US Land Steam Record!!
Posted by chuk williams
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 04, 2012 11:41PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 05, 2012 08:39AM |
Admin Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 2,086 |
Hmmm....400 ponies, eh?
I've seen Chevy S-10s with the stock 2.2 liter Vortec engine and aftermarket turbo equipment pull about 400 bhp, suggesting that all sorts of larger 4 cylinder engines may be tough enough to get competitive if put in the right chassis and body, short block V-8s are capable of far more, of course.
The LSR is kind of convenient in that you can ignore stuff like condensing, cylinder lube in the feed, engine longevity and so on.
I can see a program to build IC conversions that should more than suffice for LSR runs, the big issue being cylinder heads. The easiest way to tackle that (near as I can see) is to modularize the head. Off-the-shelf poppets, seats, guides, springs, keepers and so on can be placed into lathe turned cartridges, connected to inlet and exhaust headers and screwed into a head. Actually, for admission valves I'd take oversized poppet valves and regrind the seating surface in the opposite direction such that steam chest pressure pushes the valve into the seat; the seat can be stock if the proper valve and grind job is accomplished. By closing the exhaust valve a bit before TDC and working to minimize clearance volume, the recompression pressure should offset much of the steam chest pressure and keep the operating forces reasonable. The head can simply be a piece of steel ground flat, drilled appropriately to bolt to the block and tapped for the valve cartridges. An assembled cam would be acceptable (they thermally fit lobes onto shafts in some production engines), it could be mounted in self aligning pillow blocks to keep it all brute simple. A stainless cap on the pistons might be nice. Fill with synthetic oil, run a steam vent line through the crankcase to evaporate any blowby...an extractor could even be connected to the exhaust manifold and routed through the PCV port to pull some suction on the sump to help keep it dry. You could even pump water through the block to keep the cylinder wall temperatures acceptable if extremely high superheat is contemplated. I could see using valves with sodium filled stems in that case.
Ken
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2012 08:41AM by frustrated.
I've seen Chevy S-10s with the stock 2.2 liter Vortec engine and aftermarket turbo equipment pull about 400 bhp, suggesting that all sorts of larger 4 cylinder engines may be tough enough to get competitive if put in the right chassis and body, short block V-8s are capable of far more, of course.
The LSR is kind of convenient in that you can ignore stuff like condensing, cylinder lube in the feed, engine longevity and so on.
I can see a program to build IC conversions that should more than suffice for LSR runs, the big issue being cylinder heads. The easiest way to tackle that (near as I can see) is to modularize the head. Off-the-shelf poppets, seats, guides, springs, keepers and so on can be placed into lathe turned cartridges, connected to inlet and exhaust headers and screwed into a head. Actually, for admission valves I'd take oversized poppet valves and regrind the seating surface in the opposite direction such that steam chest pressure pushes the valve into the seat; the seat can be stock if the proper valve and grind job is accomplished. By closing the exhaust valve a bit before TDC and working to minimize clearance volume, the recompression pressure should offset much of the steam chest pressure and keep the operating forces reasonable. The head can simply be a piece of steel ground flat, drilled appropriately to bolt to the block and tapped for the valve cartridges. An assembled cam would be acceptable (they thermally fit lobes onto shafts in some production engines), it could be mounted in self aligning pillow blocks to keep it all brute simple. A stainless cap on the pistons might be nice. Fill with synthetic oil, run a steam vent line through the crankcase to evaporate any blowby...an extractor could even be connected to the exhaust manifold and routed through the PCV port to pull some suction on the sump to help keep it dry. You could even pump water through the block to keep the cylinder wall temperatures acceptable if extremely high superheat is contemplated. I could see using valves with sodium filled stems in that case.
Ken
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2012 08:41AM by frustrated.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 05, 2012 11:04AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Caleb,
The point being that it would be polite to ask first before posting private data all over the universe. Besides, the Club is supposed to be the library of steam car information and NOT the internet.
400 hp? That might be doable for the short time in the traps at Bonneville using longer cutoff and using the reserve water capacity. At least a big enough burner is no problem. There is a 1400 cfm racing carburetor available that ought to be large enough and doing such a powerful draft booster today doesn't bother me. Go up to 1800 psig and 850°F.
There is-was a Bryan engine in San Francisco, looked at it once. Really tough construction and good valves.
That Buckey Bullet sure is one slippery body !!!
Let's see how Chuk and Harry do first.
Rolly,
Seems that I recall someone posting some time ago about duplicating the Bryan engine, while someone else was tryin to do the same for the Doble Series F engine, although I sure don't know why for that one. Perhaps a search in the indedx might help. From the looks of it, fabricating the Bryan cylinders might be the way to go for a one-off.
