Well--another jammin week at the Cyclone Facility!! We're attacking all the small details that slow down the progress....problems with pumps, o-rings that don't seal....on and on. We're are getting there-though-it just takes time to iron out the small stuff. We have our 300mph tires now..they're really skinny with no tread on the fronts, and very minimal tread on the rears. The instrument panel is done-it flips up for driver entry and exit. The electrical system is almost finished...we have both a 12volt system and a 24volt system on board. The 24v system runs the hi-pressure feedpump, and the 12v system supplies everything else. All the big stuff is completed...my punch list is getting shorter and shorter--I'm feeling good about our progress, and expecting good things when we get'er running!

Happy July 4th weekend everyone--have a good one!


Chuk

TEAM STEAM USA

Hi Chuk!
Happy 4th to you too.. Did you get a chance to run the engine on the dyno, or were the glitches engine related?
Take care... Is it August yet? LOL! Ernie

Ernie-

Yes, some of the glitches were engine-related. Nothing serious-just annoying small stuff....Next week will be a short one, but I think we'll probably see the engine running on the dyno by the weekend.

Only 5 weeks til Bonneville!!


Chuk

TEAM STEAM USA

Hi all - I'm new here at the Steam Phorum. Just wanted to check in with my best wishes for Chuk, Harry and the entire Steam Team USA. In the face of many, many serious national and world problems, Cyclone Technology has emerged as a shining marvel of imagination, industry and initiative - true Yankee Ingenuity. Feel like I'm in a front row seat at the dawn of new, and clean, industrial revolution. And Frankie, can't wait to see the Sea Steam Speed Record fall with you at the helm in the GG Mom!

- fair wind and following seas, Team Steam,
Mike

Chuk,
There have been exciting times for you personally with this great adventure you are pursueing, I commend you for your enthusiam and fulfilling your dreams. Great 'ol American dreamin' with a twist of 21st Century ingenuity to boot.
Flats are just over a month away...do we have a fuel sponsor lined up yet? A push/tow vehicle? There are possibilities of many people being there for emotional support...are you planning on staying at 'the bend' or do you have a place in Wendover? Would understand if you would not want to answer if these are to forward. Just trying to get a feel of the other times outside of the runs, as rubbing elbows over a bbq grill in the shade would be fun, as well as the fun out on the track with the streamliner.

The Minnesota support team!

jj

JJ-

Yes-this Project has been-and continues to be-a very fun project! From the beginning, and all the way up to the present, everyone has been very supportive and encouraging-which has made the Project come together easier and faster than it would have otherwise. Quite a few people have given their time and their dollars selflessly to get us this far along. We still have a way to go (approx 2500 miles!)before we'll be ready to make an Attempt on the Record, but with the installation of the Cyclone MK5 in the Streamliner probably happening this week-the end of the construction/assembly process is in sight!

We don't have a bio-fuel sponsor or a push vehicle organized yet...I planned to use my van, but haven't had time to install a pushpad on the front of it yet. We are expecting quite a few people to show up at the Flats to party with us...we'll have a "basecamp" at the bend in the road, as well as a pretty good setup in the pit area. Speed Week is a real blast for any gearhead....you'll never see so much go-fast technology in one place anywhere other than the Salt Flats! And, of course, now that there's gonna be a realllly fast STEAM CAR there-that's all the more reason to show up and cheer us on!

Cheers--Chuk

TEAM STEAM USA

How did the dyno results turn out?

HeavySteamer-

The engine is still on the dyno....we've got it set up just like it's gonna be in the vehicle, with the same pumps running off the batteries from the car, the same water tank, etc. The vehicle is still being rigged.....I'm working on the wheel covers that keep the salt out of everything, some of the final wiring is still being completed....dealing with the small details that show up when all the big stuff is taken care of...This week we're planning to drive the Streamliner-under its own power-for the first time!

We're also working on the logistics of getting everything out to Bonneville-in 3 weeks!!

