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US Land Steam Record!!

Posted by chuk williams 
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 03, 2011 10:23AM
Caleb-

No--we'll still do our testing on the Space Center runway-it's 3 miles of primo concrete, just waiting for us!! It's closeby and available-just right for our purposes. I doubt that we'll be able to get up to speed quick enough to actually set a record there, but it's a possibility.

Any developmental problems we may have will be much easier to deal with there...it's just a few hours from either my shop or the Cyclone facility.

So-as soon as we get things in order, we'll get our test runs going and see how it goes!


Chuk

TEAM STEAM USA
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 03, 2011 12:48PM
How are the dynomometer tests of the streamliner coming?
HLS
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 05, 2011 12:58PM
Hi Guys
A little up date on the LSR.
It was only eight mounths ago that we were able to get our hands on Chuk's frame. He did an exellent job on it. Because of this we desided to add more than just the engine. When it came in we had to measure it up and create a drawing for the porpose of fitting a lot of the equipment and the design of the body. The high and low pressure pump had to be driven electric rather than by the engine and many other things not found on a normal car. Early on Chuck was hauling the chassie back and fourth as there was a lot of work to do. As things on our side progressed Chuk did a lot of work on the car here and we were able to lend him a hand on it. I am not disipointed in the car as the workmanship is exellent. It has to be safe and you can not take short cuts. Because we did not make Bonniville on the first go around it does not disturb me near as much as traveling 2500 miles to get there and having a problem. There are so many systems that are not necessarily engine related that can give a problem. Testing is an absolute neccesity. Jim can tell you what can happen when people push things before they are ready. A special trailer was put together as well as a tow vehicle. Money still has to be raised. It is getting very close. I have put in a lot of my own weekends and money as I have faith in Chuk and the engine and the project. I think the extra effort suppllied by Cyclone probably speeded up the project by at least a year or two. This project is not the only thing we are working on as we still have our day job. We have a number of paying customers that come first. We have two Dynos, only one is large enough for the MK5. I think a full story of this would be real cool as It is a lot of work and a lot fun.
I donot know how long it took for the Rocket , but we have spent far less time on this than the the other cars. Jim is the only other one that can tell you what an undertaking it is. We still need team members

Team LSR
Harry
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 05, 2011 05:47PM
Quote
HLS
Early on Chuck was hauling the chassie back and fourth as there was a lot of work to do. As things on our side progressed Chuk did a lot of work on the car here and we were able to lend him a hand on it. I am not disipointed in the car as the workmanship is exellent. It has to be safe

Im going to have to agree with Jim here, He's seen his share of mass production runs. When Harry say's "I am not disipointed in the car as the workmanship is exellent" it speak's volumes.

Im not surprised Harry has not released the DYNO results, I would bet there spending alot of time determining an optimized final drive ratio...

We would love to see steam comeback with "flying colors" With the LSR run, I would say there is good factory support (Cyclone) and Chuk understands the cars vehicle dynamics, and it takes alot of thought from both angles...

So im saying there,s a fair shot... Ive had this LSR attempt in my dreams for the last week, some have the car only going 80mph and others are running at 160mph. So its anyones guess at this point. Hat's off to the Cyclone Crew they deserve the spotlight.

Jeremy
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 07, 2011 11:23AM
Jeremy Holmes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Im not surprised Harry has not released the DYNO
> results, I would bet there spending alot of time
> determining an optimized final drive ratio...
>
>
> Jeremy


You're not even curious? I sure am, since dyno results have been sorta promised for a very long time now.
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 08, 2011 02:29PM
Hi Terry,

Quote
Heavy Steamer
You're not even curious? I sure am

If Bhp is compared hp at the rear wheels, they are not the same. Once Harry puts that number out there, he wont be able to take it back. I would imagion those guys are making sure that they have all there t's crossed and i's dotted.

I would hope Harry would release those dyno numbers as soon as possible.

Jeremy
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 08, 2011 04:02PM
Jeremy. With a fixed drive ratio the HP at wheels would be very close to the engine HP. There should be very little loss to gearing.

