US Land Steam Record!!
Posted by chuk williams
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 24, 2010 01:57PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Quote
jakeengland
looking at the British steam car record I (and I'm sure everyone else) was largely unimpressed at the lack of speed. If anyone can email me a brief rundown of why their attempt was so poor,
I think it is quite unfair for you to ask such a thing. For all we know, there could be subsequent attampts planned. The only one who would know is them. Your barking up the wrong tree...
Jeremy
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 24, 2010 02:36PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Jeremy,
Jake sent me a private message asking the same question, I also answered him directly and to to the point and at length.
Jake and a fellow engineering student went to an open discussion meeting the Land Speed Team put on. In place of direct answers, they got the usual management tap dance act, beating around the bushes and never telling anything to answer the questions directly.
Sort of the same thing you now can read about concerning that BRM V-16 Formula One car and why it failed in the long run. in spite of quite similar corporate initial bragging and subsequent stone walling.
He is an engineering student with obviously an inquiring mind and he wants to also know why their record was such a tiny fraction over the one our car set after all that time and effort and money put into the car. It seems they would not give anyone a straight answer at this meeting
Harry's proposed car didn't come up for question, it was the Montagu financed British car record vs. our record that he was asking about.
Taken from purely a practical steam car engineering viewpoint, it is a wonder their car even ran. Considering what they did and what works, several of us wondered too why they did things they way they did. I think from a purely practical engineering standpoint and good thermodynamic practice, one can easily come up with a rather lengthly list of what went wrong.
It is very fair when one has some good past experience with many steam cars for many years and knows for fact what they need to have. He is asking what went wrong and just for an enquiring engineering student's education standpoint he has a right to know. PROVIDING one says that he can be wrong and what worked for him in the past, may not work for other people today. That was also stated.
Whether they do or do not rebuild the car or not was really not his question. He wanted to know why their car was so close to our car's record after all that effort.
Jim
Jake sent me a private message asking the same question, I also answered him directly and to to the point and at length.
Jake and a fellow engineering student went to an open discussion meeting the Land Speed Team put on. In place of direct answers, they got the usual management tap dance act, beating around the bushes and never telling anything to answer the questions directly.
Sort of the same thing you now can read about concerning that BRM V-16 Formula One car and why it failed in the long run. in spite of quite similar corporate initial bragging and subsequent stone walling.
He is an engineering student with obviously an inquiring mind and he wants to also know why their record was such a tiny fraction over the one our car set after all that time and effort and money put into the car. It seems they would not give anyone a straight answer at this meeting
Harry's proposed car didn't come up for question, it was the Montagu financed British car record vs. our record that he was asking about.
Taken from purely a practical steam car engineering viewpoint, it is a wonder their car even ran. Considering what they did and what works, several of us wondered too why they did things they way they did. I think from a purely practical engineering standpoint and good thermodynamic practice, one can easily come up with a rather lengthly list of what went wrong.
It is very fair when one has some good past experience with many steam cars for many years and knows for fact what they need to have. He is asking what went wrong and just for an enquiring engineering student's education standpoint he has a right to know. PROVIDING one says that he can be wrong and what worked for him in the past, may not work for other people today. That was also stated.
Whether they do or do not rebuild the car or not was really not his question. He wanted to know why their car was so close to our car's record after all that effort.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 24, 2010 03:30PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
Hi Jim,
I, as many others im sure, do respect your thoughts. So, to speak of smoke and mirrors with regards to all this..
Cough, cough.
The same could be said of the Cyclone Team. Last I heard there a well paid team... There better be some seriously impressive results.
If you think a piston type engine can make it over 200mph, you should specialize with remarkable parallel precision. I read you write up(about Cyclone engine) in the steamgazzette.com, and was quite impressed. Its a good write up, I like it.
However, I think it should be obvious to the reader that there is a competition going on in the shadows... And its the one- Steam Turbine VS: Piston Steam Engine.
Best
Jeremy
I, as many others im sure, do respect your thoughts. So, to speak of smoke and mirrors with regards to all this..
Quote
J C
Jake and a fellow engineering student went to an open discussion meeting the Land Speed Team put on. In place of direct answers, they got the usual management tap dance act, beating around the bushes and never telling anything to answer the questions directly.
Cough, cough.
The same could be said of the Cyclone Team. Last I heard there a well paid team... There better be some seriously impressive results.
