US Land Steam Record!!
Posted by chuk williams
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! October 17, 2011 06:02PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
Mike,
There are a few differences to keep in mind in regards to blowing down a firetube boiler from the bottom of it and the Brits LSR boiler(s) setup. On the Stanley one is blowing out superheated water, part of which evaporates upon the drop in pressure and becomes steam. That of course is rapidly mixed with ambiant air and cooled greatly.
The LSRs system didn't use a "throttle" per say, it had a bypass valve that directed part of the live steam to the turbine and part to a pipe going out the back of the car, of that I am sure. I am not sure however if they had much boiler output control. From what I remember of their setup it was a system designed to run at full tilt and took some time to get fired up and running stable. All of that time the steam was being exhausted out the back. So for getting going from a stop the boiler is going full blast with, I believe 5,000 lbs hr was their boiler output goal, bellowing out the back pipe at full pressure and temperature, then the bypass was gradually closed so that more and more steam went through the turbine. There are or were some videos of it practicing in England and one can get an idea of how the starts went with billows of steam and a loud roar well before the car is under way.
Caleb Ramsby
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 06:03PM by Caleb Ramsby.
There are a few differences to keep in mind in regards to blowing down a firetube boiler from the bottom of it and the Brits LSR boiler(s) setup. On the Stanley one is blowing out superheated water, part of which evaporates upon the drop in pressure and becomes steam. That of course is rapidly mixed with ambiant air and cooled greatly.
The LSRs system didn't use a "throttle" per say, it had a bypass valve that directed part of the live steam to the turbine and part to a pipe going out the back of the car, of that I am sure. I am not sure however if they had much boiler output control. From what I remember of their setup it was a system designed to run at full tilt and took some time to get fired up and running stable. All of that time the steam was being exhausted out the back. So for getting going from a stop the boiler is going full blast with, I believe 5,000 lbs hr was their boiler output goal, bellowing out the back pipe at full pressure and temperature, then the bypass was gradually closed so that more and more steam went through the turbine. There are or were some videos of it practicing in England and one can get an idea of how the starts went with billows of steam and a loud roar well before the car is under way.
Caleb Ramsby
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 06:03PM by Caleb Ramsby.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! October 17, 2011 08:31PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Caleb,
GOOD GOD, the Mickey Mouse School of Engineering, if you want to dignify it with the name.
What tickles me is ours, including three trips to Bonneville and one to El Mirage Dry Lake, including building the car in the first place, cost $47,000.00.
According to very good sources in England, Lord Montagu spent about one million Pounds, including the donated stuff and it only went a couple of miles pre hour faster than we did. 148.308 vs 145.607 = a whole 2.701 mph. Gee!!!!
Also three of those so called steam generators burned out at Bonneville, because their control system didn't work. As to the water system, something out of comic books.
The Williams-Cyclone car is much slippprier and if the drive ratio is right, it should beat both cars records. I hope. When??? Who knows.
Interesting you mention that long term billowing of steam before their car moved. That 1/2-V ratio business in action, something I warned them about; but was told they knew all the answers so buzz off. According to the expert, Bob Barber, the water rate of a super well designed impulse turbine, like the Lear turbines, may be 15 lbs/hp/hr when at speed; but can go way over 100 pounds during startup.
Probably the basic reason for some of their rediculous steam contraptions burning out at Bonneville, according to a good inside source who knew what was going on. Twelve in parallel, all that money and what a joke. They couldn't control them. Oh, I forgot, the use of the modern "space age" solution to everything, computers.
Ah yes, the pure academic approach with not one bit of hands on experience with any steam car. They never learn.
Jim
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 08:48PM by Jim Crank.
GOOD GOD, the Mickey Mouse School of Engineering, if you want to dignify it with the name.
What tickles me is ours, including three trips to Bonneville and one to El Mirage Dry Lake, including building the car in the first place, cost $47,000.00.
According to very good sources in England, Lord Montagu spent about one million Pounds, including the donated stuff and it only went a couple of miles pre hour faster than we did. 148.308 vs 145.607 = a whole 2.701 mph. Gee!!!!
Also three of those so called steam generators burned out at Bonneville, because their control system didn't work. As to the water system, something out of comic books.
The Williams-Cyclone car is much slippprier and if the drive ratio is right, it should beat both cars records. I hope. When??? Who knows.
Interesting you mention that long term billowing of steam before their car moved. That 1/2-V ratio business in action, something I warned them about; but was told they knew all the answers so buzz off. According to the expert, Bob Barber, the water rate of a super well designed impulse turbine, like the Lear turbines, may be 15 lbs/hp/hr when at speed; but can go way over 100 pounds during startup.
Probably the basic reason for some of their rediculous steam contraptions burning out at Bonneville, according to a good inside source who knew what was going on. Twelve in parallel, all that money and what a joke. They couldn't control them. Oh, I forgot, the use of the modern "space age" solution to everything, computers.
Ah yes, the pure academic approach with not one bit of hands on experience with any steam car. They never learn.