I am not interested in the HP. I wont to see the torque to RPM graph. That will tell me more then any HP number. It may not be possable to put out the max torque due to strenght of meterials or constriction.

Andy
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 08, 2011 06:39PM
Quote
Andy
It may not be possable to put out the max torque due to strenght of meterials or constriction.

This illustrates my point exactly. Hey, if you can use a "push car" why not, I believe this is permitted with the LSR runs. If one is targeting a "top-speed" this will be determined by final drive ratio and engine rpm. Then when you account for the vehicle GVW and aerodynamics, you can determine the torque needed, its my guess that cutting that GVW is what makes the run sustainable... Who actually knows how long that process takes?

Jeremy
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 08, 2011 09:22PM
PUSH CAR!!!!! HMPFT i dont recall the brits using a push car. No offense but using a push car isnt my idea of having a power plant capable of breaking a record if it cant do it from a stop. KMA
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 08, 2011 09:37PM
I found a documentary of an earlier steam LSR attempt....

[www.youtube.com]

Ken
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 09, 2011 11:49AM
Although the "push car" route would be cheaper, we've not heard from Cyclone one way or the other.

Based on information "not released" from Cyclone I would recommend a 2 speed power-glide automatic transmission.. Im not sure if the engine can rev to 8000rpm, but "drive-start" could easily achieved with the transmission and that second gear would get you to 160mph in second and 80mph in first.

[www.gearvendors.com]
htp://www.gearvendors.com/racing.html#land

[www.landracing.com]
htp://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=6121.0

When working with IC engines "Vehicle Dynamics" is stressed "big-time" the same should be true for steam machines....


Jeremy
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 09, 2011 09:01PM
Perhaps you folks could take some time to research land speed attempts. These are not drag races or road tests of standard vehicles. They are top speed attempts only. They are rolling technical billboards, not functional car road tests. Push starting is the standard for streamliners! Do a Google search on “push truck Bonneville streamliner” or go to youtube.com and search for “Bonneville streamliner” and try to find a streamliner that started from a standstill.
An article at [www.caranddriver.com] (“Got Hybrid? - Over 130 mph—in a Prius”) describes a benign Prius attempt:
“At the starting line, I could feel the gentle thump of our push truck, a Toyota Tundra, hitting the rear bumper bar. Push trucks are a tradition at Bonneville, used to help the rods and streamliners get rolling on their tall gear ratios.”

Chuk and the gang are deliberate and focused. They have plenty of outside input where they may be lacking. Time spent in preparation will help to guarantee their success.
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 09, 2011 10:56PM
Push trucks are traditional because the "traditional" method of power production is internal combustion, which can't produce any torque unless the engine is already spinning.

Steam engines can produce a massive quantity of torque from a stall, depending of course on the engine dimensions, cutoff and boiler pressure.

Ben has stated numerous times that Fred Marriot said he felt the tiller get light when opening up the Stanley Rockets throttle! That only had one gear ratio, two cylinders and was geared at around 350 engine revs per mile. Nutz calculated that it could accelerate on par with a Corvette ZR1, don't know which year of Vette production though.

Look guys, land speed records are about brute force, brute force comes from big boilers giving steam to big engines geared nice and slow. For steam to get back one top of the wheel drive land speed records, like they were 105 years ago with the Stanley, it will take brute force.