If you think a piston type engine can make it over 200mph, you should specialize with remarkable parallel precision. I read you write up(about Cyclone engine) in the steamgazzette.com, and was quite impressed. Its a good write up, I like it.
However, I think it should be obvious to the reader that there is a competition going on in the shadows... And its the one- Steam Turbine VS: Piston Steam Engine.
Best
Jeremy
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 24, 2010 03:38PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 104 |
Hi Jake
If you go back through the forum files you will find quite a few posts on The British LSR record.
The main problem was the steam turbine chosen , which from an out siders view looking in, had a horrendous steam rate so needed massive amounts off steam.
If you look back through the actual British LSR site you can see how the "relatively" small car with it's "specially" designed aerodynamics was cut and stretched about 10 feet just to fit the boilers in and the supposedly critical CFD designed body turned in to a long truncated oval tube with a aero nose.
The boilers for the record attempt were the third completely different setup ie changed in layout and number and it appears were running on the ragged edge, which is why the car has probably gone as fast as it can,. As the final design of boilers had many parallel tubes, burn out due to one tube getting less flow is a huge potential problem. The British LSR website mentioned quite a few times boilers being damaged and having to be changed out but the actual damage is not reported.
The radiant panel burners for the boiler, as per all radiant panels, cannot be forced to higher output with out burning inside the matrix so they are also maxed out.
The water injection system for the boiler using air pressurized tanks while very simple is heavy compared to a pump and a tank.
That's a summary of what has been discussed on the forum. I would have liked to know what the actual steam rate when under test was and the water consuption during the record runs.
Cheers
If you go back through the forum files you will find quite a few posts on The British LSR record.
The main problem was the steam turbine chosen , which from an out siders view looking in, had a horrendous steam rate so needed massive amounts off steam.
If you look back through the actual British LSR site you can see how the "relatively" small car with it's "specially" designed aerodynamics was cut and stretched about 10 feet just to fit the boilers in and the supposedly critical CFD designed body turned in to a long truncated oval tube with a aero nose.
The boilers for the record attempt were the third completely different setup ie changed in layout and number and it appears were running on the ragged edge, which is why the car has probably gone as fast as it can,. As the final design of boilers had many parallel tubes, burn out due to one tube getting less flow is a huge potential problem. The British LSR website mentioned quite a few times boilers being damaged and having to be changed out but the actual damage is not reported.
The radiant panel burners for the boiler, as per all radiant panels, cannot be forced to higher output with out burning inside the matrix so they are also maxed out.
The water injection system for the boiler using air pressurized tanks while very simple is heavy compared to a pump and a tank.
That's a summary of what has been discussed on the forum. I would have liked to know what the actual steam rate when under test was and the water consuption during the record runs.
Cheers
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 24, 2010 06:08PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 488 |
220 hp and a really streamline vehicle should do over 200 easily. A stock hyabusa hits 190 (or more now) and it isn't very streamlined in comparison to a very low profile car with skinny wheels and superb areodynamics. My Blackbird does 160 @ 160 hp and it has quite a few areodynamic holes. Keep the thing under 18" tall and record should be had.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 24, 2010 07:54PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Jeremy,
Yes, and I feel for them. I went through the same thing when I was in college and if it wasn't for Barney Becker and Bill Besler, I would have dropped steam long ago. So much easier to just buy a nasty Corvette crate engine and not go through all this engineering.
Jake and his friend are engineering students with all the creative juices flowing, who only wanted to know why, the key driving force for engineers, especially when you are entering that profession and still learning. And all they got was the usual corporate B...S... and management spin control. To these kids, I will give all the data and anything I have done or learned about the hard way, or know about, just to encourage their minds and their thinking processes. They deserve it. Who knows, they might be the ones to really bring the Rankine cycle engine for cars to reality.
So someone stumbled in the car's design? So what's wrong with saying "OPPS I goofed", and going back to the drawing board and talking to people who went through the same learning curve themselves? Nothing. Only egos and arrogance stand in the way, like this car.
Quite right on the reciprocating vs. the turbine. What do you intend for it to power is the key question. In a car, and after living with one, no; but for a boat, sure.
As to a land speed record, both work; but it is much easier to use a reciprocating as today no real automotive sized turbines exist. Bob Barber (Barber -Nichols), who did the turbines for Lear, told me right up front at lunch to forget any turbine in a passenger car; but to only go reciprocating. He ought to know, i think.