Ken,
You just might have put your finger on how to do a land speed engine. A course of action I looked into before that Lear stuff was available. A fabricated head makes the best sense and actually not all that hard to do, as you laid it out. Seems we think alike!!
Think of a 4-71 aluminum GMC Diesel bottom end converted. Poppet valves and use the original cam drive as is; but with a new cam of course. The unaflow exhaust ports are already there.
Might do the trick rather well, since as you say, it doesn't have to last long and for that short time abuse the devil out of it. One tough engine to start with.
I did have some time with one of those racing aluminum 6-71 Jimmy engines on a dyno once. One of the special GM racing engines for an offshore boat. Huge power and good reliabiltiy too. Hmmmmmm!!
Jim
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2012 11:22AM by Jim Crank.
The point being that it would be polite to ask first before posting private data all over the universe. Besides, the Club is supposed to be the library of steam car information and NOT the internet.
400 hp? That might be doable for the short time in the traps at Bonneville using longer cutoff and using the reserve water capacity. At least a big enough burner is no problem. There is a 1400 cfm racing carburetor available that ought to be large enough and doing such a powerful draft booster today doesn't bother me. Go up to 1800 psig and 850°F.
There is-was a Bryan engine in San Francisco, looked at it once. Really tough construction and good valves.
That Buckey Bullet sure is one slippery body !!!
Let's see how Chuk and Harry do first.
Rolly,
Seems that I recall someone posting some time ago about duplicating the Bryan engine, while someone else was tryin to do the same for the Doble Series F engine, although I sure don't know why for that one. Perhaps a search in the indedx might help. From the looks of it, fabricating the Bryan cylinders might be the way to go for a one-off.
Ken,
You just might have put your finger on how to do a land speed engine. A course of action I looked into before that Lear stuff was available. A fabricated head makes the best sense and actually not all that hard to do, as you laid it out. Seems we think alike!!
Think of a 4-71 aluminum GMC Diesel bottom end converted. Poppet valves and use the original cam drive as is; but with a new cam of course. The unaflow exhaust ports are already there.
Might do the trick rather well, since as you say, it doesn't have to last long and for that short time abuse the devil out of it. One tough engine to start with.
I did have some time with one of those racing aluminum 6-71 Jimmy engines on a dyno once. One of the special GM racing engines for an offshore boat. Huge power and good reliabiltiy too. Hmmmmmm!!
Jim
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2012 11:22AM by Jim Crank.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 05, 2012 09:43PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 488 |
Hi Jim, for fun I looked up info on the 71 series diesels. If the wiki article is correct, it looks like they exhausted out the valves in the head, meaning the crankcase had to be pressurized. Make for an interesting reverse flow application. Would you dump the steam out the ports or attempt to duct them away from crankcase oil? Probably no big deal for a short run. Keith
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 05, 2012 10:57PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
Really the top goal should be the piston driven record, which is 415 mph for the mile. It is held by the "411 Steamliner".
Here is an interesting article about it which gives some good technical data also.
[www.hotrod.com]
For those who don't read it the its cd is .119, the body being 38" by 41" giving a frontal area of 7.4 sq ft, it is only 24' long. It has two 425 ci Donovan Hemis, blown, which combine to produce 3,000 hp at 53% throttle and 21 lbs boost, max throttle gives 38 lbs boost and would in theory give them 4,600 hp, if they could last. One engine drives the front wheels and the other drives the rear. Can't find its weight, but that doesn't really matter, as more is better to a degree for a salt flat car.
Caleb Ramsby
Here is an interesting article about it which gives some good technical data also.
[www.hotrod.com]
For those who don't read it the its cd is .119, the body being 38" by 41" giving a frontal area of 7.4 sq ft, it is only 24' long. It has two 425 ci Donovan Hemis, blown, which combine to produce 3,000 hp at 53% throttle and 21 lbs boost, max throttle gives 38 lbs boost and would in theory give them 4,600 hp, if they could last. One engine drives the front wheels and the other drives the rear. Can't find its weight, but that doesn't really matter, as more is better to a degree for a salt flat car.
Caleb Ramsby
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 05, 2012 11:41PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Yes, they exhaust through the head with two valves and some with four valves.
The unaflow ports get compressed air from the gear driven Roots blowers. Use the ports for exhaust and intake with a new head. The ports in those racing 6--71 engines have huge 360° ports, quite ideal as steam exhaust ports.
The crankcase is not pressurized.
Jim
The unaflow ports get compressed air from the gear driven Roots blowers. Use the ports for exhaust and intake with a new head. The ports in those racing 6--71 engines have huge 360° ports, quite ideal as steam exhaust ports.