Jim
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 08:48PM by Jim Crank.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 09, 2011 01:54PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 10 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 10, 2011 10:12AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 338 |
Billy-
You ask a question that a lot of people have asked lately! Though we haven't put out much info regarding the LSR Project recently-things are progressing. I attended a meeting at Cyclone this week and the Project was one of the subjects we discussed at length. No particular date has been set for the first run and subsequent tests of the Streamliner, but be assured that I am feeling very good about the prospect of getting the vehicle running and beginning testing in the first quarter of 2012.
Speed Week at Bonneville is in the middle of August, so we've got a few months to get everything going well before we head out to the Salt Flats. I feel much more confident that things will go well in 2012. Last August-and October-we were right up against the wall-time wise-whereas next year we'll have time to work out the bugs before we make our Attempt on the Record.
Thanks for keeping up with the interest and support-we'll get there!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM USA
You ask a question that a lot of people have asked lately! Though we haven't put out much info regarding the LSR Project recently-things are progressing. I attended a meeting at Cyclone this week and the Project was one of the subjects we discussed at length. No particular date has been set for the first run and subsequent tests of the Streamliner, but be assured that I am feeling very good about the prospect of getting the vehicle running and beginning testing in the first quarter of 2012.
Speed Week at Bonneville is in the middle of August, so we've got a few months to get everything going well before we head out to the Salt Flats. I feel much more confident that things will go well in 2012. Last August-and October-we were right up against the wall-time wise-whereas next year we'll have time to work out the bugs before we make our Attempt on the Record.
Thanks for keeping up with the interest and support-we'll get there!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM USA
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 22, 2011 08:45PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 17 |
Chuk, I recently went to the Los Angeles motorcycle show, where I found a record-breaking bike accompanied by one of the engineers who built and tuned it. I think the woman who set a record was Leslie Porterfield, but it's supercharged and so on - went faster than 200 mph. I talked to the engineer for a long time. He said that the most speed-limiting problem at Bonneville is the slip at the rear wheel on salt. As you have said elswhere in this forum, the salt conditions vary wildly depending on the weather that year (and 2011 was a BAD year for traction). Recalling some numbers very roughly, he told me that at a true 200 mph, the computer said the rear wheel was turning much faster - maybe 250+ mph. That amount of wheel slip did not change much even when they tried to load a lot more weight on the rear tire. They tried every aerodynamic trick within the rules to get more load on the rear wheel.
So, do you have any idea of how much power will be lost to wheel slip? I searched for discussion on this topic and found none in this forum.
So, do you have any idea of how much power will be lost to wheel slip? I searched for discussion on this topic and found none in this forum.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 22, 2011 09:13PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
Hey Tlskenderian,
The search function here is automated to only go back 30 days, you need to set it for longer if you want to do a true search.
[steamautomobile.com]
Exerpt from my post in the discussion:
"One of the major issues on the salt is the traction, it often has a cf of .4, that is if there was 1,000 lbs on the driving wheels one would only be able to get 400 lbs of traction out of them. Note that many if not all of those that try to make it above 300 mph use multiple engines driving both the front and rear axles, 4WD."
Note, cf = coefficient of friction.
Caleb Ramsby
The search function here is automated to only go back 30 days, you need to set it for longer if you want to do a true search.
[steamautomobile.com]
Exerpt from my post in the discussion:
"One of the major issues on the salt is the traction, it often has a cf of .4, that is if there was 1,000 lbs on the driving wheels one would only be able to get 400 lbs of traction out of them. Note that many if not all of those that try to make it above 300 mph use multiple engines driving both the front and rear axles, 4WD."
Note, cf = coefficient of friction.
Caleb Ramsby
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 23, 2011 08:39AM |
Admin Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 2,107 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 23, 2011 11:57AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 358 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 23, 2011 12:50PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 17 |
So the salt must behave like a viscous fluid above the 0.4 static cf threshold. If it did not, then no amount of extra power would get you over the speed equivalent to 0.4 x the downward force on the wheels, if aerodynamic drag is held constant. Therefore, the engine starts to dump loads of power into heating up the tires and salt as the salt begins to slip, with a little bit of extra forward speed to show for it.
Yes?
Ted Iskenderian
Yes?
Ted Iskenderian
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 24, 2011 08:03AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 338 |
Ted-
I don't see the salt acting like a viscous fluid...what I've seen there is at the beginning of Speed Week, the course is hard pack salt-similar to a hard pack dirt track-but as the Week wears on and more vehicles use the track it becomes more like loose sand in some areas. Mid Week, they usually move the coarse over to a parallel coarse to make use of the harder, more compacted salt.
If you look at the attached pix-one of them is looking down the Long Coarse at the start line, and you can see the black rubber marks on the salt as everyone is trying to get up to speed before the 2 mile timing begins. That's a good example of how hard the salt is in some areas. It's actually pretty variable, with some areas being relatively soft-some hard...and everything in between. Overall, it's a beautiful surface to use for going VERY FAST-and I'm planning to try it out in August!
