Pusher locomotive for a bicycle

Hello Everyone,

I've been lurking for a while and have decided to post an idea of mine for suggestions. I'll preface though by saying that steam gives me goosebumps whenever I encounter it. There's something about it that gets me to the core (like bluegrass music...another passion).

Anyway, I recently moved to Mission BC. It's a very hilly town to say the least. I've been toying with an idea of a steam powered pusher locomotive that I could hook up to my mountain bike in the same manner as one would hook up a kiddie trailer. By doing this I would have an enormous degree of flexibility in the layout of an engine, drive coupling, steam generator etc. I already have an idea of how I would want the thing to look like - one of those old fashioned teardrop travel trailers. I am an aircraft structures maintenance engineer so building the thing from aluminum would be easy for me.

What I am completely uncertain of at this stage are the mechanics of the whole thing.

Firstly, should I even consider converting an IC engine or a compressor for the steam engine? Money is an issue here. If this is a practical route then any suggestion in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Secondly, I want to go with a mono tube generator for quick startup and safety. But they are harder to design and control. Should I be starting with a mono tube at all?

I don't really have any access to a lathe, but I'm pretty good on the tools otherwise.

Any help would be appreciated. By the way, I've read everything I can on the Cyclone engine...I'm quite excited about this.

Best Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan!

Thanks for registering, and welcome to the forum. I would love to help you out with all aspects of your idea, but I'm still not entirely clear upon what you're trying to make, and what the purpose is! Could you go a little bit more in detail as to what you want it to do? From there, I'm sure myself and others here on the forum would be more than happy to help you out with every mechanical detail there is to make it work.

However, I can answer a question for you now. Seeing that you do not have a lathe (or mill?) on hand, I think your only option would be to convert an existing internal combustion engine (or air compressor, depending on the size). While a newly-made steam engine would probably give you better performance, that does require a good amount of machining.

Looking forwards to hearing from you soon.

All the Best,
-Parker Brown

Thanks for the reply Parker!

What I have in mind is a steam bicycle, but with the power unit apart from the bicycle as a trailer. That way it can be hooked up to any bicycle just like a grocery or kiddie trailer. It would have two wheels like any small trailer that would be driven by the steam engine. The steam generator, fuel and water supply and everything else associated with the engine would be on the trailer. A throttle control cable would then clamp somewhere on the bicycle for the operator. Depending on how much the whole thing would eventually weigh, I would probably want brakes incorporated as well. (almost a certainty here in Mission).

I don't think I need a condenser - I'm sure I can carry enough water for an hour or so of steaming around town. So I'm looking for a simple design. But I also want a degree of elegance as well - nice looks and smooth quiet power. The idea is to turn others on to steam too!

I re-read my last post...guess I was a little vague. Hope this makes things a bit more clear.

Best Regards,

Alan

Alan,

And thank you for the clarification. I think I know exactly what you have in mind (it's certainly doable), and I would love to assist with the design. I'm especially excited that you've decided not to use a condenser; as much as I like a condensing system, this will allow the design to be completely free of water pumps. Instead, as it probably won't be a high-pressure system, a steam injector can be employed to pump sufficient water depending on steam demands.

Give me about a day or two to come up with something, and I'll present it to you when I'm finished. In the meantime, I'm sure that some other members here will probably give you a few pointers and tips (perhaps even full plans) to help you accomplish your goal.

Talk to you soon, and All the Best,
- Parker Brown



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2010 09:55PM by Parker Brown.

Thanks! I'm looking forward to your input. I think I like it here!

Best Regards,

Alan

Alan-

Just a quick update regarding my progress. I've been doing a great deal of mental work lately, and I think I'm getting somewhere! Here's my only concern; this is going to be really hard without any machining tools. A typical steam plant- automotive grade or not- typically consists almost entirely of machined parts.

However, despite this, I'm trying to make the design work. While the systems I design usually depend upon machined parts, I think we can still make this work using basic supplies. It may not perform or look as good- nor be as efficient- as a newly-built steam plant of a specific design, but it can still happen! I'll get back to you when I'm finished.

In the meantime, here's a few articles for you to read about internal combustion to steam conversions:

- Barrett VW Conversion Engine

- Converting a Lawnmower Engine to Steam

- Making a Steam Engine From a Lawn Mower Engine

Frankly, I know very little about engine conversions. But, they have been done, and it is possible. Sometimes (especially in the case of the Barrett steam car), it yields great results. In your case, as this will be a small unit, you may want to be on the lookout for a good lawnmower engine.

