this White throttle----anybody ever tried this?
Happy Labor Day Weekend, George

I did not mean to indicate that it would not be retained in position by some means. It does. But there many ways to do so. And they do not have to be inside the valve as in the white. Though what ever mechanism is used it will have to be able to hold the force of the steam on the valve. Ine could balance the valve with steam in some as well.

The point is that it is the taper on the White valve that gives it such good controle. Use that part of it.

Andy

Hears what happens when you open the throttle all the way.

[ourworld.cs.com]

Rolly

All files from this thread

File Name	File Size		Posted by	Date
white throttle web.jpg	73.5 KB	open | download	Kevin Harpham	09/02/2005	Read message
1920 Stanley.jpg	269.1 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/03/2009	Read message
drw-a.jpg	119.1 KB	open | download	Rolly	01/03/2009	Read message
Notched Vee valve 001.jpg	280.7 KB	open | download	Caleb Ramsby	01/05/2009	Read message