The turbine got a lot of encouragement when alternate fluids were the hot topic. Then, people who proposed them did not really know why they work so well with alternate fluids and not with water, especially in small sizes, so the confusion spread. I fell for that one too. Just like I fell hard for the Wankel and the Lysholm ideas. They looked so good at first glance, until you really got into them.
The power level is there in the smallest possible package with a turbine (and no oil!!); but the operating demands just rule it out.
Twelve steam generators in parallel, let alone their bizarre design and no water pump simply defies any rational thinking. Surface combustion burners are absurd. I have a box full of them, because I looked at them too. Want them? Push one hard with high draft pressure, a commercial one, and the fire backs up into and behind the matrix and melts it down.
No the problems were not mentioned; but reliable sources in England told me that tube burnout and massive failures were the reasons. I heard too that at Bonneville this same problem cropped up. That several had to be cut out of the system. That may just really be the reason their car was actually so slow, not enough steaming capacity.
The Cyclone, well, Harry has done things to the limit and it seems to work. My only two fervent wishes are that he really tests the daylights out of the Mk-5 and that there were some other people as devoted as he is to bringing the Rankine cycle engine into the 21st century, and not keep putting Band-Aids on 19th century technology.
Fun, isn't it.
Jim
PS. Jeff Theobald, How about inviting them over and letting them drive a steamer, like your 30 hp Stanley. Never know what this does to a young engineer!!
The first time Barney Becker said: "OK, let's see what you learned. You steam it up and drive." Doble E-14 by the way. I damn near wet my pants with the thrill of that day.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2010 10:49PM by Jim Crank.
Yes, and I feel for them. I went through the same thing when I was in college and if it wasn't for Barney Becker and Bill Besler, I would have dropped steam long ago. So much easier to just buy a nasty Corvette crate engine and not go through all this engineering.
Jake and his friend are engineering students with all the creative juices flowing, who only wanted to know why, the key driving force for engineers, especially when you are entering that profession and still learning. And all they got was the usual corporate B...S... and management spin control. To these kids, I will give all the data and anything I have done or learned about the hard way, or know about, just to encourage their minds and their thinking processes. They deserve it. Who knows, they might be the ones to really bring the Rankine cycle engine for cars to reality.
So someone stumbled in the car's design? So what's wrong with saying "OPPS I goofed", and going back to the drawing board and talking to people who went through the same learning curve themselves? Nothing. Only egos and arrogance stand in the way, like this car.
Quite right on the reciprocating vs. the turbine. What do you intend for it to power is the key question. In a car, and after living with one, no; but for a boat, sure.
As to a land speed record, both work; but it is much easier to use a reciprocating as today no real automotive sized turbines exist. Bob Barber (Barber -Nichols), who did the turbines for Lear, told me right up front at lunch to forget any turbine in a passenger car; but to only go reciprocating. He ought to know, i think.
The turbine got a lot of encouragement when alternate fluids were the hot topic. Then, people who proposed them did not really know why they work so well with alternate fluids and not with water, especially in small sizes, so the confusion spread. I fell for that one too. Just like I fell hard for the Wankel and the Lysholm ideas. They looked so good at first glance, until you really got into them.
The power level is there in the smallest possible package with a turbine (and no oil!!); but the operating demands just rule it out.
Twelve steam generators in parallel, let alone their bizarre design and no water pump simply defies any rational thinking. Surface combustion burners are absurd. I have a box full of them, because I looked at them too. Want them? Push one hard with high draft pressure, a commercial one, and the fire backs up into and behind the matrix and melts it down.
No the problems were not mentioned; but reliable sources in England told me that tube burnout and massive failures were the reasons. I heard too that at Bonneville this same problem cropped up. That several had to be cut out of the system. That may just really be the reason their car was actually so slow, not enough steaming capacity.
The Cyclone, well, Harry has done things to the limit and it seems to work. My only two fervent wishes are that he really tests the daylights out of the Mk-5 and that there were some other people as devoted as he is to bringing the Rankine cycle engine into the 21st century, and not keep putting Band-Aids on 19th century technology.
Fun, isn't it.
Jim
PS. Jeff Theobald, How about inviting them over and letting them drive a steamer, like your 30 hp Stanley. Never know what this does to a young engineer!!