The crankcase is not pressurized.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 06, 2012 12:26AM |
Moderator Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 182 |
Jim, you wrote "Yes, those are the three stories that I was trying to attach to the post. And just who put it on the internet???" I am surprised that you did not notice that the pages at firedragon.com are mine.
When I began to set up these articles, I submitted the articles in the Steam Automobile quarterly and Bulletins to you for a double-check. They had been either taken from your notes and presentations at SACA meets or were directly submitted by you to the SACA. Astonishingly, you were dismayed at the apparent inaccuracies, so I asked you to make corrections before they were posted on my pages. Eventually, all was revised as noted, approved, and now they are the most complete and, one would hope, accurate accounts.
There is, of course, material on my website which you did not create. The mass of photos are my own photos from the dozens of rolls of film I put through my Nikon before it died of heat prostration. LSR runs are hard on even the crew and spectators. I would put more detailed captions on them, but I do not know the names of a few of the people who came with you from California. If photos of the car's other Bonneville runs are available, I would be delighted to include them on the same website. Please let me know.
The original SACA articles are copyrighted by the SACA and these revised versions and my photos are copyrighted by me, so I expect to get the occasional request to use them elsewhere. I will, of course, run requests for your submissions by you for permission.
I am looking forward to seeing you next weekend at the big tech meet in Sacramento.
Karl Petersen
When I began to set up these articles, I submitted the articles in the Steam Automobile quarterly and Bulletins to you for a double-check. They had been either taken from your notes and presentations at SACA meets or were directly submitted by you to the SACA. Astonishingly, you were dismayed at the apparent inaccuracies, so I asked you to make corrections before they were posted on my pages. Eventually, all was revised as noted, approved, and now they are the most complete and, one would hope, accurate accounts.
There is, of course, material on my website which you did not create. The mass of photos are my own photos from the dozens of rolls of film I put through my Nikon before it died of heat prostration. LSR runs are hard on even the crew and spectators. I would put more detailed captions on them, but I do not know the names of a few of the people who came with you from California. If photos of the car's other Bonneville runs are available, I would be delighted to include them on the same website. Please let me know.
The original SACA articles are copyrighted by the SACA and these revised versions and my photos are copyrighted by me, so I expect to get the occasional request to use them elsewhere. I will, of course, run requests for your submissions by you for permission.
I am looking forward to seeing you next weekend at the big tech meet in Sacramento.
Karl Petersen
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 06, 2012 06:32AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
Karl,
For use in the SACA newsletter, yes. For posting on the internet, no. Or does a SACA copyright mean that they also get to spread it all over the place?
What would be of interest to find out, is if one uses material in a copyrighted publication does that also mean the owner of that copyright, SACA in this case, also has the right to use it in other publications like the internet? According to my attorney for contracts, the answer is no, only for the one publication unless that aditional right is specifically granted to the publication. And only if there is an actual contract giving permission to use the materialat at will. We don't because it is SACA; but recently here there was a messy and expensive court fight over this exact issue.
This business of copyright and the internet is getting to be a slippery situation for all. A lot of people claim copyright of material, when in fact, no copyright was legally aquired in the first place. They only say they have it. As Harold said, some attorney is going to latch on to this and file suit. That we do not need; but in the patent-copyright world around here, these companies are greedy as hell and looking for any source of revenue. Remember how restrictive the SAE is about anyone using any of their material. Ask Tom about this one.
Not going to that conference.
Jim
For use in the SACA newsletter, yes. For posting on the internet, no. Or does a SACA copyright mean that they also get to spread it all over the place?
What would be of interest to find out, is if one uses material in a copyrighted publication does that also mean the owner of that copyright, SACA in this case, also has the right to use it in other publications like the internet? According to my attorney for contracts, the answer is no, only for the one publication unless that aditional right is specifically granted to the publication. And only if there is an actual contract giving permission to use the materialat at will. We don't because it is SACA; but recently here there was a messy and expensive court fight over this exact issue.
This business of copyright and the internet is getting to be a slippery situation for all. A lot of people claim copyright of material, when in fact, no copyright was legally aquired in the first place. They only say they have it. As Harold said, some attorney is going to latch on to this and file suit. That we do not need; but in the patent-copyright world around here, these companies are greedy as hell and looking for any source of revenue. Remember how restrictive the SAE is about anyone using any of their material. Ask Tom about this one.
Not going to that conference.
