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Lamont boiler

Posted by dullfig 
Re: Lamont boiler
July 09, 2011 08:33AM
I see i need to sit down and do alot of reading to get myself to a point where i can calculate things out to build a lamont capable of producing 10 bhp. But it seems the lamont can pack alot of energy into a small light weight package, which holds my interest in useing this type generator for my steam project. One of my main questions is, how do you figure out the maximum operating pressure of the boiler when useing type K copper tube? I see the pressure rating on the tube for 100 deg but how do you calculate it for 500 deg? The other question is what is the safest way to couple the tube to the drum? flare fittings?
Re: Lamont boiler
July 09, 2011 03:01PM
With MathCad I have analyzed Rankine cycles having various expansion ratios, with varing amount of recompression from none to full inlet pressure and found that the efficience doesn't vary much over the trottled power band as long as you don't throttle down to the point that you are over compressing. The power range analysis is run over a throttled range with set clearance, cutoff and compression to inlet pressure. The exhaust close changed to get compression to inlet pressure.

This cycle exibits a fairly constant efficiency over the power range as described. The efficiency was basicly set by the expansion ratio deturmind by the cutoff point. The efficiency variation occure at the vary ends of the power range. Being slitely lower at max power and slightly higher at the full exexpansion point. Though the thottling analysis has constant enthalpy, not temperature, at the inlet with varing pressure this some what, agrees, with Jerry's analysis that pressure is not a primary parameter of efficiency. But what Jerry missed is pressures effect on the power range. The higher the pressure the more power range you have with a spicific cutoff setting. Efficiency power range can have quite an effect on overall vehical efficiency.

To get to the point in that analysis I found that pressure and temperature are the primary parameters effecting potential efficiency. Expansion ratio is really the main deturminig factor of engine efficiency. But expansion ratio is limited by pressure and temperature. While in a throttled engine, power range is limited by pressure and expansion ratio. The lower end of the efficient power range is when expansion is to exhaust pressure. So the higher the expansion ratio the shorter the power range.

Now an engine could be managed by a micro processor to provide power at the best efficiency but the steam temperature and pressure would have to be fairly consistant. A micro process could possably manage the boiler, providing control look ahead from the engine conditions and throttle input.

What I am looking for in consistant output is ability of micro processor , from say steaming rate etc..., be able to predict the steam properties going to the engine.

The algorithms I would be using for tracking and projecting future states would be a least squares fit to a sat of data points simpled over time eleminating those that are to far off. Same algorithm I used for tracking position/location on objects from (clisified)... while working at Fort Hunter Liggett CDEC. Only in this case Bad data can mean a component failure. In the origional algorithm bad (out of ramge data sets) were caused by reflections of signals to would make for distant data way out of possabilities for a target. In a steam generator control you might get a few bad data from vibration, but a consistant bad set here would indicate something wrong and would be signiled to operator. A least squares fit can be done with most any equation not just the linear equations some of you might know from spread sheets. We used qubic equations at CDEC. A qubic fit is ideal for control applications where you wont to keep change to a minum, for you can get the rate of change and wether you are aproaching a stable point or moving away from it. Looking at the first and second order derivatives. If their signs are the same it is moving away from a stable point. If their signs are different it is aproaching a stable point. And of course the actual data tells you if it's the point you wont. I was think of the White aproach where firing rate is controled by temperature and pump rate by pressure. But a lot smarter as the least squares fit has short term predictability and combined with longer term demand predictability from engine parameters, speed and accelerator input.

So with background above any input on wether a stand pipe seperator with a fixed length protected superheater would be more consistant than say a steam generator based on the S.E.S where sections are divied so as to have a protected superheater section. A different algorithm then described above would be used in a water level controled stand pipe.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 09, 2011 05:52PM
Copper tubing is not rated for fired pressure vessels.
You should be looking at seamless steel tubing low carbon. 4130 aircraft tubing would be a good choice. Its not on the ASTM list for boilers but close to some of then in alloy for superheaters. The Lamont coil can take a beating. See the list of approved material. Also A-106 pipe is approved.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 09:12AM
Ive been thinking about a pump again, still going with an opposed cylinder scotch yolk design, but have the crank run in an encasement that is filled with a lite oil and having the crankshaft sealed with a typical hydrolic pump shaft seal. I dont think this would be too hard to build for anyone having a small lathe. I think this may work, anyone see anything wrong with my thinking?
Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 11:55AM

We have used 4130 for the hot end of Doble steam generators for years because of hydrogen embrittlement of SS when people thought that was the best.
BuT; fully annealed or it is hell to wind. Other than that, low carbon seamless tubing like 1018 or similar for the bottom end. They last with use for over 30 years.