The first time Barney Becker said: "OK, let's see what you learned. You steam it up and drive." Doble E-14 by the way. I damn near wet my pants with the thrill of that day.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2010 10:49PM by Jim Crank.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 24, 2010 09:37PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,519 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 25, 2010 03:14AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 30 |
Hi Jim,
Re your question about an invite, I have been in communication with the student from Bath University and have offered to help with his inquiries where possible, the club has also offered a complimentary issue of each magazine to be sent to their engineering department, but as of this moment apart from the opening email I have not heard from him.
As always its open house here, we have a steady flow of steam car enthusiasts turning up from all around the world, always please to show people around the collection and if the weathers good, nothing like an excuse to get a car out and do a few miles, all the best, Jeff.
Re your question about an invite, I have been in communication with the student from Bath University and have offered to help with his inquiries where possible, the club has also offered a complimentary issue of each magazine to be sent to their engineering department, but as of this moment apart from the opening email I have not heard from him.
As always its open house here, we have a steady flow of steam car enthusiasts turning up from all around the world, always please to show people around the collection and if the weathers good, nothing like an excuse to get a car out and do a few miles, all the best, Jeff.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 26, 2010 07:37AM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 219 |
In answer to why the British speed effort was so expensive and so weak; I have mostly conjecture and some facts. As with most things in life it appears that the problem was more psychological than any other. When they started, which was ten years before the run, they wanted to do a one-time vehicle to make the run and then sit in a museum. Therefore there was no goal to make a good practical power plant with some real-life usage. Because of this fact, they then made a whole series of decisions based on doing things easily and cheaply. To begin with they did not think they had the fabricating ability to make a piston engine but could mill out a turbine. Then any combustion system is complex to make involving pumps and fans and igniters and so they decided to use propane. A water pump is complex and so they went with pressurized tanks of water with no on-board pump. The decision to go with a multi-path heat exchanger was good from a theoretical heat exchange point of view and probably better than using finned tubing, but it involved using a pressure drop nozzle similar to that used by the Thompson Water Tube boiler people. We do not know if this problem and solution was realized. One of the unforeseen problems was in trying to go cheap and easy was the decision to not put in any clutch or gear box or even a dog clutch into the system. They bolted the turbine directly to the rear end with a threaded fitting and thus could not even push it to get it moving without unscrewing the drive shaft. As everyone who has read Stodola and Loewenstein, or even just looked at the pictures as I did, knows a turbine has a very narrow rpm range for efficiency. Without being able to push the vehicle or change gears, then most of the time it was accelerating under very poor power production. So, first of all many poor engineering decisions were made in an attempt to make the vehicle simple to build. Second of all, by starting off with the decision to make a one-time museum display vehicle there was little incentive for the engineers to put any more effort into it, or even to get the job done on time because once the run was made everyone was out of a job. I could go on. All steam projects should be analyzed because there are lessons to be learned from each one of them. Tom Kimmel
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 26, 2010 11:25AM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 2 |
To everyone that has got back to me many thanks, your help is greatly appreciated. Apologies for the initial disrespect to the british team, having met them they are actually pretty decent (slightly eccentric) guys and by all accounts decent engineers just with no real background in either creating or properly harnessing steam.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 27, 2010 09:35AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Jake,
We have had the same problem here too. Getting the background education in steam cars and what they demand in the way of engineering to make a good new one was almost impossible. The enthusiasts were more gee-whizz dreamers than practical designers. Almost none of them had the money or shop facilities to go much past parking lot dribblers.
The best that anyone could do then was to adapt some Stanley engine to a more or less modern chassis. That was then, now things are vastly different.
SACA has this web site where questions may be asked and often answered. The internet opens up huge sources of data and back then we just did not have anything like it.
In the past, unless you were lucky enough to actually know someone who had one of these cars, the only reference was the old Clymer Red Book on steam cars and it was not all that good either, being a collection really of just old advertisements. Clymer also reprinted old steam car instruction books and catalogs and those were informative.
A few people now have had years of real hands on experience with these fascinating vehicles. Some have really dug into the engineering that must be employed if the car is going to be any good.
For the engineer who really does know the thermodynamics and engineering that simply must be employed to make a success of such a project, it is a seriously challenging thing to attempt. Perhaps actually achieving success in this endeavor is the reason and goal that keeps encouraging one on.
Pushing the envelope is the hard part and one often falls flat on his face. So, who does everything right the first time out? You keep going and more importantly, you keep learning.
Jim
We have had the same problem here too. Getting the background education in steam cars and what they demand in the way of engineering to make a good new one was almost impossible. The enthusiasts were more gee-whizz dreamers than practical designers. Almost none of them had the money or shop facilities to go much past parking lot dribblers.