Chuk

I am hoping to be there on Sunday. Do you think that you will be there on August 14? I am an investor and hope to party! Is Jay Leno or film crew going to be there that week?

Billy2Bob-

We're planning to arrive on the 9th, and stay at least thru the middle of the next week. We're getting there early-in order to get our pit area set up, and to get the Streamliner thru inspection before the rush. I have no idea who will be there other than my crew and the Cyclone group. We'll just be "playing it by ear" regarding anything other than our focus of running the "Cyclone" as fast as she'll go!

There's always a good party going on around the Flats during Speed Week!!

Chuk

TEAM STEAM USA

Chuk, How did the dyno testing and running on it's own power turn out? Hungry for information here.

Hi All,

I was snooping around Cyclone's facebook page and found this cool picture. As an ASE tech im keeping a keen eye on this LSR attempt... Best wishes-

Jeremy Holmes
ASE certified Advanced Level Specialist

HeavySteamer-

The engine is still on the dyno stand-we're working all the bugs out before installing it in the vehicle. The engine is fine, we keep having issues with peripheral equipment...such as pumps, seals, etc, etc.

The STREAMLINER is looking good-we're getting down to the final weeks before we load up and head West. In addition to pushing hard to finish assembling the vehicle in the short time we have left-We have the additional task of dealing with the logistics of transporting all the tools, vehicles, and people out to the Flats.

It's gonna be an exciting 2 weeks!

Chuk

TEAM STEAM USA

Damn that's a good lookin' car! Also coming out to the Flats, stoked.

Hi Chuk

Wish I could make it out to watch.. Have you decided on a fuel yet? I had an evil thought earlier. You could see if you could get some Micky Dee's used french fry oil along the way, and make everyone on the flats hungry during your runs.. LOL! My best wishes are with you..

Drive safe!! Ernie

Hey-

Home for the weekend-after another week over in Pompano Beach with the Cyclone crew...we hit it hard all week and got a lot of the details done on the Streamliner. We still don't have the engine in the car...all week the crew worked on getting the bugs worked out of the pumps, etc, and then they started having problems with the dyno computer-which wouldn't read the temp sensors correctly, and the load cell-which wouldn't give a stable torque reading.

I'm feeling very frustrated with the way the dyno/engine test and installation have been going, but Harry and his crew have been giving it 120%, so that's just the way the cookie crumbles. They're working all this weekend, trying to get things in order so that the engine can go in as soon as possible.

The vehicle itself is almost ready to hit the Flats-this next week will see it totally ready to go-with the exception of the engine....and hopefully the Cyclone crew will be successful with their efforts to get the gremlins worked out of the dyno table-so we can get this Show on the road!

Wish us Luck!


Chuk

TEAM STEAM USA

Chuk,

Oh do i know what you guys are going through right now, a Chinese fire drill is a walk in the park by comparison.
Do please let me know what speed you managed during testing before going all the way to Bonneville. I am so deeply concerned about having enough horsepower to hit 170, Remember unless it was changed, 10% over the existing record gets a new one.
Spinning the prayer wheels at top speed, sacrificing vestal virgins, tons of incense burning and anything else that comes to mind. You just have to flatten my car's old record and the one that insane British car did.
i will be glued to SpeedVision and Autoweek just in case Harry doesn't call on the way home.
All the very best to everyone for sure.

Jim

PS, To hell with that dyno computer, make Harry go buy a big spring scale and use that, they do the same job you know.

Hello All

Upon the second story ledge of the Napoleon Count of Louvre is a statue of Denis Papin (born 1647). His statue stands with other likes of Descartes and Voltare. Papin is the father of the vacuum pump which led to the atmosphere operated steam engine. We know the rest of the story.

