Jim-Ken-Tom,
I had always wondered about the record setting English car as I thought they only ran in one direction, I am probably wrong.
Ken, you know of 7 projects on hand at this time, inquireing minds would love to know. I am most impressed with your ability and energies
to do all of this and hold down a job at the same time. Can you let us know of the other potential projects? May we wish them well in all of there efforts. By the way all my calulations years ago for Coburn Benson if the 1906 Stanley racer could achieve 107MPH average for the 5 mile race with pumps off it did it with 77HP and no boiler overdraw was possible as the drawdown of water in the boiler would have just made it. I believe that the car was actually capable of 155-160MPH for the one mile with almost 160-180HP. Frank Stanley said the car was capable of 250HP with large boiler overdraw, don't think they considered the large collapse of the indicator diagram @ 800+ RPM. Woudn't be nice to be allowed a recreation(with more weight on the front wheels) to run and set a new record! Dream on George.
Best to all, George

Hi George,

That is a wonderful dream! One more run -- and world record -- for the 1906 Stanley Rocket!

Peter

Hi George,

I can't take any credit for energy in "finding" these attempts, with one exception it was simply a matter of clicking online and checking my e-mail or the Phorum. In response to Kelly, I just wanted to make the point that there were not only two attempts, but more people in the background also interested and showing different degrees of competence and resources.....and that immediately provoked a response from Nick that there was a 7th attempt in Great Britain!

Well, Nick certainly proved my thesis, much more readily and neatly than I would have predicted. My list pretty neatly overlaps Tom Kimmel's for the simple reason that he forwarded information to me from these people...so Tom is the guy with the energy. Usually Tom just asked if I could answer a question or do a quick calculation for these individuals, which kind of falls under my responsibilities as SACA VP. I'm certain Tom doesn't forward all his correspondance, or even a large chunk of it, so I can only guess how many hours he puts in answering mail for SACA. Since it is a volunteer club, we can conclude he is drastically underpaid.

The one exception I mentioned nvolved a Chicago area resident visiting Tom's shop during a SACA meet. He impressed me as having the resources and knowledge needed to set the LSR, but like many collectors he wished to remain anonymous. I have no idea if he is still interested in pursuing the idea or not. I've also had conversations with a couple of people who e-mailed me directly about the topic..they mentioned the Forum and GM...so that may account for it. I can't strongly enough re-emphasize the original note about varying credibility or the laws of physics; until some of these folks reach the point of making a public announcement I think it best to adopt the 'Dragnet premise'....withholding the names to protect the innocent. I'm not holding my breath waiting for a crowd to show up at Speed Week..

To the best of my knowledge, there are only two credible steam LSR programs out there and possibly the one Nick mentions is a third. If the guy from Chicago gets serious he would automatically be in the running . I would be somewhat less than amazed to hear of a 'mystery vehicle' show up at Bonneville, the current steam LSR is so slow that the barriers to entry are minimal. Truthfully, even bumping the record to 200 ish't going to gain much attention in the motoring world....any number of production cars can go to Bonneville and do that with the air conditioning taking the desert edge off; some hot rodders have gone much quicker. Now, if someone makes a serious attempt at gettng a steamer to beat the current ELECTRIC LSR, then things could be interesting. I have to admit, for all the bashing we steam guys give electric cars, those electric people sure deliver on the salt flats.

Regards,

Ken

Hi Ken
At the pressent there are three cars regestered at Bonneville. The Cyclone car being one number 1777 , battle of Saratoga when the Yanks beat the Brits. To their knowledge it is the only one dyno tested.
Harry

Hi Ken,

That electric car record prompts a deviation to the usual steam car idea. Who says that a steam car for a record run has to have a burner-boiler supplying the steam??
Nobody, only that the steam expander power the wheels. OK, going back to the fuel pump turbine in the German V-2 rocket, why not construct a hydrogen peroxide-potassium permanganate steam generator and use that? The Walther torpedo too, same thing. Then as there is surplus oxygen in the steam from this semi controlled explosion, inject fuel and add that to the output. Also German in WW-II.