Caleb Ramsby
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 09, 2011 11:42PM
Miscellaneous: For land speed records, GVW is not as important as the smallest total frontal area possible. At speed, a heavier vehicle with the proper weight distribution on the proper axles is more stable than a lighter vehicle without any weight to transfer. A good blend of high horse power, smallest vehicle frontal area, and the best weight distribution for the track conditions all work together in making a successful run. What works best one day, may not be the ideal combination on another day. A higher speed can be set on a hot day with thinner air, than on a colder day with heavier air. The colder heavier air gives more air resistance. And.. the set up that works best for handling on asphalt tracks, may not be the cat's meow for the Bonneville Salt track. We wish you the best. Steam on!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2011 04:25PM by SSsssteamer.
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 10, 2011 02:00PM
Jeremy Holmes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Terry,
>
>
> You're not even curious? I sure am
>
>Once Harry puts that number out
> there, he wont be able to take it back. I would
> imagion those guys are making sure that they have
> all there t's crossed and i's dotted.
>
> I would hope Harry would release those dyno
> numbers as soon as possible.
>
> Jeremy


Putting out dyno results in no way ties Harry down to anything. The dyno is a development tool. I would not expect final results at this stage of the MkV engine development, but they will point out the areas that need further work.

For Harry: Is the MkV engine operating supercritical right now?
HLS
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 10, 2011 04:18PM
Heavy S
The first plans for the LSR where to run a double heat exchanger using 21"wheels The avalibility of the 21"wheels were a problem. so we had to use 23" diameter wheels. there are only so many made each year. We have a fixed gear ratio so we are running at a slightly longer cutoff for the needed torque for the larger diameter tires. When we did some draw bar tests on the car it showed that it would be better to run the standard engine for the first runs as it showed that we could do the record with out the additional heat exchanger. The pressure will be at 2500psi for these tests and 2500rpm. of course the pressure will be increased as well as an additional heatexchanger at a later date.
Now about the dyno tests ...we run dyno tests for a lot of reasons not just to see how fast it will go...,. be patient... The last time I was pushed about this data on the dyno was on our MK2 engine. It as it was over 30% efficiency . Not much said after that. Chuk still needs your support there are still things to do plus the travel expences. Those of you that have seen the LSR car know that it is the real thing and can appreciate the effort that it takes. Don't just sit on the side lines and be judgemental , be part of the team.
Harry
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 10, 2011 07:31PM
Now we got a conversation going on here thumbs up

Harry thats a useful nugget of info
Quote
HLS
The pressure will be at 2500psi for these tests and 2500rpm. of course the pressure will be increased as well as an additional heatexchanger at a later date.

Last I heard you guys were messing around with variable lift on the mechanical injection system(for throttling). I cant help but to mention that I also have seen that 1 to 1 relation between crankshaft rpm and admission pressure. Obviously if you increase input pressure the result will be increased engine rpm. The one thing I discovered is that actuation speed of the valve pintle is crucial in maintaining good engine rev's and to keep the 1 to 1 ratio linier. I encountered something simular with an (my) electro-magnetic valve. The example is that with a supply pressure of 500psi, the engine would run 500rpm, and at 1500psi 1500rpm etc.

I always attributed this to the compression ratio or what you guys call clearance. Ive also measured heat generated relative to the degree of compression.

Go Chuk! and Team Steam!

Jeremy
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 10, 2011 10:29PM
Jeremy, The relation of pressure to speed is nothing new. I have ald books from the 1930's with that in them. But the load was liner. That how they are expected to act. A car does not have a a liner. It varies with the square of the speed. So you would not get the same result in a vehical. And I think that Harry has stated the 2500 RPM number before. The previous engins were running around that RPM.

I have stayed away from speculation, but If any thing I would suspect they are having a harder time geting the low RPM torque under control. As Harry said ther are using larger diameter wheels and raised the pressure to compensate. That would mean more of a torque load. And I can imigne that engine can put out tremendious torque at low RPM. The Stanley engines could twist them selves into a prezel wiith the torque thay put out.