Happy Holidays!!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
I don't see the salt acting like a viscous fluid...what I've seen there is at the beginning of Speed Week, the course is hard pack salt-similar to a hard pack dirt track-but as the Week wears on and more vehicles use the track it becomes more like loose sand in some areas. Mid Week, they usually move the coarse over to a parallel coarse to make use of the harder, more compacted salt.
If you look at the attached pix-one of them is looking down the Long Coarse at the start line, and you can see the black rubber marks on the salt as everyone is trying to get up to speed before the 2 mile timing begins. That's a good example of how hard the salt is in some areas. It's actually pretty variable, with some areas being relatively soft-some hard...and everything in between. Overall, it's a beautiful surface to use for going VERY FAST-and I'm planning to try it out in August!
Happy Holidays!!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 24, 2011 11:43AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Yes and it also depends on if the salt company has been pumping brine or not. We found one year that in parts the salt was quite damp and the car wanted to slither all over the place.
So what happened to using the runway at the Cape??
Might be a good idea if you guys ran the car at full power on a chassis dyno first and see what power it does or does not generate and for how long.
Jim
So what happened to using the runway at the Cape??
Might be a good idea if you guys ran the car at full power on a chassis dyno first and see what power it does or does not generate and for how long.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 25, 2011 07:37PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 338 |
Jim-
Of course we're gonna run the MK5 on the dyno before we install it in the Streamliner-quite a few times actually. We want to make sure everything's running right before we make it less accessible by bolting it into the car. A chassis dyno will be a nice tool if we can find one that the narrow car will fit on, but if we can't-we may have to make do with a bit of preliminary testing on the 1/2 mile driveway behind the shop-and the rest on the 3 mile runway at the Space Center!
We're still planning to do our track testing at the Kennedy Space Center-it's only 3 hours up the road and has 3 miles of primo concrete for us to use....did you somehow get the idea that we were planning to go to Bonneville without properly testing the engine and vehicle?
Of course, even extensive testing does not guarantee anything-especially future performance-when running at the Salt Flats. The weather-as well as salt conditions-is variable, and either one of those alone can make a big difference.
We'll do as well as possible with our testing program to make sure everything is right-then go out to the Flats-give it our best shot-and have some fun!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
Of course we're gonna run the MK5 on the dyno before we install it in the Streamliner-quite a few times actually. We want to make sure everything's running right before we make it less accessible by bolting it into the car. A chassis dyno will be a nice tool if we can find one that the narrow car will fit on, but if we can't-we may have to make do with a bit of preliminary testing on the 1/2 mile driveway behind the shop-and the rest on the 3 mile runway at the Space Center!
We're still planning to do our track testing at the Kennedy Space Center-it's only 3 hours up the road and has 3 miles of primo concrete for us to use....did you somehow get the idea that we were planning to go to Bonneville without properly testing the engine and vehicle?
Of course, even extensive testing does not guarantee anything-especially future performance-when running at the Salt Flats. The weather-as well as salt conditions-is variable, and either one of those alone can make a big difference.
We'll do as well as possible with our testing program to make sure everything is right-then go out to the Flats-give it our best shot-and have some fun!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 26, 2011 02:03PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 215 |
Chuk,
The discussion on the coefficient of friction of around .4 is not a problem with the 100HP Mark 5 car. If we assume that the weight on the drivewheels is about 1500# X .4 = 600 pounds thrust force on the two back driving wheels. 100 horsepower @ 150mph(enough to set a record) is a thrust at that speed of only 250 pounds of thrust. We are not concerned about wheel slipping acceleration but force at speed with your calculated low wind and rolling resistance. This amounts to a coefficient of friction of only .167 requirement before wheel slippage.
Best, George
The discussion on the coefficient of friction of around .4 is not a problem with the 100HP Mark 5 car. If we assume that the weight on the drivewheels is about 1500# X .4 = 600 pounds thrust force on the two back driving wheels. 100 horsepower @ 150mph(enough to set a record) is a thrust at that speed of only 250 pounds of thrust. We are not concerned about wheel slipping acceleration but force at speed with your calculated low wind and rolling resistance. This amounts to a coefficient of friction of only .167 requirement before wheel slippage.
Best, George
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 26, 2011 05:10PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 338 |
George-
You would definitely know more about such details than I!! But remember that the total weight of the Streamliner is around 1600lbs-I say about because I haven't weighed it yet-and we're estimating that the front/rear weight distribution is pretty close to being equal. So the weight on the rear wheels would be approximately 800 lbs, and that puts the thrust of the rear wheels a bit closer to the amount we're gonna need to get the speed we want. It still doesn't look like there'll be a problem with slippage-but since I've gained so much weight over the Holidays-we've got even more "wiggle" room!!
Are you going to make it to the Sacramento Steam Meet and Tech Conference?
Cheers--Chuk
You would definitely know more about such details than I!! But remember that the total weight of the Streamliner is around 1600lbs-I say about because I haven't weighed it yet-and we're estimating that the front/rear weight distribution is pretty close to being equal. So the weight on the rear wheels would be approximately 800 lbs, and that puts the thrust of the rear wheels a bit closer to the amount we're gonna need to get the speed we want. It still doesn't look like there'll be a problem with slippage-but since I've gained so much weight over the Holidays-we've got even more "wiggle" room!!
