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New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.

Posted by Jim Crank 
New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
June 24, 2006 05:16PM
The Group,

OK, I looked at the drawings this morning.

Last Friday, my editor and I were going through the last of the Doble archives to see if we missed anything. In one of the boxes, were some rolls of original drawings that the late Roy Anderson made some years ago. They are for a 60 hp automobile steam plant. They are an enlargement of his 20 hp engine system, which he did make.
A 90° vee twin double acting compound, 2" X 3-1/2" X 3" with large piston valves and good porting. It appears to have a two speed transmission built in. Very similar to the Besler Chevy system and the second Besler airplane engine.
The steam generator is a Doble F type with a helical coil and quartz rod thermostat, and tangential firing.

Drawings Found.
23 Engine drawings.
13 steam generator drawings.
Some for an open crankshaft vertical marine compound engine,with shifting eccentric reverse, also Hackworth and Marshall valve gear variations.
Full scale layout for the Locomobile engine and the frame.
There is no feed pump drawing, so use a CAT pump.

In case you don't recall Roy from the early SACA days, he was a most skilled engine designer, being the chief engineer for Enterprise Diesel and later Winslow Filter. He was the one who designed the Besler Chevy engine and made all the drawings for Bill.

They are plenty good enough for anyone who has a home shop to make the parts, like a 12"-14" lathe, mill and drill press.

It is no "ultra" steam engine; but one that works, as the Besler Chevy and the airplane engine demonstrated quite well. This Anderson system is a good basic steam car powerplant that should work very well in something like a Mazda Miata.
With the cost today of reproducing drawings, at least around here, I am just guessing that a package would be around $250-$300.00.

NO, I will not discuss "Improving" the engine, as such dream engines never get built anyhow. This is a very basic and well designed engine and steam generator system that would certainly run a lighter weight car very well.
It is what it is.

Does anyone want to take up the task and fund the castings kit and make a few?

Comments?

JC





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2006 12:53PM by James D. Crank.
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
June 26, 2006 07:07AM
Jim.

What type of boiler is this design. The engine sounds interesting. But I think the LaMont or stand pipe water level control is an improvement that should be applied to any modern design.

I have been looking into building some atom like frames. And think that with a low tech engine it would sell a few in kit form. What are the over all demensions of this engine? Height, width, depth...

Andy
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 12, 2006 05:03PM
Jim,

I for one would be interested in the drawings, the engineering of the Doble's was first rate so I would think that the drawings are also well thought out.

Cheers Ken
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 20, 2006 12:08PM
Jim,

Would this engine and steam generator fit in a Mazda Miata?

Regards'
John
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 21, 2006 04:41AM
John,
Yes it would. Looked at one yesterday, and saw that there is plenty of room under the hood, and even better if the steam generator was in the trunk on it's side.
Front condenser and one under the hood area. 6 sq/ft to condense under most conditions, 8 would be even better.
Contact Tom Kimmel about future kits and/or drawing sets.
JC
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 21, 2006 06:17AM
Jim,

Do you think the Super S.A.S.S. boiler designed by RJ Smith would be sufficient to power a Mazda Miata with this engine? It appears that it would fit nicely in the trunk space of a Miata.

Regards'

John
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 22, 2006 05:50AM
John,
Probably if the Smith boiler control system is developed enough to be reliable.
I remember it and at one time had one; but don't recall it beyond that.
I am not even sure what I had was really the SASS coil stack. It was about 2-1/2' long and concentric helical coils with a long firebox volume down the middle.

Let us assume this engine can produce 60 hp. OK, being a compound, let us say it has a 15 lb water rate, just to be very conservative. Then the Smith boiler has to produce 900 lbs/hr. If it can do that, then it would be usable; but that seems to be pushing it rather hard.
Assume an evaporation rate of 20 lbs/sq/ft/hr, then the SASS coil stack has to have about 45 sq/ft of heating surface. Don't know if it has this, or what it had.
At any rate, such a steam generator with concentric coils can easily be designed.

Obviously you don't need full power all the time, so more like 20 hp for normal road use is what to expect. That means a 300 lb/hr steam rate and that the Smith coil stack should do.
Knowing Roy's ideas, I would say that the engine was designed to use steam at 600-750 psi @ 700°F.
JC
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 24, 2006 11:11AM
Hello,

I checked on a 93 Mazda Miata. It has about 116 HP engine. So, if, one could put a well functioning 100 HP steam engine of no more than 3-400 pounds heavier weight into one, how would the driving experience differ?? What can we look forward to?

Thank You ----------- Bill G.
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 24, 2006 06:23PM
Bill,
It would not be 300-400 pounds heavier. If done right it should be no heavier than the IC engine and transmission, otherwise you would have to put in much heavier springs to cope with the load.
Have to change the rear end gear ratio. Should be a nice car. Depends on how well one makes it and how good a response the burner/steam generator works.
JC
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 25, 2006 04:42AM
Well Jim,

That is encouraging. I thought that generally an equivalent HP steam engine system weighed more by about a boilers worth.

