71,000 Duke of Gloucester

Hi all:

I did a search on this Forum and couldn't find any reference to the title subject, so I thought I'd throw out some bait and see if there's any interest.

Has anybody else followed the restoration and modernization project on the English locomotive, the No. 71,000 "Duke of Gloucester"?

Here's a link to a good description, beautiful photos and lots of details:

[www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk]

This project is a tremendous success and has some unique properties in its design, updates and operating character.

Please let me know if there's some interest and I'll throw out some teasers to open discussion with.

Bill H.

Hi Bill,

Yes, theres been some pretty recent interest in locomotives posted to the forum here. I remembered reading a posting here on the forum, from back several months ago. The reason that I knew it was here on the forum, is because its something that remember as it came up new. However it was a British development, called an A1 pepper-corn, the Tornado. The last one in existence was #60116 that I believe was scrapped in 1966. The new A1 called Tornado is #60163. I have a really excellent reference for very early Locomotives such as 4-6-0 and 4-8-4 and the like.

I did a search here on the forum using "Tornado" as the keyword and found the posting that I was thinking of, its-

[www.steamautomobile.com]

scroll back to top of post, if it does not put you there, the video link is at the top.

I checked the video-link, in the post and its still working, but you have to wait for a 30 second commercial to play first, before you can see the Locomotive, actually as I was searching around the net, none of the videos that I found, was as good as that one.


Best


Jeremy

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Jeremy Holmes
Hi Bill,

Yes, theres been some pretty recent interest in locomotives posted to the forum here. I remembered reading a posting here on the forum, from back several months ago. The reason that I knew it was here on the forum, is because its something that remember as it came up new. However it was a British development, called an A1 pepper-corn, the Tornado. The last one in existence was #60116 that I believe was scrapped in 1966. The new A1 called Tornado is #60163. I have a really excellent reference for very early Locomotives such as 4-6-0 and 4-8-4 and the like.

Yes--I saw the thread on the Tornado; this was a new build on a previous English steam loco design--but I really believe it's inferior to the 71000 project. Must have cost them a king's ransom to tool-up for a brand-new project as opposed to a restoration and upgrade like the "Duke". I can only imagine how they must have been constrained by the contractual agreements involved in attracting that amount of money.

Again--I'll be glad to post some teasers.

Bill



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2009 06:50PM by Bill Hinote.

"Two faults had been found in respect of the boiler during restoration, one a mistake in design, another a mistake in construction.

Ray Hatton, a former Crewe fireman stated quite bluntly that, in the old days, if he was rostered for 'The Duke' he would go sick rather than endure the ordeal of trying to raise steam."


do you know what the faults were Bill? Now, you have me curious..


Best

Jeremy

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Jeremy Holmes
do you know what the faults were Bill? Now, you have me curious..

I had that info--I'll find it again and get back to you.

in the meantime, here's a link to a great youtube clip, showing her in operation:

[www.youtube.com]

--there's several interesting facts that can be gleaned, just from this one clip. BTW once there, you can see links to a pretty good collection of other clips on the same subject. Enjoy!!

Bill

Quote
Jeremy Holmes
"Two faults had been found in respect of the boiler during restoration, one a mistake in design, another a mistake in construction.

Ray Hatton, a former Crewe fireman stated quite bluntly that, in the old days, if he was rostered for 'The Duke' he would go sick rather than endure the ordeal of trying to raise steam."

do you know what the faults were Bill? Now, you have me curious..

<A surprise came early in the restoration of No 71000 when a new ashpan was being constructed. The old ashpan was of a through compartment hopper type, but advanced corrosion meant that it was only fit for scrap. No drawings were available at the time so, in order to keep the work moving as planned, team leader Chris Ball fabricated a new ashpan assembly using the dimensions of the original as reference. On completion, the BR drawings had come to hand so Chris checked his new ashpan against them and was amazed to find that the damper door air spaces (through which air passes to the firegate), were too small by 72sq in! The old ashpan was immediately compared and, as it had been the source of the measurements, was also deficient in air space. Quite clearly, the mistake had been made in construction. The new ashpan was quickly and easily corrected.

Certain factors were taken into account when assessing the importance of the deficiency in the damper door air space. The deficiency was all on the front and at the bottom, i.e. nearest the track, which would give it more significance. In 1961 Crewe enginemen had complained that that there was not enough air through the firebed and slots were cut in the sides of the old ashpan in an attempt to rectify this, with a degree of success. However, considered opinion was that this might have been a contributary factor to poor steaming, but not the main cause. Detailed research was put under way in an endeavour to establish if other deep seated flaws were present in the boiler design.>

<in the course of the restoration, it was discovered that the chimney assembly had been wrongly designed, throttling the exhaust steam. The mysterious steaming problem had been found ! A chimney of different design and much larger size was manufactured and fitted.>

<Many years later other information came to light from Crewe Works. It would seem that the Works had been frequently asked to deal with a problem of the cylinder relief valves operating unnecessarily but nothing was ever found to be wrong with them or their settings.The fact was that the valves were operating because of a throttled exhaust causing excessive back pressure when the engine was working hard! The steam chest pressure was noted to rise above boiler pressure at these times, indicating excessive compression in the cylinders. It might be logically reasoned that, with relief valves set at 265 lb/sq.in and continually operating, the pressure in the cylinders would have been greater than boiler pressure (250 lb/sq.in) and would have affected steam admission.>

Hi Bill,

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<A surprise came early in the restoration of No 71000 when a new ashpan was being constructed. The old ashpan was of a through compartment hopper type, but advanced corrosion meant that it was only fit for scrap. No drawings were available at the time so, in order to keep the work moving as planned, team leader Chris Ball fabricated a new ashpan assembly using the dimensions of the original as reference. On completion, the BR drawings had come to hand so Chris checked his new ashpan against them and was amazed to find that the damper door air spaces (through which air passes to the firegate), were too small by 72sq in! The old ashpan was immediately compared and, as it had been the source of the measurements, was also deficient in air space. Quite clearly, the mistake had been made in construction. The new ashpan was quickly and easily corrected.