Are you going to make it to the Sacramento Steam Meet and Tech Conference?
Cheers--Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 30, 2011 08:17PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 338 |
Happy New Year-Everyone!!
This has been a very nice year-for me-and for the Land Steam Record Project. We've come a long way over the past 12 months...this time last year, I was pretty disappointed that I wasn't gonna make my goal of having a rolling chassis by January 1st. But I did get it done and rolling a week or so later-and all that stress just melted away.....
My point is-that even though we've had some ups and downs thru the past year...overall things are looking good!! The upcoming year promises to be even more fun than the last one.
I want to give a special thanks to everyone who has contributed to the Project-both monetarily and in spirit....without your help and support-we would not be this far along with our Project. Keep in mind-the present record holders-Team Inspiration-took 10 years and a huge chunk of $$s, to get to a point where they could raise the Land Steam Record by 3 miles per hour.
Obviously, we don't have a Record yet...and we have quite a bit of work left to do before the Record is ours. We do have the vehicle that can do the job-we need an engine to propel it(Cyclone tells me that we'll have it sometime in the 1st quarter of '12), and after that, we're going to need more funds to get the vehicle thru our test program at the Kennedy Space Center and on to the Salt Flats.
The reason we have progressed so quickly has partly to do with the fact that SACA members have put their $upport behind us, partly because Cyclone has stepped up to the plate-helped with the build of the body and with the various details related to making the Vehicle ready to run, and thirdly-by being very economically conscious and frugal with the finances-without compromising safety or quality.
So-this year we're gonna keep at it, and have a lot of fun setting a new Land Steam Record--Go Team Steam-USA!
Happy New Year!!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
This has been a very nice year-for me-and for the Land Steam Record Project. We've come a long way over the past 12 months...this time last year, I was pretty disappointed that I wasn't gonna make my goal of having a rolling chassis by January 1st. But I did get it done and rolling a week or so later-and all that stress just melted away.....
My point is-that even though we've had some ups and downs thru the past year...overall things are looking good!! The upcoming year promises to be even more fun than the last one.
I want to give a special thanks to everyone who has contributed to the Project-both monetarily and in spirit....without your help and support-we would not be this far along with our Project. Keep in mind-the present record holders-Team Inspiration-took 10 years and a huge chunk of $$s, to get to a point where they could raise the Land Steam Record by 3 miles per hour.
Obviously, we don't have a Record yet...and we have quite a bit of work left to do before the Record is ours. We do have the vehicle that can do the job-we need an engine to propel it(Cyclone tells me that we'll have it sometime in the 1st quarter of '12), and after that, we're going to need more funds to get the vehicle thru our test program at the Kennedy Space Center and on to the Salt Flats.
The reason we have progressed so quickly has partly to do with the fact that SACA members have put their $upport behind us, partly because Cyclone has stepped up to the plate-helped with the build of the body and with the various details related to making the Vehicle ready to run, and thirdly-by being very economically conscious and frugal with the finances-without compromising safety or quality.
So-this year we're gonna keep at it, and have a lot of fun setting a new Land Steam Record--Go Team Steam-USA!
Happy New Year!!
Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! December 31, 2011 08:02PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 10 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 01, 2012 12:03PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Chuk,
Running just the engine on their dyno is not good enough, especially when the run is stopped frequently for adjustments or whatever. Sure, this is done first.
What counts is the whole car on a chassis dyno running all by itself and at full power for enough time to be able to say that the Cyclone can survive and all systems function.
Every good race car shop now has a chassis dyno, usually a Clayton. They are mounted flush in the floor, or like the one Besler had, portable with ramps and there is no problem at all getting a real low car to fit, we did.
No modern race car shop troday would be complete without one. Usually two, the chassis dyno and a separate engine dyno. At least around here that holds true.
Usually good to 200 hp on the rear wheels and maybe a lot more now considering the hot Corvettes, Porsches and ALM cars.
The area around Daytona should be loaded with them, considering all the NASCAR and other races at the Daytona track. Get on the phone and call around,
Most definitely run the car at full power for at least fifteen minutes and be real sure the Cyclone can stand this. The success of the car is so very important to everyone, you guys just have to be sure it will do the job and survive. Do this quietly and very privately untiil the car works like it must to be competative and break the old record. I found that renting the dyno on a Sunday was good to insure privacy and NO spectators. Then go to Canaveral and Bonneville when you know for sure the car works as expected.
We did this with my old Bonneviile steamer and hard dyno running does reveal where the weak points are lying in wait to trip you up. 350 hp at 85K rpm with the Lear turbine.
Then considerable road testing on empty farm roads which was thrilling to say the least.
We all sure wish you and Cyclone well.
Jim
Running just the engine on their dyno is not good enough, especially when the run is stopped frequently for adjustments or whatever. Sure, this is done first.
What counts is the whole car on a chassis dyno running all by itself and at full power for enough time to be able to say that the Cyclone can survive and all systems function.