Harry. If I am right, use a pressure regulator and a bypass valve.
HLS
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 11, 2011 09:32AM
Hi Guys
The cam is varible and can be moved even as the engine is running. The throttle is separate. O course the longer the cutoff the higher the torque but the higher the water rate. There is a pressure regulators and a bypass and it works quit well and is easily set even while the engine is running. This engine has been run to over 3200 psi and over 3600rpm as that is the ultimate goal but not at this time as we are geared to turn 2500 rpm with this size heat exchanger. Balancing every thing to the car has to be done. The water tank from the car is sitting next to the dyno as every thing has to be as it would be in the car. I will try to answer your technical questions if I can, however there are some things that have to do with future business that I canot discuss for obvious reasons
Thanks for the support guys, keep Chuk rolling
Harry
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 11, 2011 12:51PM
HLS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heavy S
> The first plans for the LSR where to run a double
> heat exchanger using 21"wheels The avalibility of
> the 21"wheels were a problem. so we had to use 23"
> diameter wheels. there are only so many made each
> year. We have a fixed gear ratio so we are
> running at a slightly longer cutoff for the needed
> torque for the larger diameter tires. When we did
> some draw bar tests on the car it showed that it
> would be better to run the standard engine for the
> first runs as it showed that we could do the
> record with out the additional heat exchanger.
> The pressure will be at 2500psi for these tests
> and 2500rpm. of course the pressure will be
> increased as well as an additional heatexchanger
> at a later date.
> Now about the dyno tests ...we run dyno tests
> for a lot of reasons not just to see how fast it
> will go...,. be patient... The last time I was
> pushed about this data on the dyno was on our MK2
> engine. It as it was over 30% efficiency .
> Not much said after that. Chuk still needs your
> support there are still things to do plus the
> travel expences. Those of you that have seen the
> LSR car know that it is the real thing and can
> appreciate the effort that it takes. Don't just
> sit on the side lines and be judgemental , be part
> of the team.
> Harry


Too bad about not being able to get the size wheels you had planned on but that can be worked around as you are doing. What is the fixed rear end drive ratio? Is the 23 inches the outside working diameter of the drive wheels including tires? Is 2500 psi/ 2500rpm what you are using in the current dyno runs? What cutoff are you using? I am an engineer (mechanical) and I understand what dynos are for and what they can and cannot do. AS an engineer I operate with data, good data. I have some steam experience having operated and managed overhaul of naval nuclear submarine powerplants. I also lived off the grid for 19 years making our electricity with steam and in the late 1980's designed, built and developed a steam outboard motor which I campaigned around the northwestern states. I was one of the earlier financial contributers to the streamliner project and I see my name is on your trailer, thanks. I don't think I've been judgemental at all, only asked for information which has been very slow coming. I only want to help and to see this project succeed. I won't be a blind cheerleader, however.

tw
HLS
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 12, 2011 04:38PM
Hi Tw
There is a lot to say about this car and there are a lot of people who have their own questions. I cannot give out all information as we have some patents pending and I am sorry that I can not answer every thing but I will try. The gear ratio is 1/1 as it was originaly designed for a larger heat exchanger and 21" wheels. The rolling resistance was low, enough to run with a stock engine. 100hp at 3600rpm is 140# torque running at a lower loaded rpm ment we will run at 10% cutoff instead of 5% because we will need 200# torque. After runs that are necessary we will install the larger heat exchanger and run it supercritical. This is as much information that you should need to do your own calculations. Glad to be a Cycloner.
Your outboard motor sounds very interesting. do you have pictures to share or data?

Harry
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 12, 2011 10:18PM
Harry, Can you say what the displacement of that engine is?

Also the actual expansion ratio. At exhaust port opening.

Andy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2011 10:20PM by steamerandy.
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 13, 2011 08:21AM
HLS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Tw
> There is a lot to say about this car and there
> are a lot of people who have their own questions.
> I cannot give out all information as we have some
> patents pending and I am sorry that I can not
> answer every thing but I will try. The gear
> ratio is 1/1 as it was originaly designed for a
> larger heat exchanger and 21" wheels. The rolling
> resistance was low, enough to run with a stock
> engine. 100hp at 3600rpm is 140# torque running
> at a lower loaded rpm ment we will run at 10%
> cutoff instead of 5% because we will need 200#
> torque. After runs that are necessary we will
> install the larger heat exchanger and run it
> supercritical. This is as much information that
> you should need to do your own calculations.
> Glad to be a Cycloner.
> Your outboard motor sounds very interesting.
> do you have pictures to share or data?
>
> Harry


Hi Harry,

Thanks for the smidge of information. I can now see what your speed goals are for the car. Of course there are lots of things I'd like to know, but we will maybe work that out. Here is some info on the o utboard: [www.northweststeamsociety.org]
My computer is on its last legs so correspondence may not be too good for a while.