The best that anyone could do then was to adapt some Stanley engine to a more or less modern chassis. That was then, now things are vastly different.
SACA has this web site where questions may be asked and often answered. The internet opens up huge sources of data and back then we just did not have anything like it.
In the past, unless you were lucky enough to actually know someone who had one of these cars, the only reference was the old Clymer Red Book on steam cars and it was not all that good either, being a collection really of just old advertisements. Clymer also reprinted old steam car instruction books and catalogs and those were informative.
A few people now have had years of real hands on experience with these fascinating vehicles. Some have really dug into the engineering that must be employed if the car is going to be any good.
For the engineer who really does know the thermodynamics and engineering that simply must be employed to make a success of such a project, it is a seriously challenging thing to attempt. Perhaps actually achieving success in this endeavor is the reason and goal that keeps encouraging one on.
Pushing the envelope is the hard part and one often falls flat on his face. So, who does everything right the first time out? You keep going and more importantly, you keep learning.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! April 30, 2010 04:49PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 340 |
Hey Everyone!!
I've just added a few new photos to the Progress page of the uslandsteamrecord site--check it out!! Progress has been a bit slow for the past coupla weeks...the TV crew being here disrupted me for a few days-getting ready for them, and then there's the time spent doing the springtime pruning, etc that's necessary in Florida.
But things are happening---Thanks to Everyone for the support and encouragement!!
Chuk
I've just added a few new photos to the Progress page of the uslandsteamrecord site--check it out!! Progress has been a bit slow for the past coupla weeks...the TV crew being here disrupted me for a few days-getting ready for them, and then there's the time spent doing the springtime pruning, etc that's necessary in Florida.
But things are happening---Thanks to Everyone for the support and encouragement!!
Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 04, 2010 01:43PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 340 |
Hi Everyone!!
The Discovery Channel/Canada tells me that the tentative date for the airing of the USLSR segment will be on May 11th. The segment will be a part of their daily show-the "Daily Planet"...which is shown only in Canada. After it airs, we-in the rest of the World-will be able to view it on their website for a limited period of 30 days afterwards...
Cheers---Chuk
The Discovery Channel/Canada tells me that the tentative date for the airing of the USLSR segment will be on May 11th. The segment will be a part of their daily show-the "Daily Planet"...which is shown only in Canada. After it airs, we-in the rest of the World-will be able to view it on their website for a limited period of 30 days afterwards...
Cheers---Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 11, 2010 09:43AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 340 |
Hey!!
I just got an update from the Discovery Channel folks---the segment they taped here will be shown on Canadian TV four times---tonight at 7pm and 11 pm EDT, and tomorrow at 9am and 12 noon. The segment will be aired on their show "Daily Planet". I'd really appreciate it if someone viewing it could tape it for me...
As soon as I get it, I'll post the link to view it on the web....
Cheers---Chuk
I just got an update from the Discovery Channel folks---the segment they taped here will be shown on Canadian TV four times---tonight at 7pm and 11 pm EDT, and tomorrow at 9am and 12 noon. The segment will be aired on their show "Daily Planet". I'd really appreciate it if someone viewing it could tape it for me...
As soon as I get it, I'll post the link to view it on the web....
Cheers---Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 12, 2010 12:50PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 340 |
Well--
Here's the link to see the Discovery Channel segment about the Land Steam Record Project!!
[watch.discoverychannel.ca]
Cheers---Chuk
Here's the link to see the Discovery Channel segment about the Land Steam Record Project!!
[watch.discoverychannel.ca]
Cheers---Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 12, 2010 10:50PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 153 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 13, 2010 06:40AM |
Admin Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 416 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 13, 2010 11:22AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 83 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 16, 2010 12:48PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 340 |
Hey-
Thanks everyone--for the help and support!! The edited TV segment turned out to be a bit of a tongue-in-cheek piece...but it's OK. I sure wasn't expecting the camera crew to be here taping for more than an hour or so, and didn't at all expect to be welding for the camera--so I really wasn't dressed for the part!! They arrived at 10 am and finished up at 10:30 pm, so it was a much bigger production than anticipated. I had a really fun day, being entertained by the "war stories" and travel tales of the TV crew.
As you might expect, when I'm in the shop working-I wear long pants and shoes...on the day of the taping, I was dressed to suit the Florida heat!!