Every good race car shop now has a chassis dyno, usually a Clayton. They are mounted flush in the floor, or like the one Besler had, portable with ramps and there is no problem at all getting a real low car to fit, we did.
No modern race car shop troday would be complete without one. Usually two, the chassis dyno and a separate engine dyno. At least around here that holds true.
Usually good to 200 hp on the rear wheels and maybe a lot more now considering the hot Corvettes, Porsches and ALM cars.
The area around Daytona should be loaded with them, considering all the NASCAR and other races at the Daytona track. Get on the phone and call around,
Most definitely run the car at full power for at least fifteen minutes and be real sure the Cyclone can stand this. The success of the car is so very important to everyone, you guys just have to be sure it will do the job and survive. Do this quietly and very privately untiil the car works like it must to be competative and break the old record. I found that renting the dyno on a Sunday was good to insure privacy and NO spectators. Then go to Canaveral and Bonneville when you know for sure the car works as expected.
We did this with my old Bonneviile steamer and hard dyno running does reveal where the weak points are lying in wait to trip you up. 350 hp at 85K rpm with the Lear turbine.
Then considerable road testing on empty farm roads which was thrilling to say the least.
We all sure wish you and Cyclone well.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 01, 2012 01:55PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 104 |
"Then considerable road testing on empty farm roads which was thrilling to say the least"
Not wishing to get to far off topic Jim but it is your own fault as you are an excellent raconteur.
Please post a more detail if you have the time. I'm sure the audience here as well as myself will enjoy any recounting of what must have been an amazing experience.
Cheers
Mark
Not wishing to get to far off topic Jim but it is your own fault as you are an excellent raconteur.
Please post a more detail if you have the time. I'm sure the audience here as well as myself will enjoy any recounting of what must have been an amazing experience.
Cheers
Mark
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 01, 2012 04:31PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Hi Mark and Happy New Year to you,
Well, attribute it to good single malt Scotch last night, McCallum to be precise.
As you know I was offered all the steam hardware from the closed Lear Motors, that got this started. One of those "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse" kind of things.
First of all an in-out marine gearbox was installed; but the thought of that turbine screaming with no load quickly changed things.
Then a well beefed up Chrysler TorqueFlite was installed. The first road test here ripped the torque converter and low gears to shreds. You wouldn't think that a little single stage steam turbine had that much starting torque; but it did. Bob Barber later said that it develops three times the running torque when starting from rest, the largest velocity mismatch. I wish I knew how one calculates the starting torque of a single stage impuise turbine; but I sure don't. None of my books were any help at all.
350 hp @ 85K rpm, 1200 psig @ 1100°F and 8.5 MBTU burner which kept up with the steam demand just fine, 5500 lbs/hr. Barney Becker and I designed the burner on his kitchen table over lunch on three napkins. Primary air was I think 1400 cfm @13" and it drew 450 amps at 24 volts, with secondary air inlet slots half way down and final inlets at the flange to keep it from burning out. An axial flow war surplus air blower and it screamed like a Banshee.
Then as nothing suitable short of an Allison transmission from a Peterbilt truck would seem to be stong enough, a solid connection was made between the Lear gearbox outlet and the Cadillac El Dorado differential we used. The strongest then and a nice low ratio, 2.73-1 I think. I used the 13 nozzle bus turbine with the Chevy Monte Carlo gearbox to make it come out with the right output speed. The Lear gearbox was something like a 14-1 reduction, it and the turbines were built by Barber-Nichols Co.
So to compensate for the huge water consumption at startup, a Salsbury 3-1 variable belt transmission from a snowmobile ran the big CAT water pump, only backwards. Overdrive 1-3 when starting and backing down to 1-1 at speed. Problem solved.
So, some months of static testing and being sure the control system worked right, we needed to find out if the car would actually start from rest and accelerate while still keeping the pressure up and the superheat where I wanted it, that the water feed idea really worked. We trucked the car to a road Rick knew about near Stockton out in the Central Valley of California to try it out under real conditions. A sort of semi abandoned farm road with about five miles of straight two lane pavement.
I climbed in and steamed it up and with a couple of people guarding the only side roads to keep some farmer from just wandering out without looking, which they do all the time.
I opened the throttle slowly while watching the gauges, just in case. The car accerated rather gently until the rpms came up. Now, this turbine was at it's best at 85,000 rpm; but around 40,000 rpm it felt like someone just opened up a secondary 200 hp engine, a real slam in the back. The car leaped forward with a vengence and got to what we later figured out was about 120 mph from what the tach was telling us. And I am trying to hold it straight on this narrow road and not fly into the ditches on the side!!
The end of the road was coming up and it only had two wheel brakes on the rear wheels, so I closed the throttle and hit the brakes. The car had no intention of slowing down and I am looking at a 90° bend in the road coming up. Since we hadn't installed the parachute yet, I was staring at this guys barbed wire fence and thinking that I am going right through it and out into the field before I can stop the damned thing. Fortunately it did stop right in the middle of the intersection.
A lengthly stop at the nearest bar was definitely in order on the way home and a change of shorts too, one shook up guy I will tell you. Yes, we now knew the car would run.