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 06, 2012 01:51PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 215 |
Re: Your previous remarks on the Bryan Engine-
The Bryan simple 4" x5" DA engine of 250CID was much more advanced than the Stanley and the rare(never seen?) Doble two cylinder SA 4" x5" engine that original dyno info was first recorded in the english "Boiler House Review" by the editor and steam expert Harman Lewis, he as you know bought Abners car in England at the corner of Hyde park and thanks to his son we have lots of good info on that history.
The Doble simple could put out 74HP @ 1320 RPM with only 375psi with 30% cut off. When I talked to the older retired Bryan president Al Bishop probably 15 years ago he stated that the Bryan engine was tested up to 1200psi and 1500RPM. As it had bigger piston valves than the Doble 2cyl DA engine it would probably perform more efficiently than the Doble engine of the same size. The water rate for the Doble on the dyno with 800F steam was 14#/hp-hr and our discussions assumed that the Bryan would do as well.
From a good number of calculations and comparisons the Bryan at 1200psi and at 1400RPM would be able to produce over 220 HP with a steam rate of 15#/HP-HR. Thus one engine would require 3300# steam per hour and could easily break the current record if put in a low drag resistance car, possibly 180 MPH. It would be an easy way to set a substantially higher record. This would require a Lamont boiler of a burn rate of about 40GPH and if the Lamont recirculation drum held 4-5 gallons of water the overdraw capacity would be substantial for 30-40 seconds without adding feedwater. My great experiences with Coburn Bensons Bryan engine Vanderbilt and tests show what an absolutely powerful and strong engine this is, he has had a few oppertunities to drive that heavier beast to over 100mph with using 30" Stanley boiler with its reserve and a burn rate of about 8-9GPH fuel. If I had my druthers(whatever they are and I must have lost mine) what a fun modern car could be made with just one Bryan engine and a good boiler. Anyone that was at the Dead Horse Hillclimb years ago would remember the "Mondo Canne" surreal sight of that car dissapearing into the clouds in seconds while climbing that steep hill. Wear a neck brace when in that car!
Get better and recover, George
The Bryan simple 4" x5" DA engine of 250CID was much more advanced than the Stanley and the rare(never seen?) Doble two cylinder SA 4" x5" engine that original dyno info was first recorded in the english "Boiler House Review" by the editor and steam expert Harman Lewis, he as you know bought Abners car in England at the corner of Hyde park and thanks to his son we have lots of good info on that history.
The Doble simple could put out 74HP @ 1320 RPM with only 375psi with 30% cut off. When I talked to the older retired Bryan president Al Bishop probably 15 years ago he stated that the Bryan engine was tested up to 1200psi and 1500RPM. As it had bigger piston valves than the Doble 2cyl DA engine it would probably perform more efficiently than the Doble engine of the same size. The water rate for the Doble on the dyno with 800F steam was 14#/hp-hr and our discussions assumed that the Bryan would do as well.
From a good number of calculations and comparisons the Bryan at 1200psi and at 1400RPM would be able to produce over 220 HP with a steam rate of 15#/HP-HR. Thus one engine would require 3300# steam per hour and could easily break the current record if put in a low drag resistance car, possibly 180 MPH. It would be an easy way to set a substantially higher record. This would require a Lamont boiler of a burn rate of about 40GPH and if the Lamont recirculation drum held 4-5 gallons of water the overdraw capacity would be substantial for 30-40 seconds without adding feedwater. My great experiences with Coburn Bensons Bryan engine Vanderbilt and tests show what an absolutely powerful and strong engine this is, he has had a few oppertunities to drive that heavier beast to over 100mph with using 30" Stanley boiler with its reserve and a burn rate of about 8-9GPH fuel. If I had my druthers(whatever they are and I must have lost mine) what a fun modern car could be made with just one Bryan engine and a good boiler. Anyone that was at the Dead Horse Hillclimb years ago would remember the "Mondo Canne" surreal sight of that car dissapearing into the clouds in seconds while climbing that steep hill. Wear a neck brace when in that car!
Get better and recover, George
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 06, 2012 02:51PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
Hey Jim,
Are you too ill to attend the meet? That is sad, you have been screaming about needing such a meet for at least a decade and now there will be one and in your neck of the woods to boot!
Hey George,
For 220 hp and 1,400 rpm that would be roughly 245 mep excluding the piston rod area on the crank end, probably closer to 275 cylinder mep when friction and the smaller piston area of the crank end are considered. That would give roughly a 1 to .23 ratio from the 1,200 psi to 275 mep, for a quick check using Marks table that would be around 16 expansions, considering at that high speed and pressure a card factor of .6 that would change the mechanical expansion ratio to give 460 mep or 1 to .38 initial pressure to mep which is a around a 1 to 8 expansion ratio, with that big piston valve probably 10% clearance. That would require roughly a 8.8% cutoff or 9%, does that sound right?