Now within the next few days an event equal to the Papin story will unfold on the Great Salt Flats of Utah. Chuk Williams will drive the Cyclone Streamliner to break the steam power land record. It is my assessment that this event will change the preception of steam automotive power for the next 100 years or until the next equivilent event. Do not under estimate the importance of this event and its influence upon steam power. Be there so you can tell your great grand kids about the event. I will be there, living in the desert for a week, accepting the torture of the elements in exchange for the opportunity to be a witness. I have measured the vehicle, its wheel diameter, gear ratio, mass, engine torque and aerodynamic characteristics. My numbers show that Chuk will bring home an average run time of 20.51165 seconds. Be there or be square.

Note: Chuk tells me that we all are going to have one great party over at the Cyclone camp site. Be there early before the beer runs out. All cycloners are automatically invited.

jerry

Hey Chuk,

Is there room in your racer to fit your dragster boiler ( 2,000 lb output at max now right? ) and a Bryan engine in there? That combination should give plenty of power.

From what I understand the extended boiler section was abandoned and they are only using the stock boiler size. That Cyclone can only make 100 hp at the shaft, two gear/cog belt drives between the engine and the axle right? If 95% efficient each that would be about 90 hp to the axle, friction through the axle and at the wheel should be more like 85 hp.

As Jim said, push for the spring brake, or for that matter a fan brake, both work and are very simple. The issue may be in the verticality of the crankshaft.

Looks like way, way, way too much sparky stuff being used for the testing. Why didn't they use the dyno(s) that they have been testing their engines on all of these years, or is that the same dyno or have they been testing?

I hope that all goes well for you and your significant time and effort do not go to waste!

Caleb Ramsby

Hi Guys
As you know every one is working very hard to get to the time trials. It can not be hap hazardly done. There is enough power to do what we need to do. The dyno set up is to mock up the operation in the car not just to measure the hp. I for one do not want any surprises. It moniters the pressure and temperature on every cylinder plus combustion temperature and other aspects of the installation. One of the proplems solved early on was the 18 gal water tank. As this engine for the car is set up non condencing ,however in the process of piping the lube and cooling water back to the water tank it was noticed there was little or no steam coming from the stack as the internal condencing in the block was occouring and the water tank was geting hot with little water loss. Some times some things can work too well. We then discontinued the water around the cylinder coil to let the steam be steam and exit the stack. We have a dyno expert coming in asap to get accurate readings however I can tell you it was at full torque load and the required rpm but I will not publish data unless it is varified. We have two dynos and this is the big one.
We are very pleased at the job that Chuk is doing on the chassie and there is still a lot to be done. The trailer not mentioned is also being modified to haul the car and should be finished this coming week. My sister is donating her large 45' motor home diesel powered to tow the car in the inclosed trailer with logos on the sides.
Chuk and the gang at Cyclone thank you for all your support as you are all part of this American team
Harry

If one were trying to duplicate the loads of a vehicle would it not be best to use a combination fan brake and flywheel?

They could easily be designed to duplicate the aerodynamic aspects of the vehicle and give the real world load at a given "car speed", as well as the load required to get up to that speed in a given amount of time.

One would of course have to modify how far the fan blades stand out to account for a given ambiant air temperature, moisture content and pressure, but that is simple. The big flat blade types used at threasher shows work very well.

The flywheel would be proportioned to give the identical inertial aspects of the vehicle, that is a given weight at a velocity which would equal out to what the vehicle would produce.

With proper proportioning and gearing/speed of the engine, fan and flywheel it would not only supply the resistance for a given vehicle speed, but it would also supply the resistance to the acceleration of the vehicle.

It would take a very complex sparky or spring brake dyno to get those resistances for all of the speeds.

Caleb Ramsby

Caleb,

Definitely no. A programmable electric dyno can and does allow any form of load variation with ease. We had a 700 hp Eaton in my lab when we were developing the flywheel energy storage system for the DOE and the San Francisco Muni.
Get an old DC elevator motor and sling it between bearings with an arm and load measuring something at the other end. Made two of them long ago. Vary the field current to adjust the load. A theater arc lamp rectifier works just fine for powering the field coils.
Capable of vast overloads for a little while.