All the Best,
- Parker Brown



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2010 10:56AM by Parker Brown.

Thanks Parker. I've been looking at the Barret Steam car and the Lynx steam engine site already. I'm beginning to realize that what you are saying is true about needing to do some machining. I may bite the bullet and start looking for a small combination lathe/milling machine on Craigslist and such. But I would like to use as much off the shelf and scrounged items as I can (scavenged crank shaft for example).

Also, I'd like to fire the steam generator with wood pellets...

I'm in the process of sketching up some of my ideas and will post them when done.

So far, I haven't seen anyone try the separate 'pusher engine' concept with a bicycle - at least not with steam (and I've been looking pretty hard). I appreciate your interest in this.

Best Regards,

Alan

Hey Alan!

Thanks for your prompt response.

YES. Bite the bullet and purchase a combo lathe/mill. Sure, they may be somewhat on the expensive side, but they're an amazingly great investment. Or, if you have the time, you could go the Gingery route and build your own equipment.

You can certainly do it with foraged parts. Maybe not entirely for the engine, but definitely for the rest.

And wood pellets are definitely an option; I know there are a few people here on the forum with vast experience in biomass (I think Harry is one of them). Personally, I was going to suggest a liquid fuel burner. While you couldn't machine a Venturi (unless you purchased that combo lathe/mill), there's a part of me which would actually consider using a carburetor; perhaps even from the very lawnmower engine you use for the engine!

But anyways, I'll something completed for you soon. Just a lot of head-scratching and thinking to do (but man, is it fun!).

All the Best,
- Parker Brown



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2010 11:29AM by Parker Brown.

Huh,,,Guess you guys haven't seen the supersonigc mixing tube that Stanley used,,,,simple jet [plug with a drilled hole],[no taper],,aimed at the end of a tailpipe tube,,,some even had a small rad to keep the tube from falling in,These early cars are a lesson in what ya can get away with,,Roper used larger pellets,,,,,wood shoe heels from the common shoe trade on the local corner,,Oh,,,yes,,,,TALK to the guys with actual hands on w/ injectors,,,Rumor has it there is actually a Greek God of injectors,,haha,,,Ben

Converting a gas engine to steam is very easy, you need to make a new cylinder head either slide or piston valve with a rocker arm and link down to an eccentrics on the crankshaft.
But this is still only a single acting engine. You will also have to install a steam loop through the crankcase to evaporate the blow-by water and run high temperature oil or the blow by will turn the oil into mayonnaise. Another thing you should cut as many added ring into the piston to limit the blow by.
I think it would be easer to look on E-bay for a Stuart 4 or 5A engine. More then enough power. Short stroke and will give you high enough RPM.
Rolly

I'll check that out right away...thanks!

Best Regards,

Alan

Hi Alan,
Sounds like a fun project.
The fastest way to get on the road (though maybe not the 'best') would probably be a two cycle bash valve conversion.
[www.firedragon.com]
Here's a link to a steam moped done along those lines- [www.steamcar.net] It can also be found on YouTube.
I don't know how successful the project was, but Lynx Motors has done some work on biomass fired, small scale boilers.
[lynxsteamengines.com]
If you converted one of the 66 cc China motorized bicycle kits you would have most of the drive system already done, as they have a jack shaft and clutch.
[www.kingsmotorbikes.com]

Bash valves seem to work well, though longevity is likely an issue.
Chuck

EBAY AUCTION FOR A STUART 5A. THE LINK IS AT MY WEBSITE [steam.netfirms.com] ALSO, THE STEAM ENGINE PAGE COULD HAVE LINKS THAT WERE A HELP. [steam.netfirms.com] BEST REGARDS, EARL

Thanks to everyone so far! My mind is swimming...so many ideas to consider.

Of course, I'm looking for the inexpensive route - but I don't think that a bash valve conversion quite fits with the elegant picture I have in my mind. A proper steam engine does though, and not a single cylinder to boot. I want it to be self starting, quiet and smooth. The more I read the more complicated this is getting :-)

I guess the ideal engine might be (and I still don't know being the novice I am) a scaled down version of a Stanley or Doble...