Were you able to take measurements of the positions of the notches to determine what points the 7 notches on Bens car are? Also, do your notes from your experiments with Bens car still exist? If so is there a way you could scan them?
Keep warm, it is in the balmy lower 50's here in the midwest(very odd! ) .
Caleb Ramsby
Are you too ill to attend the meet? That is sad, you have been screaming about needing such a meet for at least a decade and now there will be one and in your neck of the woods to boot!
Hey George,
For 220 hp and 1,400 rpm that would be roughly 245 mep excluding the piston rod area on the crank end, probably closer to 275 cylinder mep when friction and the smaller piston area of the crank end are considered. That would give roughly a 1 to .23 ratio from the 1,200 psi to 275 mep, for a quick check using Marks table that would be around 16 expansions, considering at that high speed and pressure a card factor of .6 that would change the mechanical expansion ratio to give 460 mep or 1 to .38 initial pressure to mep which is a around a 1 to 8 expansion ratio, with that big piston valve probably 10% clearance. That would require roughly a 8.8% cutoff or 9%, does that sound right?
Were you able to take measurements of the positions of the notches to determine what points the 7 notches on Bens car are? Also, do your notes from your experiments with Bens car still exist? If so is there a way you could scan them?
Keep warm, it is in the balmy lower 50's here in the midwest(very odd! ) .
Caleb Ramsby
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 06, 2012 07:26PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 358 |
As I recall George calculated my time to be 1min,,,,,,Actual was 1m1sec,,,,
I hooket the throttle over the quadrent tab,,,and ran on cutoff control only,,
When we launched I am sure the 21' superheater was a bright red,,,,they held the start flag what
seemed forever,,
If there was any caryover the superheater took care of it,,haha,,,
I left it unhooked to gain speed,,,til er,,,well we were goin "good"" then hooked up,thus avoiding a
compresson problem
to blow a head out,,,
By the time we crested the hill,,all the guages had gone to the left,,
Probably a better time could be had if I had run on an empty water tank,,instead of 30-40 gallons,extra,,
There was no time to monotor the chiller [ normalizer ] ,,,
I only got to see the performance,,,not a bit of the spectators reaction,,
It would be great if those there would recount that scene of bewilderd spectators,,it was truly unique,,,HOLY C W,,,
whot hopp'n,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, We were the only car asked to make a backup run,,,,Ditto time,,!!,,
It was one of those days,,,,absolutely everyone there will NEVER forget,,,
Oh yeh it was hot too,,,but my red flannel soaked the sweat just fine,,,,,,June 1997 CB
P/S,,,This would not have been possible except for my wonderful friends who worked into the night amongst hoards of local mosquitoes several nites,,to put it together again,,,I had badly miscalculated assembly time,,,200' of extension cord and working in a most cramped Mayflower moving van body,,in a near field,,,aaaaahh Luxury,,,Ben
I hooket the throttle over the quadrent tab,,,and ran on cutoff control only,,
When we launched I am sure the 21' superheater was a bright red,,,,they held the start flag what
seemed forever,,
If there was any caryover the superheater took care of it,,haha,,,
I left it unhooked to gain speed,,,til er,,,well we were goin "good"" then hooked up,thus avoiding a
compresson problem
to blow a head out,,,
By the time we crested the hill,,all the guages had gone to the left,,
Probably a better time could be had if I had run on an empty water tank,,instead of 30-40 gallons,extra,,
There was no time to monotor the chiller [ normalizer ] ,,,
I only got to see the performance,,,not a bit of the spectators reaction,,
It would be great if those there would recount that scene of bewilderd spectators,,it was truly unique,,,HOLY C W,,,
whot hopp'n,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, We were the only car asked to make a backup run,,,,Ditto time,,!!,,
It was one of those days,,,,absolutely everyone there will NEVER forget,,,
Oh yeh it was hot too,,,but my red flannel soaked the sweat just fine,,,,,,June 1997 CB
P/S,,,This would not have been possible except for my wonderful friends who worked into the night amongst hoards of local mosquitoes several nites,,to put it together again,,,I had badly miscalculated assembly time,,,200' of extension cord and working in a most cramped Mayflower moving van body,,in a near field,,,aaaaahh Luxury,,,Ben
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 07, 2012 01:54AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,453 |
Thanks for the Bryan data, George. Duly input into the mental mill. Whose wheels grind exceedingly slowly, but I think surely.
Ben, sounds like if I had been a spectator at that hillclimb, I would have needed a teaspoon to press my eyeballs back into their sockets. Steam can be hot, but "what th'...?!?!"