That is a big difference, I have a hell of a time calculating the specs, for such things, with my solid-fuel burners

Thanks for the informative reply.


Jeremy

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Bill Hinote
--there's several interesting facts that can be gleaned, just from this one clip. BTW once there, you can see links to a pretty good collection of other clips on the same subject. Enjoy!!

Here's some things to consider while watching this link:

1. The appearance of the exhaust varies in an apparently random fashion (not talking about the steam portion BTW); this is because 71000 is hand-stoked, and the new coal upsets the firebed. 65 lb per mile BTW--that'll make a man outta ya!

2. The exhaust has a very distinctive sound, created by several things working in tandem: 1) The Kylchap exhaust design is really working hard; 2) There are 6 exhaust pulses per rev due to the 3 cylinders double acting.

3. The exhaust velocity at the stack is obviously very high. The draft through the boiler at speed must be something to behold; it's a wonder the fireman/stoker doesn't get sucked in when he opens the stoking doors!

4. This sucker runs like a bat outta hell!

Bill

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Bill Hinote
This project is a tremendous success and has some unique properties in its design, updates and operating character.

Please let me know if there's some interest and I'll throw out some teasers to open discussion with.
.

Here's some pretty interesting facts about this loco:

It uses the so-called "British Caprotti" valvegear. This was an improvement (by the Brits of course) on the original Caprotti concept. It uses poppet valves (like an ICE) and has cams to operate them. The cam thing is quite complex and slides to create changes in cutoff as required, as well as reverse.

There's no radial valve driving gear (Stephenson link, Walschaerts, etc., etc.) so the traditional appearance of complex thingys oscillating back and forth is absent. Instead, there's a skew gear on one of the drivers on each side which drives a shaft with ujoints into the valve box with the cams. I wonder which side drives the center set (doesn't matter--it's just a matter of timing).

Apparently they are able to start the loco+train with less than 100% cutoff (I think 70% was mentioned); this would be because of the 6 cylinders which provide 50% more power per rev than our American versions. Also, at some point the throttle is fully opened and the power-change requirements are met exclusively by altering the cutoff. Ahh--here's an actual application of an ideal steam power control!!

BTW this loco is tiny by historical American standards--but the Brits aren't concerned with that aspect--they can claim efficiencies far beyond anything we ever achieved.

I hope some of you find this interesting.

Bill

Bill,

What is all that black stuff coming out the stack? Although they may have looked nice, they were really an environmental disaster with all the ash sent into the air. I traveled on interstate steam trains in New South Wales and Victoria in the 1950s and was covered in soot by the time I got to my destination. It was in your hair, ears, nose, all over shirt collars and cuffs etc. If you tried to look ahead out a window you probably got a lump of coal in your eyes almost immediately.

I understand some economy improvements raised the efficiency of some designs from around 8% to the order of 14%. When converted to oil firing this was expensive compared to the diesel locos. Light Steam Power ran some articles on coal slurry fuels that were clean burning. Developments of that time may have been too little and too late. I think the steam locos had some additional disadvantages such as high overall manpower needs and expensive maintenance. Restored passenger steam trains are still operated here for special events and draw a good crowd. The smart passengers use clear plastic eye protectors to enjoy views in all directions.

It was nice growing up with them and our toy train collection only has live steam or steam designs in it.

Graeme

Hi All,

Im still out of town, using the wifes computer, she has one of those wireless laptops. I wanted to attach a picture of the double or triple Kylchap exhaust there are some really good drawings of this, in the book -The pictorial history of steam.

Quote

2. The exhaust has a very distinctive sound, created by several things working in tandem: 1) The Kylchap exhaust design is really working hard; 2) There are 6 exhaust pulses per rev due to the 3 cylinders double acting.

Jeremy

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gvagg2
Bill,

What is all that black stuff coming out the stack? Although they may have looked nice, they were really an environmental disaster with all the ash sent into the air.

I can't imagine a hand-fired, coal-burning loco.

I grew up with the last of the oil-fired locos on the Southern Pacific, in California. They were pretty clean--I recall that the company viewed anything darker than a pure white steam plume was poor performance and coordination between engineer and fireman.

I recently went to Sunol to view the restored Southern Pacific #2472 in operation; they don't baby this beast! Here's a youtube link to one of the runs I witnessed on this last Memorial Day Holiday:

[www.youtube.com]

Bill

Bill,

Here are some details of the C38 class that was probably the largest hand coal fired loco used here until 1967. The 100 mile trip from Sydney to Newcastle consume 4.5 tons and was full time work for one fireman. A larger Beyer Garratt AD60 4.8.4 + 4.8.4 class had a mechanical stoker. [www.powerhousemuseum.com]. Larger engines could not be used due to track and bridge weight and speed limitations. The AD60 could be used due to lower wheel loads and its articulated design. UK and Australia had plenty of coal but no local oil until more recent times.

Graeme

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Bill Hinote
I recall that the company viewed anything darker than a pure white steam plume was poor performance and coordination between engineer and fireman.

I recently went to Sunol to view the restored Southern Pacific #2472 in operation; they don't baby this beast! Here's a youtube link to one of the runs I witnessed on this last Memorial Day Holiday:

BTW the current operation of the SP #2472 is considerably more lax in the firing department. The fireman just seems to let the firing rate rip, without due regard about whether there's sufficient combustion air supplied to match. The result is an occasional roiling cloud of acrid black smoke. Different times, there!

Bill