I certainly do not have the budget to buy a Stuart or another ready made engine...so I'm getting closer and closer to the realization that I may have to build this sucker.

So...are there any plans out there for a uniflow, double acting, twin cylinder engine that puts out .5 to 1 hp? If not, can I take some existing plans and scale them down? Thanks again.

Best Regards,

Alan

Alan,

If you decide to go ahead and build this from scratch, that would probably be the best route to take. There's a good chance it *could* be cheaper (depending upon the type of engine and steam generator), and you'll probably get better performance and aesthetic to boot.

If I were you, I would probably scale down a Doble-style engine. While a Stanley is fantastic for it's sheer simplicity, I think a compound is always the best route to go. It will usually provide you with the best performance (especially on a smaller scale).

Now, whether you choose a single or double acting design can also have an effect on the cost. While not as thermally efficient as a double acting engine, a single acting pistons can be found in almost any automotive supply store. I have an equation somewhere for calculating the dimensions of the low pressure bore, but I can't for the life of me find out where it is. Once you get this equation and decide upon the bore of your high pressure cylinder, you can calculate the bore of the low pressure cylinder. While you may not find a piston that is the exact calculated bore, I'm sure one can be found within a general proximity of the estimated dimension.

Good luck! Like I've been promising, I'll give you a boatload of stuff soon... Just need to work out a bunch of other things at the same time.

All the Best,
- Parker Brown

Thanks Parker.

Best Regards,

Alan

Gary Hadden’s two cylinder double acting poppet valve uniflow engine is the easiest conventional engine to make I have ever seen. It was detailed in a recent Bulletin. He is in the process of making kits, and they are of a good size or could be scaled down and made from scratch as he did his first ones. Gary’s email is: jhadden1@earthlink.net and phone is 313 418-9316 and not the info given in error in recent Bulletins.

Easiest? Find the smallest 4 cyl two stroke and convert it with bash valves and a plug cock on the driveshaft with tiny passages for a long cutoff starting valve. Blank off the exhaust ports and exhaust through the crankcase. This is the easiest and can be done with the least equipment. If you can only find 2 cylinder thingies, then use two!

Karl Petersen

Alan said he did not have a lathe or mill and you guys are telling him to build four cylinder uniflow engines, or bash valve engines. This is to push a bicycle.

I know Gary Hadden in the early seventy when he had his four-cylinder poppet valve uniflow engine in the red steamboat in Kingston Onterio.
The engine was very well made, but it made so much noise you could hear it from the New York side of the lake. It looked much like a Dieter engine.

I can’t imagine building a bash valve engine, spending time on a self destructing machine and very noisey as well. These valves were designed for slow moving feed pumps moving shuttle valves where they work quite well.

To me the whole concept of steam power is quite silence.

Alan if you want a self starting engine look for a 90 degree compound or get a two cylinder engine or two single piston double acting engines and connect them with a coulping with the journals at 90 D to each other.
Look on E-bay or go to some engine shows.
You could use a single cylinder engine with a centrifugal clutch.

PM Research steam engines
[www.pmresearchinc.com]
Stuart engines
[www.stuartmodels.com]
Reliable engines.
[members.pioneer.net]

Do you really need self starting on a BIKE??,,,give the thing a shove for gosh sake,,,A few inch movement will take it off dead center,,Hmmmm,,,,Ben

You are right Ben. But I have more in mind for it. Once I have the bugs worked out of it pushing a bicycle around, I want to build from bike parts a simple side by side buggy for two. It won't have any means of pedaling, and that's why I wanted self starting from the get go.

So far, working from a casting kit - possibly going the two engine route 90 deg apart, seems to be the best route. If I do that then I'll have to make the decision for 'full commitment' - meaning investing in a combo lathe/milling machine.

Or make friends with someone around here who is set up already :-)

Best Regards,

Alan

Where are you,,,,Seems like thee are lots of old machines around,,,big heavy,,,,but i few small enough to save,,,they wont have digital readout,,haha,,,but a dial indicator on a magnet base will work wonders,,I have even worked lathes that did not have graduations on the handwheels,,,,,why have graduations when there was only 1 mike in the whole shop of perhaps 20 men,,,Interchangable parts,,,probably not,,but you could still fit clearence,,,Oh,,fun,,,Ben

I'm in Mission, BC. I just moved here from up the valley and don't know anyone locally yet. This part of BC has a huge hot rod crowd though and I'm sure that there is a lot of older machinery around. Unfortunately all I have space for is a small combo, which I'd have to put on a wheeled base to move around the garage when it gets in the way of other things. Best bet for me is to have access to a machine shop where I can work on a project. I haven't ruled that out yet.