Peter
Ben, sounds like if I had been a spectator at that hillclimb, I would have needed a teaspoon to press my eyeballs back into their sockets. Steam can be hot, but "what th'...?!?!"
Peter
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 07, 2012 02:13AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 180 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 07, 2012 05:26AM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 1,441 |
George,
Sounds like one Bryan engine would do the job, as you can push start the car at Bonneville and that covers a lot of sins. Just change the gear raio to get 225 mph out of a really slippery car and it just might really smash the steam record. Agree, one very good and tough engine, so abusing it for that short time would probably work.
Caleb,
Yes, legs not fully recovered and Doctors stern advice, Stay home for another two months or so. The balance is back; but not all the strength yet.
Harry's brief TV show looked good; but the producer didin't cover the bases as well as he should have. Such as why do this in the first place, Global warming and home grown fuel and not one mention of the good competative efficiency already. i wonder if the Green Channel would do a more thorough job??
Jim
Sounds like one Bryan engine would do the job, as you can push start the car at Bonneville and that covers a lot of sins. Just change the gear raio to get 225 mph out of a really slippery car and it just might really smash the steam record. Agree, one very good and tough engine, so abusing it for that short time would probably work.
Caleb,
Yes, legs not fully recovered and Doctors stern advice, Stay home for another two months or so. The balance is back; but not all the strength yet.
Harry's brief TV show looked good; but the producer didin't cover the bases as well as he should have. Such as why do this in the first place, Global warming and home grown fuel and not one mention of the good competative efficiency already. i wonder if the Green Channel would do a more thorough job??
Jim
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 07, 2012 08:11AM |
Admin Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 2,086 |
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the offer! I don’t have any immediate plans to build an LSR engine, truthfully there are too many unfinished projects right now and the over time situation makes me wonder whether I’ll finish up before I retire. Maybe in 5 or 10 years or so if things get under better control. Of course, circumstances (and other people) often cause 'the best-laid plans of mice and Ken to often go astray', so I try to toss in a few weasel words here to cover my bases...
I came up with the cartridge valves as a simple, low cost way of building a steam automobile on a minimum budget and low timeframe. Preferentially, you’d get a number of partners together all building cars and pool your resources to get the valve cartridges turned by a machine shop with a light CNC capability. As you know, the setup is what really costs, after you get past that the price per unit isn’t bad. If you can spread the setup costs out, the whole thing is more affordable.
More preferentially, you’d all use the same donor engine and build patterns for a common cylinder head design to be cast by a decent foundry…I know a couple places that would do a good job in stainless. With patterns you could keep the part mostly thin and light, adding reinforcing ribs and mounting bosses at critical points…but the odds of getting any number of steam people to agree to work in unison to that degree is vanishingly small. Hence the steel plate.
Overall, I’d say 3/8 inch thickness is probably more than adequate. Off the top of my head maybe about 7.5 x 16 for an I-4 or about 5.5 x 22 for a V-8. If you wanted even more rigidity in the plate, a couple of strongbacks could be welded along the top; they could be perhaps 3/8 wide and ¾ tall. With all this welding I’d have the part stress relieved before grinding.
Personally, I don’t think expander development should be part of the critical pathway for a steam LSR development program, the number of cylinder block/crankcase options out there with a history of handling that kind of power is enormous and your only job is to route steam rather than a fuel/air mixture into the top of the jugs. Like almost every competitor at LeMans, we need to reduce the power below that of a stock Corvette to keep legal, production engines can potentially handle huge power. The bigger issue is going to be putting together a steam generator capable of pumping out the kind of steam volume the mill will demand and doing so reliably. It should be a lot easier to knock an 800 or 1000 horse engine together from a 5.7 liter V-8 than to put together a boiler that can feed it, and still fit behind the driver…assuming you want to build a car capable of going that fast.
Regards,
Ken
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2012 11:13AM by frustrated.
Thanks for the offer! I don’t have any immediate plans to build an LSR engine, truthfully there are too many unfinished projects right now and the over time situation makes me wonder whether I’ll finish up before I retire. Maybe in 5 or 10 years or so if things get under better control. Of course, circumstances (and other people) often cause 'the best-laid plans of mice and Ken to often go astray', so I try to toss in a few weasel words here to cover my bases...
I came up with the cartridge valves as a simple, low cost way of building a steam automobile on a minimum budget and low timeframe. Preferentially, you’d get a number of partners together all building cars and pool your resources to get the valve cartridges turned by a machine shop with a light CNC capability. As you know, the setup is what really costs, after you get past that the price per unit isn’t bad. If you can spread the setup costs out, the whole thing is more affordable.