The electric is hard to beat. Take a 220 volt motor and dump 600 volts into it with unlimited amps and they get all excited. (Pun intended) I wonder if the old Navy torpedo silver- zinc primary batteries are still around? They really delivered the amps too.
We used to have hundreds of them in the lab at Lockheed for a plasma arc power source, then someone bought a huge surplus DC motor generator set from the Boston subway and abused that to a fair-thee-well. Still under the floor in the lab at Palo Alto as far as I know. Too expensive to hoist out.

Harry,
Two cars we know of, yours and Chuk's; but who has the third one and what is it?

George,
If one does not run at Bonneville; but elsewhere, then build the Stanley Rocket again with a 30" X 18" boiler and the four venturi burner that no one seems to include, the objection to a storage boiler is removed. Just a wing or two please, maybe piston valves with big ports to ease that collapsing PV diagram and NO flat bottom or bumps in the course to launch the car. The drawdown energy available is really something else.
Ben, Didn't the two Stanley Vanderbilt cars also have the oversize four venturi burner?

This is really going to be fascinating to see evolve and Good Luck to all.
Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2012 11:08AM by Jim Crank.

Hm, steamer with rocket fuel - good idea. Perhaps an electric boiler? The hobby batteries now crank out over 13 KW per kg - for about 30 seconds.

EDIT: That should be 30 seconds, not 5.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2012 12:04PM by sidrug.

Sid,
That is not near enough to warm a cup of tea. The energy content in our torpedos, so I was told, is around a continuous 250 hp with that witches brew.
Some batteries have a huge discharge capability and others blow up if you really sock it to them.
Besides, you have to recharge them and not one that I know of will stand a monster recharge. Trickle-trickle even when cooled. One problem that the electric car fanatics seem to want to not mention.
But; that 85-90% hydrogen peroxide is very dangerous stuff. A bit of it in a can and drop any organic material into it and it explodes. Nasty stuff.
Jim

Hmmmm.....

I could get my "Official SACA Coffee Cup" taken away for suggesting such a heresy, but maybe some cooperation is in order. If the various steam clubs collaborated on a set of safety standards based on solid engineering, and everyone signed off on it, maybe it would be possible to get the Bonneville people to adopt the standards. This might mean that stored energy boilers would require recent ASME code certifications or some such similar pains in the anatomy, but it might also give steam participants a bit more leeway. Obviously, if people were willing to write a standard for a Walther system, the safety precautions would be fantastically stringent while for a low capacity, once-through boiler they would be relatively mild. I can see how the standards might be based on potential instantaneous energy release, flammability and toxicity. I know it's a lot of work but trying to set up a parallel venue to set records and then the struggle to get the records accepted may be greater; might be an idea worth kicking around, anyway.

Regards,

Ken

Some of those hobby batteries can charge in less than 20 minutes, generally an hour is probably better for it. But, most of the charge happens fast, then the trickle for the last 20% or so takes much time. I hope Li EV does not become more popular, I hear Li mining is dirty and the cells die pretty quickly.
LiFePo seems like the best chemistry (A123 / Saphion). It's what many of the high end cordless tools use.

On that blower issue:
Exhaust steam to variable nozzle ring Cummins/Holset turbo (called VGT) - can be had for 300$ on ebay sometimes. 2-3 atm, does that solve the blower problem, or is it too much? There is a smaller one from Garrett (called VNT) also - similar prices.

Ken,
What a wonderful idea and after all, isn't the advancement and return of steam that all of us want to see?
That controlled explosion peroxide idea was just to push the envelope a bit more. After working with such things at the Rocket Works, I sure would not advise anyone playing with it at home, good way to get killed in a very dramatic fashion.