Why build what you can so easily buy?? The three cylinder CAT pump with the ring seal friction operated valves works so well that there just is no need to make the pump, cheap too.
A 10 hp Lamont is a small one and CAT has good pumps in the size. Try an automotive air conditioner electric clutch run off the water level sensor, simple as possible, since all you want to do is maintain the water level in the drum or large outer coil.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 12:42PM
Dear Jim
Glad to see your back. I hope all is well.
Yes there are a lot of components off the shelf that can be used. Then again some of us still want to build and fabricate our own stuff. Still fun.
Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 12:48PM
Jim, would the CAT pump work for the circulator pump? And where would i find information on them? Im going to google it now....
Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 02:27PM

No, you want high volume flow at low actual pressure for the Lamont pump. The feed pump is high pressure and enough flow rate plus 20% or so to keep the thing running at top evaporation rate no matter what the load.
Go to Google and put in CAT Pumps and look. Loads of dealers.

Try 10 hp @ 25 lbs/hp/hr, just to be safe, equals 250 pounds per hour. Go size the pump with that and add in a 20% fudge factor. It still is a small pump in gallons per minute at that rate.
There are tons of good sound reasons to use the Lamont. Good reserve, half the heating surface for the same horsepower than a normally fired monotube, the world's simplest control system like a fire tube, safe from burnout like a monotube, capable of huge overfire with safety. What else can one want???

A most learned engineering professor and Bill Besler too, told me a thing long ago. "Never build what you can buy no matter what, they do a better job in less time than you ever would take and at 20% of the cost too."


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2011 02:32PM by Jim Crank.
Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 02:54PM
Jim, you have never struck me as the type of man who always did what they were told! HA!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist, needed a bit of humor for the day.

Caleb Ramsby
Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 05:22PM

Only if my instincts said they were right. Many high level arguments in college with one engineering professor who said no one ever made a reciprocating engine with a better water rate than 20 pounds. I said he was nuts in class and if he wanted to go with me, I would take him the plant and show him two that did 10-12 pound. Into the Dean's office who fortunately knew Bill Besler socially.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 06:48PM
Wally Woods Rules of Drawing apply to engineering as well:

"Never draw what you can copy"
"Never copy what you can trace"
"Never trace what you can cut out and paste down"
Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 08:18PM
Speaking of art, when I was in school my art teacher told us to all draw "our idea" of Peter Pan. I hurridly produced mine the night before it was due and it was a horrible drawing, very crude and it only represented 1/10 of my ability, if that, I got a B+. Virtually everyone else in the class got an F or a D even though they put a lot more effort and time into their projects and they looked much better, simply because they traced or copied an illustration of Peter Pan.

As is often said "Engineering is a series of compromises.".

Using an existing part for a project will, sometimes greatly and other times minutely, limit or modify what the total package is capable of. Exactly how many off the shelf parts went into the White, Stanley, Doble or Cyclone boiler/engine/pumping systems? As far as I know none(maybe some on the Cyclone that I don't know of), they were all designed to do exactly what they were required to do and with the space and weight limitations put upon them. However they were all intended to be production units and were produced by groups of people with a significant financial backing. Then there is the opposite, such as the late John Wetz, who wrote a few articles regarding the manufacture of pumps, valves etc. from not much more then basic plumbing bits, sadly he was often laughed at and his ideas were often literally spoken of as a waste of time, but he did produce things that ran on a very small budget(such as a complete system for what a new CAT pump costs) and had a great time doing so.

I believe that it all comes down to what people are willing to put their time into and what their abilities and capacities are. Not everyone has a mountain of cash to burn and not everyone has the genius that is require to produce a pump from not much more then plumbing bits and very, very few have both!

Two extreme examples would be Chuk and Rolly, Chuk takes existing things and forms them into an operational unit, Rolly makes almost everything from scratch, BOTH of them have produced running steam cars and both of them have greatly enjoyed themselves in doing so.