The next "road testing" was done at El Mirage dry lake before actually going to Bonneville for the official run. They had laid out a two mile circle where you could really go fast and that was the next test of the car. You were supposed to stay below 100 mph and just be sure your car was OK and thanks to leaking Lear throttle pintles, I am whizzing around the course at 156 mph, they had the timers going and I caught hell for that. When I told them that the throttles were leaking so badly that I could only shut off the burner and ride it out, all was forgiven, with highly raised eyebrows I must say.
When Bob Barber asked to buy the car later, I was only too glad to be rid of it. What can you do with a hasbeen old race car and a steamer to boot? As it turned out, Bill Harrah wanted the car for his museum in Reno and I was only too glad to see Bob donate the car. There it sits today and the turbine wheel makes a fine paper weight on my desk.
I trust Chuk and Harry can break the record without all this drama; but looking back, yes it was fun.
The story in greater detail is in two issues of our Journal.
Jim
Well, attribute it to good single malt Scotch last night, McCallum to be precise.
As you know I was offered all the steam hardware from the closed Lear Motors, that got this started. One of those "I made him an offer he couldn't refuse" kind of things.
First of all an in-out marine gearbox was installed; but the thought of that turbine screaming with no load quickly changed things.
Then a well beefed up Chrysler TorqueFlite was installed. The first road test here ripped the torque converter and low gears to shreds. You wouldn't think that a little single stage steam turbine had that much starting torque; but it did. Bob Barber later said that it develops three times the running torque when starting from rest, the largest velocity mismatch. I wish I knew how one calculates the starting torque of a single stage impuise turbine; but I sure don't. None of my books were any help at all.
350 hp @ 85K rpm, 1200 psig @ 1100°F and 8.5 MBTU burner which kept up with the steam demand just fine, 5500 lbs/hr. Barney Becker and I designed the burner on his kitchen table over lunch on three napkins. Primary air was I think 1400 cfm @13" and it drew 450 amps at 24 volts, with secondary air inlet slots half way down and final inlets at the flange to keep it from burning out. An axial flow war surplus air blower and it screamed like a Banshee.
Then as nothing suitable short of an Allison transmission from a Peterbilt truck would seem to be stong enough, a solid connection was made between the Lear gearbox outlet and the Cadillac El Dorado differential we used. The strongest then and a nice low ratio, 2.73-1 I think. I used the 13 nozzle bus turbine with the Chevy Monte Carlo gearbox to make it come out with the right output speed. The Lear gearbox was something like a 14-1 reduction, it and the turbines were built by Barber-Nichols Co.
So to compensate for the huge water consumption at startup, a Salsbury 3-1 variable belt transmission from a snowmobile ran the big CAT water pump, only backwards. Overdrive 1-3 when starting and backing down to 1-1 at speed. Problem solved.
So, some months of static testing and being sure the control system worked right, we needed to find out if the car would actually start from rest and accelerate while still keeping the pressure up and the superheat where I wanted it, that the water feed idea really worked. We trucked the car to a road Rick knew about near Stockton out in the Central Valley of California to try it out under real conditions. A sort of semi abandoned farm road with about five miles of straight two lane pavement.
I climbed in and steamed it up and with a couple of people guarding the only side roads to keep some farmer from just wandering out without looking, which they do all the time.
I opened the throttle slowly while watching the gauges, just in case. The car accerated rather gently until the rpms came up. Now, this turbine was at it's best at 85,000 rpm; but around 40,000 rpm it felt like someone just opened up a secondary 200 hp engine, a real slam in the back. The car leaped forward with a vengence and got to what we later figured out was about 120 mph from what the tach was telling us. And I am trying to hold it straight on this narrow road and not fly into the ditches on the side!!
The end of the road was coming up and it only had two wheel brakes on the rear wheels, so I closed the throttle and hit the brakes. The car had no intention of slowing down and I am looking at a 90° bend in the road coming up. Since we hadn't installed the parachute yet, I was staring at this guys barbed wire fence and thinking that I am going right through it and out into the field before I can stop the damned thing. Fortunately it did stop right in the middle of the intersection.
A lengthly stop at the nearest bar was definitely in order on the way home and a change of shorts too, one shook up guy I will tell you. Yes, we now knew the car would run.
The next "road testing" was done at El Mirage dry lake before actually going to Bonneville for the official run. They had laid out a two mile circle where you could really go fast and that was the next test of the car. You were supposed to stay below 100 mph and just be sure your car was OK and thanks to leaking Lear throttle pintles, I am whizzing around the course at 156 mph, they had the timers going and I caught hell for that. When I told them that the throttles were leaking so badly that I could only shut off the burner and ride it out, all was forgiven, with highly raised eyebrows I must say.
When Bob Barber asked to buy the car later, I was only too glad to be rid of it. What can you do with a hasbeen old race car and a steamer to boot? As it turned out, Bill Harrah wanted the car for his museum in Reno and I was only too glad to see Bob donate the car. There it sits today and the turbine wheel makes a fine paper weight on my desk.
I trust Chuk and Harry can break the record without all this drama; but looking back, yes it was fun.