More preferentially, you’d all use the same donor engine and build patterns for a common cylinder head design to be cast by a decent foundry…I know a couple places that would do a good job in stainless. With patterns you could keep the part mostly thin and light, adding reinforcing ribs and mounting bosses at critical points…but the odds of getting any number of steam people to agree to work in unison to that degree is vanishingly small. Hence the steel plate.
Overall, I’d say 3/8 inch thickness is probably more than adequate. Off the top of my head maybe about 7.5 x 16 for an I-4 or about 5.5 x 22 for a V-8. If you wanted even more rigidity in the plate, a couple of strongbacks could be welded along the top; they could be perhaps 3/8 wide and ¾ tall. With all this welding I’d have the part stress relieved before grinding.
Personally, I don’t think expander development should be part of the critical pathway for a steam LSR development program, the number of cylinder block/crankcase options out there with a history of handling that kind of power is enormous and your only job is to route steam rather than a fuel/air mixture into the top of the jugs. Like almost every competitor at LeMans, we need to reduce the power below that of a stock Corvette to keep legal, production engines can potentially handle huge power. The bigger issue is going to be putting together a steam generator capable of pumping out the kind of steam volume the mill will demand and doing so reliably. It should be a lot easier to knock an 800 or 1000 horse engine together from a 5.7 liter V-8 than to put together a boiler that can feed it, and still fit behind the driver…assuming you want to build a car capable of going that fast.
Regards,
Ken
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2012 11:13AM by frustrated.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 07, 2012 10:08AM |
Admin Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 531 |
The Chicken and the Land speed record. For years, my Prairie Road neighbor has been building an Otto cycle dual engined land speed record car, and he hopes to soon make it to Bonneville with it. The car weighs about 4,500 pounds, has a very small frontal area, but is 42 feet long. I asked Forest, who is my chrome plater, "why exactly is the neighbor's land speed record car 42 feet long?" Forest said "that it is all about the chicken and its egg." He asked me "how far does a chicken have to push on an egg to be laid?" I guessed, "about the length of the egg?" He said, "No, the chicken pushes it out only as far as the largest diameter has passed and then the rest of the egg follows without any effort. The land speed record cars also works on the same principle. The car needs only enough horse power to push a big enough hole through the air for the car to pass to reach its record speed. With the correctly formed body, its long back end has to fill the hole left behind in the air without any suction. At those high speeds, the air around you is like a wall of bricks. Every brick has to be replaced behind you as you push on through them. The neighbor has done extensive wind tunnel tests and at the speeds that he expects to hit, he has found with his body, exactly forty two feet is where the hole left behind him closes naturally without any loss of horse power. I was impressed with the careful study that the neighbor has done with land speed record wind resistance. With a 2012 wind tunnel tested body, Jim Crank's land speed record steam car could have easily turn a better land speed record.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 07, 2012 02:29PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 17 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 07, 2012 03:19PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
Hey Jim,
I found what you need!
[www.bigredhair.com]
What could be better then steam powered legs?
Thought you could use a little chuckle.
Caleb Ramsby
I found what you need!
[www.bigredhair.com]
What could be better then steam powered legs?
Thought you could use a little chuckle.
Caleb Ramsby
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! January 12, 2012 12:55PM |
Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 10 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! February 02, 2012 10:13AM |
Admin Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 2,086 |
Hi Caleb,
I'll see your dime novels and raise you the actual patent drawing from which they were based! I've heard that the machine was actually built and demonstrated.
Ken
I'll see your dime novels and raise you the actual patent drawing from which they were based! I've heard that the machine was actually built and demonstrated.
Ken
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! February 12, 2012 11:38AM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 10 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! February 12, 2012 06:59PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 336 |
Billy-
Yes, we are planning to make it to Speed Week in August. The guys at Cyclone tell me that they'll have the engine ready by the middle of March, so we'll begin our testing program shortly thereafter.
Right now, I'm working on a few things on the vehicle...some of the details that'll make it a bit more comfortable and easy to work with....
Cheers--Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
Yes, we are planning to make it to Speed Week in August. The guys at Cyclone tell me that they'll have the engine ready by the middle of March, so we'll begin our testing program shortly thereafter.
Right now, I'm working on a few things on the vehicle...some of the details that'll make it a bit more comfortable and easy to work with....
Cheers--Chuk
TEAM STEAM-USA
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! February 27, 2012 01:09PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 215 |
I posted some updated information on the progress and dyno testing of the Cyclone engine for the land speed record car, it is posted on the Cyclone engine thread part 2 as started by Scott Finnegan. Just wanted interested persons to know that some progress in dyno testing have taken place and from what I am told very optimistic in the engine coming to completion.