Cheers---Chuk
Thanks everyone--for the help and support!! The edited TV segment turned out to be a bit of a tongue-in-cheek piece...but it's OK. I sure wasn't expecting the camera crew to be here taping for more than an hour or so, and didn't at all expect to be welding for the camera--so I really wasn't dressed for the part!! They arrived at 10 am and finished up at 10:30 pm, so it was a much bigger production than anticipated. I had a really fun day, being entertained by the "war stories" and travel tales of the TV crew.
As you might expect, when I'm in the shop working-I wear long pants and shoes...on the day of the taping, I was dressed to suit the Florida heat!!
Cheers---Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 23, 2010 11:41PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 488 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 24, 2010 11:39AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
The Bonneville track is tricky. They scrape it flat before Speed Week; but it all depends on how much brine pumping is being done, as this drastically changes the height of the water table. What can happen then is the salt is not dry; but damp. Then, if the driver is not very good or panicky, a spin is the outcome, complete with rollovers.
We didn't even notice any bumps or such when we ran the steamer.
We had to run Daytona Speedway tires, just in case the car went over 150 mph, by the rule book. Too wide. The narrowest possible you can get. Goodyear is supposed to again be making those special Bonneville thin tread tires again. Like 5:00-20 or something like that.
The suspension can be minimal or not even there. The track is as flat as a billiard table. Some cars we saw had none at all.
I really question a narrow tread. Just a bit out of line, a snap correction by the driver, and you are flipping all over the place. Talk to the Bonneville tech people, they will be full of good advice.
Make sure the brakes work perfectly, as some years a bit beyond the end of the track and the runoff area, there is a nice deep enough lake. Don't pull a Craig Breedlove and make like a submarine and have to get rescued. You could drown before they got to you. Be sure you can get out of the car in an instant, even when upside down.
The officials are really nice people and will bend over backwards to help. A few drinks at the bar in the evening helps too or a dinner invitation in Wendover.
Assign two people on the team as the official photographers, one for good hi-res video and one for stills. Take spare batteries on your person too. Shoot everything and all the time, you can always throw them away later.
As the Cyclone is there Harry for the first time, print up a box of nice little folded color brochures that tell simply what, who and why. When we were there I spent most of the time answering some really good penetrating questions by other teams and the press. Everyone will be totally fascinated that a steam car is there so assign someone to be the spokesperson for the team. Well informed too. And no B..S.. steam stuff, these are really sharp people who know car engineering from one end to the other.
What people who go there for the first time BETTER know are listed below:
° Take at least 3-4 gallons of water each day for each person. Raid the motel's ice machine and dump it in the drinking water. Hot as hell and dry. so you don't notice you are getting dehydrated until you pass out.
° That mandatory drivers fire suit they wanted was three layers of Nomex and hot as hell five minutes after you put it on. Watch the driver and have cold water on the line for him. You can't imagine how hot it is in that suit. I don't know if they reduced this amount of fire protection or not.
° Be sure no steam or fuel lines runs into or through the cockpit. The officials will like that. I used only electrical readouts.
° They may want a safety valve, why I don't know; but they did, so I added one. Now the Cyclone at 3200 psi might really be a nasty one. Who makes a small one that will work at that pressure? Oh yes, a certified one too.
° Take one or two of those portable garage-tent things for shade in the pits and chairs for all. Fans would be nice. After two or three days, you will look like some Indian. Gross sunburn is rampant out there. A hat by all means and don't stand around in the sun. You can always tell the first time out ones, they glow in the dark.
° There are no services out on the salt flats so take a portable generator, air compressor for the tires, long extension cords, a battery charger, all the tools possible and any spare parts you even think you might break and then some more.
° Be sure you take every possible thing you might need, or even think you might need. Wendover has nothing, or didn't then, and someone has to drive into Salt Lake City if you forgot or break something vital. Be sure to include a gas welding outfit and the right rods, you never know.
° When all done, be absolutely sure you stop at the first car wash and thoroughly wash the race car and all support vehicles. The salt gets into everything and into places you never thought it could. Corrosion is in high gear then. Take you own power washer, or go buy one, and use it every day.
° Oh yes, one more thing. Plenty of salt tablets too and be sure everyone takes them. It may be cool; but if not, they really help.
If I can think of some more, I will put it on the post. See you there.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2010 11:54AM by Jim Crank.
We didn't even notice any bumps or such when we ran the steamer.