It all comes down to what one is willing to spend their time and money doing and what they are capable of doing in general.

Caleb Ramsby
Re: Lamont boiler
July 14, 2011 10:46PM
Caleb, thanks for your last post it was exactly what i was thinking of saying but was afraid i might offend some one.
The whole point of trying to build a pump rather than buy one is like Caleb said, not all of us have a ton of money to buy a pump, and trying to convince the wife to let you spend the money on something that is basically a "toy" in her eyes, is even harder. Coming up with a simple pump design that one can build at home may encourage more people to attempt a build of this system.
On another note, many wonderful things have come about from trial and error, did they work perfectly the first time? not always, if at all. But with out trial and error we would be stuck crunching numbers forever saying well what if.......
What if you cant get a part that is no longer available for something that has no value but you hold deep in your heart? Do you just leave it broken? Throw it away? No! You find a way to make it work! here is a couple of videos I made to inspire a gentleman who was trying to come up with a part for a 1932 delta scroll saw. The part was origonally a die cast zinc part and he had no way to machine one or a die to cast it in. So what to do? Keep in mind I was trying to do this with things a wood worker would have around the house and not be real fancy. Yes I did use my lathe a bit but he has a wood lathe and would have managed with it. I was also sick as a dog when I did it so excuse the sniffles..
Re: Lamont boiler
July 15, 2011 12:08AM
Hey Dflowers,

I assume that I have offended, on average, at least one person with every post that I have placed on the internet! HA!

How is your 1/2 scale Stanely engine coming along?

You may want to look up Sir Hiram Maxim's boiler as used in his aircraft.

It was an "assisted" natural circulation type. Having many small diameter copper tubes connecting two relatively small horizontal bottom mud drums, with one larger horizontal steam/water seperation drum.

The downcomer had the feed water enter it through a nozzle which was regulated by a spring to keep the nozzle shut enough to keep the feed water entering the downcomer(in a downward angle) at a higher pressure then the boiler presusre. Thusly the feed water upon entering the boiler is given a very great velocity and it induces a significant flow. He also addapted this invention to refrigeration. I believe that for the boiler he used a pressure differential of 30 psi, for other experiments he used a greater pressure.

The advantage of this design is that there is a natural circulation when firing up and as long as the water feed rate and firing rate are more or less in unison then there is always significant circulation. Also the feed pump(s) are used to supply the circulation energy for the boiler. Ken showed that there were some other boilers made like this that used a fixed size nozzle which would give a higher circulation rate for higher feed rates, if the feed rate is in tune with the firing rate then all should be OK.

Just something to consider.

Caleb Ramsby
Re: Lamont boiler
July 15, 2011 08:06AM
Nicely done video.
Chuk Williams is a master at lost wax castings, on my last visit he showed me how his vacuum system worked to degas the casting mix. I have only made a few parts cast in lost wax system. Mostly for the fine detail that can be achieved and the duplication if a rubber mold is used to produce the wax parts to form a tree.
I make my molds, but have them cast; thankfully I still have access to many good foundries.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 15, 2011 09:18AM
I usually use a vaccum pump to degas my investment but i decided not to do it in the video as most people do not have a vaccum pump laying around and i wanted to show an alternitive way to get er done. I would highly recommend to vaccum a part with fine detail for sure but for something like this part you can get away with not vaccuming. I really enjoy being able to cast my own parts. I have started making aluminum molds for injecting wax into for investment casting but my little wax pot does not develope enough pressure for parts with a cross section thicker than a 1/4". Thicker than that i get have shrinkage issues. So right now im working on building a wax injection machine to be able to do much larger parts and hope to be able to do stuff as thick as 1/2".

Rolly, if you know of a foundry that can and will do thin walled ductile iron castings for engine cylinders please let me know who it is. I have heard that most foundrys will not do a one off part and that they have trouble casting thin walled cylinders with out getting blow holes.