Certainly, a once through steam generator and with a really intense fire thanks using a modified Diesel turbocharger as the draft booster. And a carburetor burner to get rid of some unneeded computer control nonsense and keep the air-fuel ratio constant, firing into a cyclone firebox. concentric coils for ease of construction and repair with all the connections on the top of the coil stack. Think of a greatly increased and higher pressure Lear bus steam generator, that was a good one.
Besler always said that with a good draft booster in a Doble, the evaporation rate with smooth steel tubing was about 28 lbs/hr/sq/ft and we can go better than that now with extended surface tubing. The good control system exists already. Now, what engine???? A Continental airplane flat six perhaps with new unaflow cylinders?
We could actually keep it within SACA if people would stop fantasizing on dream science fiction power plants and settle down on a good simple system that works for a racer.
See what you started!! Count me in.

I found the Bonneville people that visited when I was building our car to be the nicest to work with. They looked for education and information and if one gladly laid it all out for them, then the path was easy as possible. Actually, they wanted to see that the car did not use any storage boiler, they did know about that and that it had a safety valve, and no live steam lines went into the cockpit. In reality they don't need any set rules for steam cars, only that you can show them that it is safe and of course that the expander powers the wheels. Other than that, you are on your own, which is the way it should be.

Sid,
The LI-ion polymer is the top of the present heap of battery ideas; but like all the others, it is far from ideal.
Li is not all that available in the U.S., we go to China and South America for the really big deposits. It is dirty and the cells have some nasty fire and disposal problems, need direct and good cooling and a bunch of other problems like being very costly and not with all that long a service life if really pushed hard, that the EV people try to sweep under the rug. What may or may not turn out from all the panic development going on now is that Li-air battery. Google of course has a fine description of it.
Jim

Jim,,,My understanding is that the Vanderbilt cars had the same powerplant as the LSR car,,
Therefore the parts were interchangable,,This is borne out by storys of swaping cyl blocks and such,,during race week,,
I dont recall seeing a photo view of thr ventouri side of the burner,,
I dont believe we are sure if they had a separate pilot,,,The men that ran these cars all had run the Locos with no separate pilot,,,
just a flat filed on the auto needle,,for hi-lo fire,,,Keeping the fire lit really isn't a problem annyhow,,,Cheers,,Ben

Hi Ben,
That is my information too; but where it came from I sure don't know. Four oversized venturi, one on it's own valve to serve as the warmup burner and no pilot light in the  car.
I know the stock Model K had the three venturi burner; but never sure about the two Vanderbilt cars.
If anyone does reconstruct the Rocket I sure hope they don't use the tiller like the original one!!
Jim

Fred Marriot had to be not only the fastest man alive but the bravest man alive!!!!
No safety, gear wire wheels, krapy tires, a tiller to steer at 150mph O MY!!
Harry

Not only the bravest but most talented! Think of sitting in that upside down canoe with not only a tiller to contend with but a throttle that would shut off if he let go of it and a boiler that had no pilot light it is said that to light the fire they would drop a bunch of old fashioned wood matches down from the smokebox and hope a few made it down the tubes to light the fire) and fuel pressure/burn rate by another valve on the dashboard, he had to keep the fire on all the time or lose it. How many arms did he have??
In one of the '06 runs it is written that on one run the car suddenly veered off course and slowed down--then sped up again. Fred explained at speed on that run it blew the racing goggles off his eyes so he ducked his head below the dashboard(could not see where he was going and had to let go of the throttle to pull his goggles back on) then his head popped back up and the car resumed its course and acceleration. Coburn(Ben) knows all of this.
Brave and talented!
George

Jim
I stopped at the NASCAR museum last year and took the attached photo of the original tiller steering that came off the wreck of the Rocket in 1907.
Rolly

Quote
Jim C
Sid,
The LI-ion polymer is the top of the present heap of battery ideas; but like all the others, it is far from ideal.

I agree, the Silver Iron batterys [KOH] made by Westinghouse that are used on Nuke Subs are probably the best for EV traction motor applications.

The thing thats great about the silver is its a commodity, so at the end of the rechargable batterys life, the core/trade in value is determined by the market.