We had to run Daytona Speedway tires, just in case the car went over 150 mph, by the rule book. Too wide. The narrowest possible you can get. Goodyear is supposed to again be making those special Bonneville thin tread tires again. Like 5:00-20 or something like that.
The suspension can be minimal or not even there. The track is as flat as a billiard table. Some cars we saw had none at all.
I really question a narrow tread. Just a bit out of line, a snap correction by the driver, and you are flipping all over the place. Talk to the Bonneville tech people, they will be full of good advice.
Make sure the brakes work perfectly, as some years a bit beyond the end of the track and the runoff area, there is a nice deep enough lake. Don't pull a Craig Breedlove and make like a submarine and have to get rescued. You could drown before they got to you. Be sure you can get out of the car in an instant, even when upside down.
The officials are really nice people and will bend over backwards to help. A few drinks at the bar in the evening helps too or a dinner invitation in Wendover.
Assign two people on the team as the official photographers, one for good hi-res video and one for stills. Take spare batteries on your person too. Shoot everything and all the time, you can always throw them away later.
As the Cyclone is there Harry for the first time, print up a box of nice little folded color brochures that tell simply what, who and why. When we were there I spent most of the time answering some really good penetrating questions by other teams and the press. Everyone will be totally fascinated that a steam car is there so assign someone to be the spokesperson for the team. Well informed too. And no B..S.. steam stuff, these are really sharp people who know car engineering from one end to the other.
What people who go there for the first time BETTER know are listed below:
° Take at least 3-4 gallons of water each day for each person. Raid the motel's ice machine and dump it in the drinking water. Hot as hell and dry. so you don't notice you are getting dehydrated until you pass out.
° That mandatory drivers fire suit they wanted was three layers of Nomex and hot as hell five minutes after you put it on. Watch the driver and have cold water on the line for him. You can't imagine how hot it is in that suit. I don't know if they reduced this amount of fire protection or not.
° Be sure no steam or fuel lines runs into or through the cockpit. The officials will like that. I used only electrical readouts.
° They may want a safety valve, why I don't know; but they did, so I added one. Now the Cyclone at 3200 psi might really be a nasty one. Who makes a small one that will work at that pressure? Oh yes, a certified one too.
° Take one or two of those portable garage-tent things for shade in the pits and chairs for all. Fans would be nice. After two or three days, you will look like some Indian. Gross sunburn is rampant out there. A hat by all means and don't stand around in the sun. You can always tell the first time out ones, they glow in the dark.
° There are no services out on the salt flats so take a portable generator, air compressor for the tires, long extension cords, a battery charger, all the tools possible and any spare parts you even think you might break and then some more.
° Be sure you take every possible thing you might need, or even think you might need. Wendover has nothing, or didn't then, and someone has to drive into Salt Lake City if you forgot or break something vital. Be sure to include a gas welding outfit and the right rods, you never know.
° When all done, be absolutely sure you stop at the first car wash and thoroughly wash the race car and all support vehicles. The salt gets into everything and into places you never thought it could. Corrosion is in high gear then. Take you own power washer, or go buy one, and use it every day.
° Oh yes, one more thing. Plenty of salt tablets too and be sure everyone takes them. It may be cool; but if not, they really help.
If I can think of some more, I will put it on the post. See you there.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2010 11:54AM by Jim Crank.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 26, 2010 03:16AM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 488 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! May 26, 2010 08:46PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 83 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! June 19, 2010 06:47PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
chuk williams Wrote:
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> But things are happening---Thanks to Everyone for
> the support and encouragement!!
Hi Chuk:
I hope things are going well for your project. OTOH I suspect a project of this size is just too much for one person to get completed, sorted out--and then on the way to the salt flats, in the time frame which represents this year's window.
I wish the best for you here; if you don't make this years' event, you'll have a lot of time to get everything sorted out and you probably have a better chance for success next season.
Best of luck to you; I wish I could support you physically or financially, but that's not possible from here. I encourage others to provide whatever support they can.
All the best,
Bill
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> But things are happening---Thanks to Everyone for
> the support and encouragement!!
Hi Chuk:
I hope things are going well for your project. OTOH I suspect a project of this size is just too much for one person to get completed, sorted out--and then on the way to the salt flats, in the time frame which represents this year's window.
I wish the best for you here; if you don't make this years' event, you'll have a lot of time to get everything sorted out and you probably have a better chance for success next season.
Best of luck to you; I wish I could support you physically or financially, but that's not possible from here. I encourage others to provide whatever support they can.