Caleb, I havent had time to work on the stanley lately. got tide up dealing with some crap life sent my way and am just now gettings things back together. I may do a side step from the stanley for a bit and build a different engine useing the crank and rods from a 70 hp johnson out board motor. It would be a uniflow design with poppet valves, full roller, with forced lubrication. I have several of these motors laying around from when i was playing with my sst 60 and it would be faster to build an engine useing parts (crank, rods, bearings) from one of them than building the stanly right now. So when i have the time im going to crack one open and measure it up. I used to have a business where all i did was rebuild and repair outboard motors so thier nothing new to me.
Re: Lamont boiler
July 15, 2011 09:58AM
Cumberland Foundry in Rhode Island 401-255-5247
Has cast one off pieces for me, some as thin as 1/8 inch. They do like patterns on match plates but have done some loose stuff for me. Takes longer as not two many can cut a pattern in.
Perkins Foundry in Bridgewater Mass 508-697-6978 also can do anything from one ounce to 10,000 Lb. beautiful work as well but much harder to get a small piece done unless there are lots of them.
Re: Lamont boiler
July 15, 2011 06:56PM
Hey Dflowers,

My advice, which you didn't ask for, is to stick with the scale Stanley engine, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, if you make the Stanley engine as a duplicate of the original then it WILL work from the get go! If you study the Stephenson valve gear you could modify it to operate with a shorter cutoff if desired, but that would make it operate not so well when in longer cutoff.

Secondly, almost every single acting cam operated poppet valved engine that I have studied has had a great deal of birthing pains. There are a lot of hidden issues that don't always crop up until it is run with hot steam, then one is required to add other mechanisms and/or modify the existing ones to get it running right. From a part count, to displacement, to weight, to rpm, to pressure I still believe that the double acting engine has it all over the single acting engine and I don't believe that there is anything that a single acting engine can do that a double acting engine can't do better!

Please don't take this rant the wrong way, build what you will, just stating it how I see it.

Caleb Ramsby
Re: Lamont boiler
July 15, 2011 07:26PM
One reason the Stanley is critised as much as it is,,,,is that in nearly 100 years,,we NOW know all [well almost all ] its failings,,
Long or short cutoff,,The dog length can be changed,,or just put more notches,,My racer has 17 notches,,8 each way,,+ the company notch,,,This is a piston valve engine,,but the timing is simmilar I think,,
Fouth notch from full gear is comfortable,,
There are plenty of 2ana half X 3ana half Mason and other small engines available, ,,unless you want the fun of doing it yourself,,,,,
I totally agree on 2cyl,,double acting simple w/ superheat,, They work good,,and were chosen when there was a great number of people familiar with steam,on a daily basis,,Cheers,,Ben
Re: Lamont boiler
July 15, 2011 09:03PM
LOL ill comment tomorrow when im sober, I have nothing against the stanley design.........
Re: Lamont boiler
July 21, 2011 07:35PM
One thing that occurred to me as I was pondering the seals and bearing requirements for a marine Lamont boiler pump for 250 psi steam is that one could cool the bearings and seal by pressure lubricating same with water from the boiler feed pump. On a marine system, the hotwell provides a ready source of 100-150F water; a 30 or 40 psi pressure drop across a check in the pump discharge would insure an ample supply of water at above boiler water pressure but at a far cooler temperature.

With such cooling and lubrication, it would seem practical to use PFTE composite bearings. The bearings could resist any heat soak conditions after shutdown, but would normally operate at a reasonable temperature.

Filtering abrasive contaminants from the pump lubrication water feed could also greatly reduce bearing and seal wear in the circulation pump.

- Bart

Bart Smaalders

Bart Smaalders [smaalders.net]
Re: Lamont boiler
July 21, 2011 08:22PM
With such cooling and lubrication, it would seem practical to use PFTE composite bearings. The bearings could resist any heat soak conditions after shutdown, but would normally operate at a reasonable temperature.

Did a quick search here's what came up


The biggest problem accociated with the LaMont circulation pump, is seal friction and the pressure rating needs to be 1000psi