The story in greater detail is in two issues of our Journal.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 01, 2012 07:18PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
I believe these are the two issues:
[www.steamautomobile.com]
[www.steamautomobile.com]
Caleb Ramsby
[www.steamautomobile.com]
[www.steamautomobile.com]
Caleb Ramsby
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 02, 2012 04:34AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 375 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 02, 2012 11:54AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Mike,
Actually there is more to our SACA Newsletter, Vol. 27 #1 as re-edited further for Karl; but never published. Pictures too if the site can handle the file size.
The site will not take the size of the file, I tried. The file size is way over the tiny thing we can use to attach files. Sorry about that. Private e-mail to me with your address and I will send it to you.
i would do this car differently if it ever was done again and aim for over 225 mph. It can be done, because so much more hardware is now on the market than when we did it.
There is even an unused Bonneville streamliner that used four Chrysler Hemi engines in tandem across the Bay that I can probably get very easily. More than enough room for the system that I would now use. Oh well, let someone else have the fun.
Jim
Actually there is more to our SACA Newsletter, Vol. 27 #1 as re-edited further for Karl; but never published. Pictures too if the site can handle the file size.
The site will not take the size of the file, I tried. The file size is way over the tiny thing we can use to attach files. Sorry about that. Private e-mail to me with your address and I will send it to you.
i would do this car differently if it ever was done again and aim for over 225 mph. It can be done, because so much more hardware is now on the market than when we did it.
There is even an unused Bonneville streamliner that used four Chrysler Hemi engines in tandem across the Bay that I can probably get very easily. More than enough room for the system that I would now use. Oh well, let someone else have the fun.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 02, 2012 02:38PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 104 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 02, 2012 09:18PM |
Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 2 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 03, 2012 11:32AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Since the new castings are available, I think, two new Bryan engines with one mounted on top of the other and the crankshaft gears meshing. Phase the cranksafts for equal power strokes. Actually one Bryan engine might be enough if the car could be kept on the light side. CAT feed pump.
Then back to the rear axle with the appropriate ratio to get the speed desired without having to overrev the engines, use the huge torque to do the accelerating.
Two Doble F engines could easily do the job too; but those are big engines compared to the Bryan. At Bonneville, economy in both steam consumption or fuel rate is not necessary; but brute force works just fine.
Lamont steam generator, concentric coil extended surface tubing except for the superheater and two coils down, outside firing tangential carburetor fed cyclone burner with a draft booster made from a Diesel turbo and of course non condensing. Burn pure algae bio fuel oil. 1500 psig @ 800°F. White type of throttle. Electric circulating pump.
Providing that the story is true that Goodyear is again making those special two ply smooth Bonneville tires, 5:00-20 if I have it right.
Whatever, definitely the KISS factor.
What would be interesting is to see what it would take to break the electric car record. That is fast as putting 400 volts and unlimited amps into a motor that runs on 220 volts does get them all excited and they do put out the power.
However, 307.7 average is one hard record to crack.
Personally, only wheel driven. These jet cars violate the spirit of the whole idea, why not just borrow an F-16 and taxi it fast???
Jim
Then back to the rear axle with the appropriate ratio to get the speed desired without having to overrev the engines, use the huge torque to do the accelerating.
Two Doble F engines could easily do the job too; but those are big engines compared to the Bryan. At Bonneville, economy in both steam consumption or fuel rate is not necessary; but brute force works just fine.
Lamont steam generator, concentric coil extended surface tubing except for the superheater and two coils down, outside firing tangential carburetor fed cyclone burner with a draft booster made from a Diesel turbo and of course non condensing. Burn pure algae bio fuel oil. 1500 psig @ 800°F. White type of throttle. Electric circulating pump.
Providing that the story is true that Goodyear is again making those special two ply smooth Bonneville tires, 5:00-20 if I have it right.
Whatever, definitely the KISS factor.
What would be interesting is to see what it would take to break the electric car record. That is fast as putting 400 volts and unlimited amps into a motor that runs on 220 volts does get them all excited and they do put out the power.
However, 307.7 average is one hard record to crack.
Personally, only wheel driven. These jet cars violate the spirit of the whole idea, why not just borrow an F-16 and taxi it fast???
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 03, 2012 05:48PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 03, 2012 06:05PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
Hey Jim,
Are the articles at the following link the expanded and full articles which you spoke of?
[www.firedragon.com]
I too am very curious to know if there have been any tests conducted on the Bryan in regards to its steam rate(s) and consumption.
Caleb Ramsby
Are the articles at the following link the expanded and full articles which you spoke of?
[www.firedragon.com]
I too am very curious to know if there have been any tests conducted on the Bryan in regards to its steam rate(s) and consumption.
Caleb Ramsby
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 04, 2012 10:08AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Peter-Caleb,
Yes, those are the three stories that I was trying to attach to the post.
And just who put it on the internet??? There is no reason to send anyone private stuff, as it means nothing these days. The Besler airplane video got there too and I sure didn't put it there. What I do like is that it is a really lousy VHS copy of a copy of a copy. Guess from now on my private data never gets sent to anyone that cannot be trusted.