All the best,
Bill
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! June 21, 2010 11:57AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 340 |
Hey Bill!!
You're right--we're not going to make it this year-taking the Streamliner to Bonneville. From the beginning it was pretty questionable-but possible if things had flowed smoothly.
No worries though-we're getting things done on the vehicle, and Harry is working on getting the engine assembled and tested...it's all coming together like it should. We're planning to have everything together and working in time for testing at Maxton next spring.
I'm going to attend Speed Week at Bonneville in August...renew old friendships and get up-to-speed on everything new and exciting!
Thanks for the Support!!
Chuk
You're right--we're not going to make it this year-taking the Streamliner to Bonneville. From the beginning it was pretty questionable-but possible if things had flowed smoothly.
No worries though-we're getting things done on the vehicle, and Harry is working on getting the engine assembled and tested...it's all coming together like it should. We're planning to have everything together and working in time for testing at Maxton next spring.
I'm going to attend Speed Week at Bonneville in August...renew old friendships and get up-to-speed on everything new and exciting!
Thanks for the Support!!
Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! June 21, 2010 03:48PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 358 |
Has anyone been able to check the high speed trials at Loring AFB ,,at Limestone Maine,near Presque Isle,Me ,,It seems to be a secret,,,but the runway is 3 miles long,,and frost proof foundation is 8' thick w/a portion heated,,,Someone suggestd calling the Countryclub for info,207-328-7277,,Limestone is really a suberb of Loring,,sort of,,This airfield is the closest in this country to soviet targets,,,,,so we closed it,,Up north, its cooler,,,so bring blankets,A-C probably not needed,,,,Ben
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! June 22, 2010 06:14PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 83 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! June 23, 2010 10:54AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 340 |
Ben-
Hey Thanks for the info on the Loring AFB..I managed to get in touch with the Loring Timing Association-a group that has organized Speed Trials at the Loring Airfield. It sounds like they have a good set-up for testing and running any kind of hi-speed vehicle. The track has a total of 3 miles for runs-1.5 miles for getting up to speed-a timed length-and then plenty of room for shutdown.
We'll keep it in mind for next year--though it is a long haul from Florida to Maine!!
Chuk
Hey Thanks for the info on the Loring AFB..I managed to get in touch with the Loring Timing Association-a group that has organized Speed Trials at the Loring Airfield. It sounds like they have a good set-up for testing and running any kind of hi-speed vehicle. The track has a total of 3 miles for runs-1.5 miles for getting up to speed-a timed length-and then plenty of room for shutdown.
We'll keep it in mind for next year--though it is a long haul from Florida to Maine!!
Chuk
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! June 23, 2010 12:29PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 358 |
Probably wont need A-C,,,,bring a blanket tho,,Its about 6 hrs north of me,,and can get chilly,,its just a bit north of mid-state,,Maine,AND with its foundation,,it doesnt have the water dry out problem of Utah,,,and check our gun laws for a out of state Moose licence,,People are friendly,,,Moose,,not necessarily so,,haha,,The HAMB group seems to be in on this too,,,,,,,Ben
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! June 23, 2010 04:07PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 22 |
ben Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Probably wont need A-C,,,,bring a blanket tho,,Its
> about 6 hrs north of me,,and can get chilly,,its
> just a bit north of mid-state,,Maine,AND with its
> foundation,,it doesnt have the water dry out
> problem of Utah,,,and check our gun laws for a out
> of state Moose licence,,People are
> friendly,,,Moose,,not necessarily so,,haha,,The
> HAMB group seems to be in on this too,,,,,,,Ben
Hey Ben,
Glad to see another Mainer, and the possibility of the speed trials being held in Maine. I'm about the same distance away from Presque Isle-- where are you located?
All the Best,
-Parker
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> Probably wont need A-C,,,,bring a blanket tho,,Its
> about 6 hrs north of me,,and can get chilly,,its
> just a bit north of mid-state,,Maine,AND with its
> foundation,,it doesnt have the water dry out
> problem of Utah,,,and check our gun laws for a out
> of state Moose licence,,People are
> friendly,,,Moose,,not necessarily so,,haha,,The
> HAMB group seems to be in on this too,,,,,,,Ben
Hey Ben,
Glad to see another Mainer, and the possibility of the speed trials being held in Maine. I'm about the same distance away from Presque Isle-- where are you located?
All the Best,
-Parker
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