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 08:24PM by Jeremy Holmes.
Re: Lamont boiler
July 21, 2011 08:28PM
That is exactly what I do with mine. It’s built to have the feed water cycle through and around the seal. I use Graphialloy bearings good for 1000F no lubrication. The seal is a lip seal of graphite reinforced PTFE its been tester up to 1000 PSI. PTFE in most places is stated to be good for 600F but I have found other test reports that in an oxygen free environment its good up to 2500F. In either case it should never reach 300F in my pump.
The bearings and seals are in an Invar-36 core inside the pump body. Invar has almost no expansion up to 600F.
The housing has been tested up to 4000PSI. The ¼ inch taped IPS hole on the top is the outlet for the feed water.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 21, 2011 09:17PM
After that last post I think I need to go hang out in Rolly's shop for a few years. Rolly, what is that casting made from? kinda looks like aluminum but hard to say when viewing on the computer.
Hmm, no that surface finish screams fresh cast Iron.... Hope im right smiling smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 09:43PM by DFlowers.
Re: Lamont boiler
July 21, 2011 09:59PM
Ductile iron 85-55-06
This is an old topic it’s been up before. I posted all about this pump four or five years ago.
I think before I built the Stanley EX. Search the site. I tested the output at eight gal per minutes at 9 psi good for 750 lb/hr at five times the evaporation rate.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 22, 2011 02:07PM

Don't get all worked up about Lamont pumps. Mechanical seals went out forty years ago, they leak and the friction is not nice.
Maybe a carbon spring loaded face seal; but this too is not optimum.
Work on a strong casing for the pump itself and graft on a non magnetic SS tube that contains the rotor of an induction motor, the field coils go on the outside. From a housing strength aspect, a long thin rotor would be nicer than a short fat one. Possibly a SS weldment all the way. Insulate it for heat containment.
A cheap DC to AC three phase converter powers the motor. Look at 400 cycle motor parts, more power for the size.
Use commercially available water lubed ceramic ball bearings and forget about it.
Use care with the pump inlet to avoid flashing with hot water, although this just may not be a problem. Car water pump designs are great to copy. Smooth and large inlet with no burrs or sharp bends, straight in.

Five to eight times the maximum evaporation rate and for piece of mind, design the housing for at least twice the operating pressure.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 22, 2011 08:12PM
Rolly, Have you put this pump design into service yet, and if so how is it holding up. Very nice casting work, Was this done by the foundry you recomended? I had ruled out going to a cintrifugal type pump due to sealing, but it looks like you have over come the problems accociated with one. You got my gears spinning now grinning smiley
Re: Lamont boiler
July 23, 2011 05:11AM
No, I first wanted to see how hard it would be to build a pump. I have not tested it on a steam boiler as yet. All other areas of the pump have been tested though. I could connect it to my boat boiler but it only goes to 300 psi. The car boiler will run at 600 but the tap holes are only ¼ pipe size. Two small for the pump.
I need to build a test rig and let it run 24-7 and keep raising the pressure till it fails or something lets go. But I’ve been busy with so many other projects I have had no time or ambition to work on it, as I have no project in need of it. You really should build the pump to fit the steam plant not the other way around. I was only interested in the experiment.

Yes Cumberland foundry in Rhode Island did the pour. I made up the patterns on a match plate and the core boxes, one of just a few that I did not gate my self. Another problem with foundry’s most want to do all there owe gates. I on most of my patterns put my own gates and in most cases they use them. I only had one foundry rip them off and change the location of the gate. I was pissed as I try to keep the gates in areas I will be machining.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 23, 2011 07:04AM
I've tried the seals which Rolly used, in a simple test rig.Static there were no leaks at 900psi A brief test but I ran the rig for an hour at 2000rpm at 600psi - no leakage at all. I also tested the load on a driving motor by measuring the amps needed at increasing pressure. There is an increase in drag which made me decide not to build a pump with a through shaft needing two seals but no end thrust but instead to go for a single seal and cope with the end load. Running the cooling feed water to the steam generator through the seal area should eliminate heat problems as the seals are rated fairly close to the likely water temperature in the Lamont circuit.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2011 07:07AM by Mike Clark.

Re: Lamont boiler
July 23, 2011 07:36AM
It’s been a while, how are you coming on your project.

There is another problem to conceder when you’re doing this kind of stuff. The core material the foundry uses? The material used at the iron foundry I use is not all that smooth. It’s more for making a hole you can machine.
My bronze foundry uses a material that is first cooked in an oven and is fairly smooth. As they know each other I can have the cores made at one foundry and the other will use them. Not the case most of the time. I found this out accidentlly when at the bronze foundry as they were making a bunch of cores for the iron foundry.
Some high-end cores are ceramic and very smooth. Talk to your foundry and see what material they use, ask if they can get or use other venders cores, or if there is an option.
Especially for inside pumps or ports in an engine that will be hard to clean up.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2011 07:47AM by Rolly.
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