I just love how people spread your data around without the courtesy of at least a call to see if it was OK to do so.
I seem to have heard that the Bryan water rate was around 14 lbs/hp/hr in sort cutoff. What with those good breathing piston valves, it might be right.
For such a car, I would assume this X 2 for two engines and spec the Lamont at full blast for some 3500 lbs/hr and depend on the overload capacity of the Lamont to take the car through the timing traps.
Since the Bryan technical data is supposed to still exist, perhaps someone would inquire about this. Considering how nice the Bryan engine is, my guess is yes, someone back then did record the water rate when the engine was on a dyno at the factory.
Jim
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 10:10AM by Jim Crank.
Yes, those are the three stories that I was trying to attach to the post.
And just who put it on the internet??? There is no reason to send anyone private stuff, as it means nothing these days. The Besler airplane video got there too and I sure didn't put it there. What I do like is that it is a really lousy VHS copy of a copy of a copy. Guess from now on my private data never gets sent to anyone that cannot be trusted.
I just love how people spread your data around without the courtesy of at least a call to see if it was OK to do so.
I seem to have heard that the Bryan water rate was around 14 lbs/hp/hr in sort cutoff. What with those good breathing piston valves, it might be right.
For such a car, I would assume this X 2 for two engines and spec the Lamont at full blast for some 3500 lbs/hr and depend on the overload capacity of the Lamont to take the car through the timing traps.
Since the Bryan technical data is supposed to still exist, perhaps someone would inquire about this. Considering how nice the Bryan engine is, my guess is yes, someone back then did record the water rate when the engine was on a dyno at the factory.
Jim
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 10:10AM by Jim Crank.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 04, 2012 12:29PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,771 |
Jim who has the new Bryan cylinder blocks?
One of Chuk’s Bryan engines needs a cylinder block.
I’ve been practicing 3-D CAD with that cylinder block. Not there yet it’s a learning curve for me that I’m not use to. Not sure what I’ll use it for either at my age.
One of Chuk’s Bryan engines needs a cylinder block.
I’ve been practicing 3-D CAD with that cylinder block. Not there yet it’s a learning curve for me that I’m not use to. Not sure what I’ll use it for either at my age.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 04, 2012 11:34PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
Hey Jim,
Here is a link to the main steam section of the web site, scroll all the way down for its maker:
[www.firedragon.com]
I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but he is producing an archive of solid steam information that would otherwise be lost, he is using original photos and stories. Note that most of the steam work he has covered there is by people who are deceased, where else can a curious mind find this information? To be very frank, no one lives forever and once someone has passed what information they havn't shared is more often then not lost. I am being a bit emotional here because a very wise and sharing blacksmith recently passed away at the young age of 64, although I never met him in person I learned a lot, as have literally thousands of others, by paying attention to his advice in the blacksmithing field. Although he shared a great deal of his knowledge, what he never got around to sharing is now lost forever.
Back to steam, 14 lbs per hr is excellent for a simple! Better then mounting both engines to drive the rear axle would be to mount one to the front and one to the rear both running off of the same boiler and using the same throttle. The big issue with going very fast on the salt is getting traction for the drive wheels, as I noted before the fastest run with a drive going to all wheels. Yes, at the very least shoot for the sparky powered record, with a super slippery body it should be possible. The Buckey Bullet 1 has the USA sparky powered record at 314.958 mph, it weighed 4,000 lbs and had but 400 hp. From what I can find it had a coefficient of drag of .22, don't know the frontal area.
Here is an interesting paper I just ran accross which shows the analysis of the shifting scheme for the Buckey Bullet 1. [kb.osu.edu]
Caleb Ramsby
Here is a link to the main steam section of the web site, scroll all the way down for its maker:
[www.firedragon.com]
I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but he is producing an archive of solid steam information that would otherwise be lost, he is using original photos and stories. Note that most of the steam work he has covered there is by people who are deceased, where else can a curious mind find this information? To be very frank, no one lives forever and once someone has passed what information they havn't shared is more often then not lost. I am being a bit emotional here because a very wise and sharing blacksmith recently passed away at the young age of 64, although I never met him in person I learned a lot, as have literally thousands of others, by paying attention to his advice in the blacksmithing field. Although he shared a great deal of his knowledge, what he never got around to sharing is now lost forever.
Back to steam, 14 lbs per hr is excellent for a simple! Better then mounting both engines to drive the rear axle would be to mount one to the front and one to the rear both running off of the same boiler and using the same throttle. The big issue with going very fast on the salt is getting traction for the drive wheels, as I noted before the fastest run with a drive going to all wheels. Yes, at the very least shoot for the sparky powered record, with a super slippery body it should be possible. The Buckey Bullet 1 has the USA sparky powered record at 314.958 mph, it weighed 4,000 lbs and had but 400 hp. From what I can find it had a coefficient of drag of .22, don't know the frontal area.
Here is an interesting paper I just ran accross which shows the analysis of the shifting scheme for the Buckey Bullet 1. [kb.osu.edu]
Caleb Ramsby
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