What I am hearing though for steam is how great the starting torque is, like an electric car, and how well the Doble did against the GTO. So what I am wondering is, what is it like to drive a well built steam car. Other than the different instrumentation, gauges and such, how would you know you were in one?

Thanks --------- Bill G.
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 25, 2006 06:51AM
Bill,

Certainly not, the engine is the lighter part. I suspect this Anderson engine can easily be picked up and carried in one's arms.
I could pick up and hold the Besler Kaiser engine and also the steam generator.
Just keep the components and plumbing to the absolute minimum.

I have no idea what the starting torque of the Anderson engine is: but I would certainly change the rear end ratio and get one made for road racing. They are usually stronger than stock gears.

How would you know? Lots of starting torque, no gearshifting, a rumble from under the hood, a little clicking from the feed pump, and the occasional foot stinging backfires.
JC
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 25, 2006 07:12PM
A modern steam car would also have one more item to have to keep aboard in good supply... water. A longer check list before departing is also another steam car requirement. The stinging foot from a backfire is very visual to the person following a Doble. I followed Allen Brazil soon after he had bought Barney Beckers Doble (about 1986?) and Allen was getting fantastic backfires all that day. A large puff of black soot, along with loud reports; the Doble just kept on rolling along. With all of the back fires that he was having, I would have thought that he would have soon ran out of that plume of black soot. I have driven Marty Anderson's Doble and it never did backfire all day. A well performing modern steamer will not have any backfires. :-)
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 26, 2006 05:02AM
Pat,

Only the lucky ones, we hope.
Too many Stanleys have been seen not only backfiring all the time; but frequently catching on fire. Not to forget the stink of that Diesel-kerosene mix.

The problem with E-14, and E-23, is that long ago they was changed from the carburetor burner to a pressure atomizing type. This eliminated the nice automatic air/fuel balance that the carburetors provided. Now the ratio is by a little knob on the steering column.
Allen had to get used to what it wanted, depending on what fuel he was using.
JC
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 26, 2006 06:24PM
Dear Jim, Stanleys, more than any other steamer, have given the steam car a bad rap by all of the fire that people have seen coming out of the Stanleys. Hopefully a modern steam car won't have any flooded burners or any other flaming reasons to scare the population with. As for the stink, anytime that I have used diesel in a Stanley, I always have had stink to content with. Using straight kerosene just about cleans up any oder. With straight unleaded gas, there isn't any oder at all unless the pilot light goes out, then you know that it is out because your eyes will burn with the raw fumes in the air. That is when you turn off your main fuel as quick as you can and keep rolling to vent off the fumes before they backfire in the burner. When the fumes are cleared, stop and relight the burner, first by passing the torch cautiously over the smoke bonnet door. Usually, that is all it takes to relight the pilot.
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
July 27, 2006 05:27AM
Pat,
A modern steamer should never behave like that.

The real shining example of how not to run a Stanley was, I think, Pat Craig. The choking fumes when he lit up drove everyone out of range. Too much Diesel.

My Stanley did the same thing. I think it is all centered around their pilot lights. Not the best design and not big enough, nor shielded very well.
The White, on the other hand, had a rather fierce pilot and was very well shielded.
I often wondered if that primary air coming up around the whole pilot burner was responsible for how well they work.
Tried to burn kerosene in it once and set the thing alight. Switched to unleaded gas for the main burner and Hexane for the pilot and that really worked perfectly all the time.
JC
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
August 29, 2006 06:08PM
Dear Sir,
I am pehaps interested in a set of the drawings ; May I Ask: what year(s) these drawings were from ?
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
September 06, 2006 03:49PM
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
Posted by: Bondjamesbond (IP Logged)
Date: August 30, 2006 04:08AM

Dear Sir,
I am pehaps interested in a set of the drawings ;
May I Ask: what year(s) these drawings were from ?
Could you, not less expensively than printing copies, just have
proper scans done at the print shop & a CD made of these.
Buyers could then print at will as needed for experiments.
It is the modern age after all.
[ bondjamesbond @ rock .com ]
Spread apart for those fine robots

Hope to hear from you.
Cheers
Bond
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
September 06, 2006 04:55PM
You will need to contact Tom Kimmel about your interest in these drawings.

When the website went down several important messages on this thread disappeared.
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
September 07, 2006 06:22AM
Dear Mr. Finegan,
Who Please is Tom Kimmel & how would one contact him ?
Bond
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
September 07, 2006 04:16PM
Go to the front page of this website,
page down until you find him, or go to the contacts page.

Scott
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
September 09, 2006 05:16PM
Thank You Mr. Finegan
Best Regards
James
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
March 23, 2007 05:04PM
Jim,

I read thru this story of yours, I like it. Now that ummm umm Bond James isnt around that ive seen lately. I think it should have another go.