George
George
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! March 23, 2012 03:19PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 336 |
Hey Everyone!
Regrettably, I must announce that Cyclone Power and I are going to terminate our collaboration on the Land Speed Record attempt for steam powered vehicles. We have different objectives and timetables for the project. I wish them luck with all their future pursuits.
I want to again Thank every one for all your support and interest-tis a shame that things have turned out the way they have.
Nevertheless, the Project will go on...with a different steam plant and a few other changes.
I appreciate your continued support.
Chuk Williams
Regrettably, I must announce that Cyclone Power and I are going to terminate our collaboration on the Land Speed Record attempt for steam powered vehicles. We have different objectives and timetables for the project. I wish them luck with all their future pursuits.
I want to again Thank every one for all your support and interest-tis a shame that things have turned out the way they have.
Nevertheless, the Project will go on...with a different steam plant and a few other changes.
I appreciate your continued support.
Chuk Williams
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! March 23, 2012 03:30PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
chuk williams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I want to again Thank every one for all your
> support and interest-tis a shame that things have
> turned out the way they have.
>
> Nevertheless, the Project will go on...with a
> different steam plant and a few other changes.
>
> I appreciate your continued support.
Hi Chuck:
That's a tough gig, I'm really sorry it didn't work out. Just from our one meeting at Sacramento I can tell you are a dedicated and resourceful person. I know you have the drive and the ability to keep this project moving forward.
I'm sorry I can only provide moral support here; next life I'll win the lottery and finance the whole project!
Keep on steaming!
Bill
-------------------------------------------------------
> I want to again Thank every one for all your
> support and interest-tis a shame that things have
> turned out the way they have.
>
> Nevertheless, the Project will go on...with a
> different steam plant and a few other changes.
>
> I appreciate your continued support.
Hi Chuck:
That's a tough gig, I'm really sorry it didn't work out. Just from our one meeting at Sacramento I can tell you are a dedicated and resourceful person. I know you have the drive and the ability to keep this project moving forward.
I'm sorry I can only provide moral support here; next life I'll win the lottery and finance the whole project!
Keep on steaming!
Bill
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! March 23, 2012 04:04PM |
Registered: 19 years ago Posts: 657 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! March 23, 2012 06:53PM |
Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 2 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! March 23, 2012 08:28PM |
Admin Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 2,086 |
I really don't think it is productive to look for specific reasons, assign responsibility or otherwise delve into this very far. An arrangement like this is usually contractual and thus limits what either party can say regarding the venture itself or the other participants...even upon (or sometimes especially upon) dissolution.
Just as a matter of courtesy, it would probably be best not to put either Chuk or Cyclone in a position of having to refuse to comment. I do think it fair to note that the LSR project is essentially a non-profit group and Cyclone is a corporate entity, both obviously have different interests and must answer to a different group of stakeholders.
I will make the personal observation that such joint ventures may start out of mutual benefit but become less so as the cirumstances surrounding contributors, investors, customers and participants evolve over time.
So, I simply ask that we respect the interests of the parties involved and try to limit our commentary and inquiries to the positive realm of future challenges.
Regards,
Ken Helmick
( SACA VP and Phorum Administrator)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 08:29PM by frustrated.
Just as a matter of courtesy, it would probably be best not to put either Chuk or Cyclone in a position of having to refuse to comment. I do think it fair to note that the LSR project is essentially a non-profit group and Cyclone is a corporate entity, both obviously have different interests and must answer to a different group of stakeholders.
I will make the personal observation that such joint ventures may start out of mutual benefit but become less so as the cirumstances surrounding contributors, investors, customers and participants evolve over time.
So, I simply ask that we respect the interests of the parties involved and try to limit our commentary and inquiries to the positive realm of future challenges.
Regards,
Ken Helmick
( SACA VP and Phorum Administrator)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 08:29PM by frustrated.
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! March 23, 2012 08:31PM |
Admin Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 2,086 |
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Re: US Land Steam Record!! March 23, 2012 09:44PM |
Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 641 |
frustrated Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PS.....the Phorum Administrator part means I can
> delete your posts if you don't take the hint!
> >neener<
Well said, sir--and I appreciate the controls being in place. I've been on forums that have been totally out of control, I think civility and consideration for others is so important.
Thanks again,
Bill
-------------------------------------------------------
> PS.....the Phorum Administrator part means I can
> delete your posts if you don't take the hint!
> >neener<
Well said, sir--and I appreciate the controls being in place. I've been on forums that have been totally out of control, I think civility and consideration for others is so important.
Thanks again,
Bill
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