Jim

Jim,

Still don't see the point of getting sparky power mixed up in it all if it isn't absolutly nescessary.

I really think that it has a great deal to do with what one is trying to accomplish. If it is simply to figure out how the system will respond to being used in a vehicle, either running at top speed, accelerating through the 1/4 mile(via rev counts) or simulating stop and go traffic with a cold engine, the fan brake and flywheel would be able to do all of that. It would also be able to give a constant resistance for highway speeds and such.

It would also limit one to testing the system under only the conditions that a vehicle would see. Call me simple, but I don't see any valid point of determining the water or efficiency rates of a system under conditions that it will never see or will only experience 1% of the time.

It would be easy to determine the average horsepower produced by the engine over a range of accelerations, steady running and even stopages if the rpms of the air brake and flywheel was recorded on a roll of paper. For acceleration curves a time factor would be used to add the inertial resistance encountered, for the aero resistance just figure the resistance for various important points on the paper then average them out. Then you also have a paper record that won't disapear in the presence of a powerfull magnet!

Well, this got way off subject, but it really got me thinking more and more about the WHY of a dyno as much as the HOW of a dyno. Using a dyno to flash around static numbers is one thing, using it to reproduce real world conditions then figuring fuel milage for the vehicle that it was simulating is another. Kinda like the "horsepower" figures from IC engine dyno runs, they are quoted from the peak power output, but honestly what percent of the time will the engine run at that peak, and will the engine ever run under such perfect conditions that exist in the dyno room with the obsessive engineers tweaking every little part to bump it up that extra horsepower.

This brings us back to the race car at hand, the only way that dyno they are using will simulate how the system will run in the car is if they dump a few buckets of salt all over the thing.

Caleb Ramsby

Parts of this Peter Gabriel Steam Music video should be used in Cyclones PR for the event and otherwise!

[www.youtube.com]

It will help bring the appeal to the masses.

I love the idea of throwing a bucket of salt over the engine to duplicate the harsh conditions on the salt flats! Might not be a bad idea!

Caleb,

Very simple. A home brewed electric dyno is infinitely adjustable, control is very delicate and it is a lot easier to make one from some old elevator or trolly motor than fool with fans or friction brakes. And they can take monstrous overloads for a while.
Also, you can program an electric dyno to precisely simulate road conditions or anything else you want, just by varying the field voltage. Far better than even a water brake and I have made and used both up to 800 hp.

One huge problem with fan or water brakes is that they were made for either peak measurements or constant loads. The other big thing is that steam engines are nasty to dyno because of huge torque at minimum rpm. Dynos today are high horsepower at high speed, IC engines. Even big truck Diesel dynos cannot use steam engines easily when you want to measure things at very low rpm like peak torque. The only thing you can do is overdrive the dyno at a 3-1 or 5-1 ratio so it can spin faster when the engine is going very slow and sort of equal they way they are designed to be used with gas engines today.
Honest fuel mileage only comes when the car is on the road and wind and rolling resistance comes into play. A static dyno is only good for measuring fuel rate at a given output and is not relevant when you want real road fuel measurements that include everything else.

jim

Jim, Those old fan and water dyno were made for steam engines. They pull them
out at the old farm events around here. Usually have an old traction engine
running one. They do wok for slow turning engines. But the are not dynamically
adjustable and could not easily be made to vary loading.

One new type of dyno is being used on small engines that is interesting. It is a
fly wheel dyno. There are plans on the net to build one. But care must be taken
not to over rev them. They can be hazardous.

The are simply a heavy flywheel connected to the engine under test. There is a
sensor that reads angular movement. Simply generates pulses. The pulses are
timed by the micro processor hard ware. Most PC have a fairly high res clock. So
simply have the flywheel sensor connected to a high priority interrupt. On that
interrupt the code stores the clock in a buffer. By analyzing the clock buffer
you can figure the angular acceleration and with know flywheel weight diameter
etc you can calculate the acceleration and torque.