"New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
Posted by: James D. Crank (IP Logged)
Date: June 25, 2006 03:16AM


The Group,

OK, I looked at the drawings this morning.

Last Friday, my editor and I were going through the last of the Doble archives to see if we missed anything. In one of the boxes, were some rolls of original drawings that the late Roy Anderson made some years ago. They are for a 60 hp automobile steam plant. They are an enlargement of his 20 hp engine system, which he did make.
A 90° vee twin double acting compound, 2" X 3-1/2" X 3" with large piston valves and good porting. It appears to have a two speed transmission built in. Very similar to the Besler Chevy system and the second Besler airplane engine.
The steam generator is a Doble F type with a helical coil and quartz rod thermostat, and tangential firing.

Drawings Found.
23 Engine drawings.
13 steam generator drawings.
Some for an open crankshaft vertical marine compound engine,with shifting eccentric reverse, also Hackworth and Marshall valve gear variations.
Full scale layout for the Locomobile engine and the frame.
There is no feed pump drawing, so use a CAT pump.

In case you don't recall Roy from the early SACA days, he was a most skilled engine designer, being the chief engineer for Enterprise Diesel and later Winslow Filter. He was the one who designed the Besler Chevy engine and made all the drawings for Bill.

They are plenty good enough for anyone who has a home shop to make the parts, like a 12"-14" lathe, mill and drill press.

It is no "ultra" steam engine; but one that works, as the Besler Chevy and the airplane engine demonstrated quite well. This Anderson system is a good basic steam car powerplant that should work very well in something like a Mazda Miata.
With the cost today of reproducing drawings, at least around here, I am just guessing that a package would be around $250-$300.00.

NO, I will not discuss "Improving" the engine, as such dream engines never get built anyhow. This is a very basic and well designed engine and steam generator system that would certainly run a lighter weight car very well.
It is what it is.

Does anyone want to take up the task and fund the castings kit and make a few?

Comments?

JC

-NO, I will not discuss "Improving" the engine, as such dream engines never get built anyhow.-

I like your attitude on this.

Also, I would like to know how your doing with your book. Seems to me a print package for the Anderson engine, would complement your work nicely. I think you have selected a cornerstone based on your experience, with whats actually been made and works. Let us stand back from your perspective and learn whats already been done. Keep at it...

I got a letter hand signed from Tom a few years back. I wanted to thank him for that on the board here. I got the letter exactly on my birthday, I made me feel good. He remarked that he found my site just looking around for this or that and found it on a search.

If some casting's were made it would be really neat Jim. To me thats added incentive, sounds like youd be interested in consulting abit, on such a project.

Jeremy

Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
March 24, 2007 05:48PM
Jeremy,
Tom Kimmel now has all the Anderson drawings. If enough were to commit to funding the patterns, castings and such, either the 20 hp or the 60 hp engines could be built.
Neither are what some think are optimum; but both are sensible designs and can be made with the usual home machine shop tools. Have to start somewhere.
JC
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
March 24, 2007 06:16PM
Greetings Mr Holmes,

Just what were you inferring , by your comment:

"Now that ummm umm Bond James isnt around that ive seen lately. I think it should have another go."

I don't recall saying anything to receive your scorn.
Good day,
James
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
March 25, 2007 07:42AM
Take it easy there tiger, LOL

Youve got to admit this tread went off topic abit. Thats all I was reffering to. Sorry if you interperated it that way.

Is your name really James Bond? you must admit thats gotta cause some distraction.

Anyway I would like to see what Jim sees in this engine. Personally I think theres something there. This engine could be built and most likely serve as a bench mark. Also its a way that Jims experience could be passed on. There are many ideas about steam car engine design, this would simply be a real world example.

Jeremy
Re: New Steam Car Powerplant Possibility.
March 26, 2007 04:42AM
Jeremy,

What I see in the Anderson engine is nothing special. I think it would be a nice first effort and would work. Anderson was no amateur, he knew what he was doing.
He was the design engineer for Besler's Chevy conversion for G.M., and this engine is identical, except it doesn't use a sawed in half small block; but has it's own crankcase.

What it was, was a nice 60 hp DA vee compound with piston valves that can be made without much effort on any well equipped home shop.
It would make a good doable project and provide a system that any skilled person can make, and give him a running steam car. Seems that many people want a new steam car in this group, well, this is one way to get one.

The configuration means the easiest way to put it in a car, is up against the firewall, with the steam generator in front of it, or in the trunk. Just keep the car weight down for good performance, about 2,000-2,800 pounds, as a sports car, or an old Corvair convertible.
After that, then start looking at dream engines and improved versions, or new designs if one wanted to do that.

If enough people got together and funded the patterns and castings, then the cost would be moderate. Talk to Tom Kimmel about this, he now owns the drawing package.
What I suggested to Tom, was to have copies made for the 60 hp version and sell them via the SACA stores.
All I suggest is that this would be a good first effort.
JC
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