Best Regards,

Alan

I think you should join the British Columbia Society of Model Engineers if your not a member.
I belong to one hear in Massachusetts, Besides meeting guys with machine shops you will meet a lot of men that have built all kinds of steam engines.
A side benefit I’ve seen hear, six lathes have been given away to fellow members when other members up grade their equipment. Saw three mills go that rout as well.
Another group you should look into is SACA-NW. A lot of guys building and working on steam projects. Some members are in British Columbia


[bcsme.unet.ca]

Rolly

Look for pics of George Long steam trycycle,,,1895,,Geo.Whitney built a replica engine for it from MEMORY,,,I think its at Smithsonian now,,,it must weigh almost 100# wet,,haha,Oh yes it was a 2 speed,,and he didnt have much for a shop,,,,Ben

Great help guys. Thanks.

Best Regards,

Alan

Well my first thoughts are to buy a nice lathe first, then worry about getting an engine. There will be so many things you will need one for on a project like this. Sure you can get off the shelf parts and probably come up with something that works, but having the ability to machine some parts will help you keep your sanity in the long run.

I hear lots of folks saying that you need a lathe or milling machine.

Before I put togther a machining cell with my lathe and mill, I found a way around this. For years I relied on drawings. If one is just starting out a better investment would be a cad program. I used to go back and forth with my blueprint guys to the point I just said the hell with it, and started to generate my own drawings, then would shop around at the various machine shops in my area. Also, as an alternative,to a machine shop thats local, is one you find on the internet. Believe me all these people want business, if they dont want to tackle your parts, then find someone who does... This is only an option if you have generated usable drawings. The nice thing about producing them yourself is that if the machine shop guys wants something extra/different you can process that easily yourself.

Once you have a lathe or milling machine, this does not solve your problem, as you must "tool-up" and learn how to make the parts yourself. Sometimes "farming out" the work can be cheaper, but not in all cases. Most parts produced by a machine shop in general, are not always that expensive.

Im sure you will spend more time working with your parts versa making them.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

That is a great suggestion. Fact is, I purchased Alibre Design a few years a go and never used it for much. I almost forgot I had it. I went through some of the tutorials and it's quite easy to use, and also produces great drawings. Wow, more food for thought. I think I'll install it on my current computer and start learning it again. It does have motion too...

Best Regards,

Alan

But you can pick up a used lathe fairly cheap, and you can make your own tooling as you need it. Its just a matter of sizeing your lathe to the projects you want to build. Heck I have had 3 lathes given to me and have given away 2 of them. A lathe is a versitle piece of equipment and should be a first for any one who is fabricateing parts for thier hobby. But there is also alternitives, some people have managed to fabricate some prettty unique mechanical items useing nothing but a saw and a file, (like working hand guns). and i have seen a man use a drill press to spin a part against a hss cutter to turn it round and it even had a good finish. Ingunity is the mother of invention....
Heck back in the thirties guys used to cast thier own blocks in thier back yards for thier race cars, what happened? why dont we still do these things?

The schools don;t teach the kids to ask questions,,,Give the kid a set of wrenches and a broken lawnmower and see what happens,,,Look around for lost soles,,lookin for answers,,just need direction,,,Ben

All files from this thread

File Name	File Size		Posted by	Date
sirius.jpg	16.2 KB	open | download	stanleyguy101	07/30/2010	Read message
MVC-669X.JPG	231.1 KB	open | download	stanleyguy101	07/30/2010	Read message
MVC-674X.JPG	197.2 KB	open | download	stanleyguy101	07/30/2010	Read message
MVC-671X.JPG	181 KB	open | download	stanleyguy101	07/30/2010	Read message
block assembly.jpg	64 KB	open | download	DFlowers	01/12/2013	Read message
uniflowgen5-2.jpg	157.2 KB	open | download	DFlowers	01/24/2013	Read message
6616539379_feb0bdaff2_b.jpg	407.2 KB	open | download	Bill Hinote	01/24/2013	Read message