Keep your steam up,

Terry
HLS
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 13, 2011 09:05AM
HI Terry
That out board is realy cool.....If you can get the speed and weight we can get real close to the hp of the engine.... boat background...I am impressed. I can appreciate the amount of work it takes to do some thing like that. Wish I has the time however all steam projects are fun and big learning curves ..... I sure feels good to be on the down side of of this curve and have running engines.

Hi Andy
There is all the specs of the Mk 5 engine on the Cyclone website. www.cyclonepower.com .
Thanks Cycloners
Harry
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 13, 2011 09:35AM
Hi Harry, The horsepower for the outboard is about 8 1/2 max at 2000 rpm, 800 psi. I don't know why the NWSS didn't put that in their data sheet. I've had a lot of fun with it over the years, ran it in WA, OR, CA, NV, CO, and British Columbia in Canada. Have towed lots of gas boats, too.

Keep your steam up,

tw
HLS
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 13, 2011 12:46PM
Is the OB still running ?
H
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 13, 2011 04:08PM
It's in semiretirement, needs some work which I may get around to before too long.

t
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 15, 2011 01:41PM
Quote
heavysteamer
It's in semiretirement, needs some work which I may get around to before too long.

Neat - that's a really fun boat to watch.

- Bart

----
Bart Smaalders [smaalders.net]
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 17, 2011 11:05AM
October 17, 2011 With regards to the statement about the British not using a push vehicle; that is a long story. They really needed a push vehicle because they were using a turbine and it had no torque when starting off and used a great deal of steam to get going. A turbine has efficiency when the tip speed is about 2000 feet per second, which is half the steam speed coming from the nozzle. I am busy trying to remember what Jim Crank told me and hope I got it right. They could not use a push vehicle because of a design flaw. They had no clutch and no transmission and so were direct coupled to the axle and somewhere in the drive line was a threaded rod that would come unscrewed if the vehicle was pushed and the axle went faster than the turbine. As you might imagine this was a potential problem. Because of this problem and all they needed a longer run than was available at Bonneville to get up to speed, hence the use of the dry lake bed at the Air Force Base at great expense and inconvenience. In the end it worked out because it took several weeks to work the bugs out of the vehicle and to change the boilers as they burned out. At Bonneville they would have had only a few days to do the run. Therefore, it is not a fair comparison to say that the Brits did not need a push vehicle and that Chuk and Harry are somehow remiss in using one. On a related subject, I was visiting recently with a steam person from the UK and he told me that the British multipath boiler used a long rotary valve type of a thing to proportion the water flow from the very large manifold into the 40 or so very small diameter tubes in the boiler. I had always thought that they used the pressure reducing nozzle exactly like the Thompson Water Tube boiler, also made over in the UK. The reason is because Matt Candy said, on a conference call, that they had a little thing that looked like a penny whistle in front of each small tube. That is what is illustrated in the "John Thompson La Mont Steam Generators, Forced an controlled circulation" book from Wolverhampton, England, that is in my library. The penny whistle thing is mostly a strainer, but also a pressure reducer. Tom Kimmel
Re: US Land Steam Record!!
October 17, 2011 03:56PM
That's interesting Tom. The story here was that they didn't dare use a push truck in case the driver got scalded by steam - obviously nonsense as anyone who has washed his hands in the stream from the blowdowns of a Stanley will know. The steam at a couple of feet from the source is not hot, it's just fog. Perhaps that story was cover for the real explanation. The wrong thread explanation is still a bit strange though as it seems unlikely that pushing the car would accelerate the threaded connection any faster than the turbine, freed of the drive load, could speed up? We'll never know.

Mike
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