Generally the paper separators between plates are what need to be replaced, the amount of silver lost is negligable.

Jeremy

Don't forget to credit Glenn Curtiss,,1907 run of 137+- mph on that 250 cid V-8 motorcycle,,,no flywheel,,!!!
No clutch,,,no gearbox,,,hold ex valves open to push start,,,not sure of gear ratio,,,Ultimate thrill,,,only did one run
to date,,,hahahhhhh,,,Ben



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2012 06:44PM by ben.

Ben it was listed as a 40 HP eight cylinder V motor.
Scientific American.
Rolly

Rolly,
THAT Is the tiller?? Brave is not the word for Fred. Clinging to that piece of tubing at that speed?? UGH.

Jeremy,
That is just what happened to that huge bank of batteries at the lab, three separators failed and it blew up, then came that monster generator from the subway.

Harry,
That Stanley LSR car. And please add: No flat bottom and watch that the torque reaction of that powerful engine doesn't try to lift the front wheels again. Oh yes, let's not have any bumps on the course either. Let the games begin, this is going to be great fun.

Ben,
Curtiss was one brave man, an early version of his airplane engine I heard once.

Jim

Hi Jim
The new LSR car body has been already proven to 462 mph and is very stable. Yes the bottom is flat and there is a vaccum turn up at the rear and there is also a flexable skirt that fill in the 2" height above the ground to within 1/4",it works. This time I did not have to build a body to fit an existing chassie allowing for better streamlining. The two front wheels only 2.5" X 21"dia and are in line and are already approved by the race committe. This configuration helps in the small foward frontal area that generates front end lift. The torque of the engine is in a flat plane to a gear box. When we designed and built the gearbox we seemed to be pushed for time ,however safety should always be first so a clutch has been added especialy since we are increasing the horse power. This way we will not have to start at full cuttoff and can run a constant torque from a push start as most of these cars do.
Harry

The Curtiss still exists,,,,property of Smithsonian,,,,,
MAY BE on loan to Curtiss museum in Hammondsport NY,
The universal OR rear gear failed at the end of the run,,,
Piece of history,,,the good stuff,,,,Cheers,,Ben

Ben,
You say the Curtiss still is in existence?? Would it make good moonshine ;o). ?
George

HI Chuk

Do you have a new website or facebook group for your project?

All the best

Doug

Here's a great video of the Curtis. It's easy to see why the U/J broke!
[www.dailymotion.com]

Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2012 04:21AM by Mike Clark.

It was said when it came loose,,,,,,,,,,it viberated just aaawful,,,,One ride was enough,,,Ben

Thanks again Mike,,,
Battery ign
Atmospheric in valves / no rockers,,
Shifting cam for compression release for starting,,,250 cid
Twin carbs,,,,QUAD ex pipes
Whats that strap pedle above the U joint??
Thanks again,,Ben



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2012 10:20AM by ben.

The strap pedle pushs a V block against the rear tire for braking. Looks to be the only stoping power besides the engine or an anchor and chain!

Caleb Ramsby

What power would this need to set that record???,
The museum says this one is a replica,,,still a great job,,
Wonder if the one at Smithsonian can be viewd,,,,Ben



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 07:07PM by ben.

Those guys-Marriott, Curtis-all the guys who acheived unheard of speeds(for the time)-really were pushing the limits, and their only safety gear was a leather helmet and a pair of goggles! Nowadays, with our extensive list of safety gear- it's hard for us modern humans to fully comprehend how big their "huevos" really were!


I want to introduce everyone to our new LSR Project- [www.steamspeedamerica.com]

It's taken awhile to get things reorganized, but we're moving along and making progress toward our goal of bringing the Land Steam Record back to the USA!

Chuk

STEAMSPEEDAMERICA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2012 08:50PM by Scott Finegan.

Best wishes Chuk - I like your down to earth attitude, it's an enthusiast's dream project.

Mike

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