They generate a more realistic torque curve for racing applications. As racers
are interested in acceleration torque. There can be quite a difference in the
torque curves generated with a load dyno because they are measuring a static
torque at constant RPMs. Though they generate a torque curve over a range of
RPMs. It's just not the same as a accelerating engine. I would like to see a
combination dyno that has both load and acceleration dyno.

Andy

Hey Guys,

Andy your point about dynamic acceleration is exactly what I was attempting to point out.

Fan type of dynos produce a very good dynamic resistance. Say that the engine is question was geared in the car to give 800 revs per mile or 5,280 feet or 6.6 feet per rev and the dynamic aero resistance was 7.2 (24 sq ft times a cd of .3) then design the fan so that it moves. Then design the fan setup so that it moves blades with a dynamic aero resistance of 7.2 sq ft 6.6 feet per rev of the engine.

With the flywheel, say the car weighs 3,000 lbs, it would move 6.6 feet per rev, so 19,800 lb feet of inertia per rev. If the flywheel rim center of mass was at 6 feet then the distance traveled per rev would be 18.84 feet per rev, so then the flywheel would need to weigh 1,051 lbs or so to mimic the inertial quality of the vehicle.

The only thing left would be the rolling resistance, which could be a small brake.

It would probably be easier to use numerous small flywheels then a single large one.

With a setup like this one wouldn't be able to over rev the engine since the fan would produce the aero resistance of the car and you would get a very good idea of top speed. As well as be able to test acceleration runs easily with different gearings.

Why I really like this idea is that once it is setup for a given vehicle then there are no calculations or programing required for the machine to duplicate the real world resistances encountered by the vehicle.

Even grades could be duplicated with a more powerfull friction brake, grades are simply a pound per pound ratio. Friction brakes however tend to heat up after long runs.

This system would also duplicate the coasting qualities of a vehicle and could be used to get good 0 - 60 mph times, with a rev counter one could also do 1/4 mile runs with it.

Jim you are right, it wouldn't be a good system to hold an engine down low with a heavy load, but how often do engines actually experience that? Even going up a stiff grade with a heavy load the vehicle should be able to maintian 30 mph, just crank up the friction brake.

Well, to each his own.

Caleb Ramsby

Hi Caleb,

An electrical dyno can measure both acceleration and steady state operation and any imaginable combinations thereof; it is more a matter of the sophistication of the controls and mathematical models. With a computer monitoring load and rpm it can rapidly feed juice to the windings to simulate resistance as the square or cube of rpm (should you so desire) or jack resistance up according to complex mathematical models closely simulating acceleration, rolling friction, aero loads and the twitchy way the rear end loses grip when you stomp the throttle. At the OEM level, and combined with long experience and good vehicle data, it can usually come frighteningly close to the results found in the road tests. Some dynos go so far as to pitch the engine side-to-side. fore and aft, and vertically to duplicate the effects inclines and rough surfaces have on lubricants and other fluids. While enthusiasts mostly use dynos to determine how much zoom they have; in pre-production they are invaluable to establish mpg, emissions and reliability data. If anyone ever brings a steam engine to that point, that is how I would see the dynos being largely employed.

Ken

Hi Folks

Surely dynamic dynamometers are for racers who are tuning engines, whilst Harry's primary business is his engine's development and reliability testing more suited to an electric or hydraulic dynamometer. In an ideal world you would have both types, and a rolling road. There are few who have built a complete working steam system, never mind construct an engine testing station.

This may rub the wrong way, but for those developing and testing engines on a budget, old water brake dynamometers are readily available right now at budget prices. Also, your local Farm tractor dealer will likely have a modern 400bhp electric dynamometer or an older hydraulic. These usually have a choice of inputs for direct engine drive, 1000rpm, 750rpm and 540rpm. For a modest fee they are usually happy to hire out with an engineer present.
Colleges and universities are a different story and will get up tight about insurance, health and safety etc.....

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LSREngineTitle.pdf	87.2 KB	open | download	HLS	02/02/2010	Read message
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