Steam related discussions.http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/list.php?1Mon, 06 Sep 2010 09:16:06 -0500 Phorum 5.2.14 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15996,15996#msg-15996 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15996,15996#msg-15996
The Berrien Springs Meet is coming up quickly...time to get things together to bring to the show! This year's Meet is shaping up to be a really good one-lots of interesting speakers, tricky steam stuff...new vehicles-and the Time Trials.

Beginning with Wednesday afternoon-we'll have the annual Directors Meeting, which everyone is welcome to attend. Afterwards we'll be off to Tom Kimmel's house to be fed and entertained at his annual Open House evening...it's always good to get together there and meet old friends and make new ones!

Thursday we'll really get underway with lectures and talks in the morning, then playing with vehicles and other steam "toys" in the afternoon. This is always a good chance to get your hands dirty,enjoying whatever people have brought to the Meet.

Friday we'll again have talks with interesting people in the morning....then off to the Track for the Time Trials in the afternoon, followed by an Awards Dinner there at the track. There's going to be a few new vehicles at the Trials this year-including Roger Ulsky's Tragster and others....there's even rumours that Bill Ryan has an entirely new/very fast go-cart that will be entered!!

Saturday will be another enjoyable day-more interesting speakers in the morning, hanging out at Tom Kimmel's fabulous shop/museum, more catching up with all the latest steam gossip, etc, etc.

Sunday is a really good day to be there also-even though Saturday is the last official day of the Meet-quite a few of us hard rock steam fiends hang around on Sunday talking and playing with steam stuff at Tom's shop. Last year, we set up Gar Dickerson's new triple-expansion Doble engine and boiler and ran it! Hopefully, he's bringing it back for everyone to enjoy this year.

This is a very friendly, gregarious group of people who attend the Meet, and we welcome all newcomers...with steam interests or without--we're interested in any steam-related subject--as well as alternative/green applications of steam power.

Our President-Tom Kimmel, really deserves a lot of credit for making the Meet what it is, and this year he has quite a few interesting individuals lined up to entertain us with their steam knowledge. His shop/museum is truly worth the trip from where ever you may be coming from-a chance to see and feel quite a large collection of steam vehicles, engines, boilers and associated hardware. Bill Ryan also deserves a hand for his part in making everything flow smoothly at the Meet.

So--saddle up your chariot and join us for the fun-Sept 15th thru the 18th/19th....you'll be glad you did!!!


Cheers---Chuk Williams]]> chuk williams SteamStuffSat, 04 Sep 2010 07:03:52 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15995#msg-15995 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15995#msg-15995
The White steam car web site is still being set up and still has very little information. Looks like they could do with a lot of help.
[www.whitesteamcar.com]

Graeme]]> gvagg2 SteamStuffFri, 03 Sep 2010 00:40:08 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15994,15994#msg-15994 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15994,15994#msg-15994Also, it looks like the Plymouth conversion recently mentioned onthe Forum has the original White condenser assembly stuck in under the Plymouth hood when you compare the shapes.]]> Karl Petersen SteamStuffFri, 03 Sep 2010 00:21:34 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,15991#msg-15991 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,15991#msg-15991
Yes, I read on your site, about your recent "notice of allowance" regarding, your 6th US patent. Definitly exciting stuff, as I once said before, "Harry your living the Dream".

best wishes

Jeremy]]> Jeremy Holmes SteamStuffSun, 29 Aug 2010 13:47:36 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15990#msg-15990 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15990#msg-15990 ben SteamStuffSat, 28 Aug 2010 18:06:33 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15989#msg-15989 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15989#msg-15989
Those are some keen observations. I wonder if they also changed the crosshead and connecting rod lengths, as well as frame lengths when they beefed up the frame rods for the heavier engine. There is also the detail of the wall thickness of the various parts of the block. The drawing set 13 shows 7/8" rods on a 5 3/4" spacing. Cylinder wall thickness of 11/32", the rest of the walls are between 9/16" and 5/16".

The only gearing reported in the drawing set is 82 teeth on the engine and 48 on the differential.

Does anyone know if they used ferrules on the Rockets boiler, or when they began to use them or was that more of an aftermarket thing? It seems to me that the ferrules would have a lot to do with the min tube spacing.

Caleb Ramsby]]> Caleb Ramsby SteamStuffSat, 28 Aug 2010 15:27:12 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15988#msg-15988 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15988#msg-15988I noticed in the photos of the wrack in 1907 there was no indication of the copper cylinder lagging around the engine or rear end housing. It is told they swapped out the engine with one that was in the Vanderbilt just before the race of the wrack. Not a lot of wt there. The early frame 30 HP engine is kind of skimpy from the one’s I’ve seen.
They started using the 30 HP engine in 1908 in the model K-M-and Z same frame rod spacing as the 20 HP engine 5-3/4, but with 7/8 bolts.

The 30 HP of 1910 was heaver with 6-3/4 bolt spacing and one inch frame rods. Then in 1915 they went to 1-1/8 rods. Same spacing.

Kit Foster book page 219 story by Marriott told by Tom Marshall, the burner had four nozzles and mixing tubes carrying 200 PSI fuel pressure.
Rolly]]> Rolly SteamStuffSat, 28 Aug 2010 12:34:14 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15987#msg-15987 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15987#msg-15987
Ironically drawing set 13 is a single piece of paper. It has undimensioned 1/3 scale drawings of the engine and dimensioned full scale drawings of part of the cylinder block and valve and ports. No drawings of the boiler, burner, pumps, axle or anything else.

The data I quoted was described as being from Fred Marriott.

Rolly/CAD Wizard,

I wonder if the prototype 4 1/2" by 6 1/2" they used on the Rocket was a bit lighter or Freds memory could have been off.

I didn't know about the tiple steam outlets, makes complete sense, they would be able to carry the water higher without local priming. Have you heard of anyone using multiple steam outlets on thier road going Stanley?

I also wonder if they changed the size of the venturis and nozzles along with the fuel pressure for 1907. Neat stuff.

In regards to tube spacing.

Here is a formula from the Machinery's Handbook that determines how many inscribed circles can fit within a circle.

N= number of inscribed circles
R= Ratio = large circle / small circle
D= large circle diameter
d= small circle diameter

N= 0.907*(((D/d)-0.94)*((D/d)-0.94))+3.7
R= 0.94+ sqrt((N-3.7)/0.907)

Using 1,478 to find R we get, 41.257. Dividing 30" by 41.257 we get .727", subtracting .515(33/64") we get .212". So that would be the min tube wall to tube wall gap according to that formula.

If instead we use 47/64" for the inscribed circle, which is .7343 and use the same ratio found above, then we get a large circle of 30.29"
With 23/32", which is .7187" we get a large circle of 29.65". These would have a tube to tube min gap of respectively .219" and .204".

For 45/64"(.7031") we get a large circle of 29" and a min gap of .1881". That sounds pretty tight, but it was a racer, it would also give the geatest clearance between the od of the outside tubes and the inside of the shell. It is also within what Rolly has found.

Caleb Ramsby]]> Caleb Ramsby SteamStuffSat, 28 Aug 2010 11:51:27 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,15986#msg-15986 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,15986#msg-15986Did not want to disturb the info on the steam powered plymouth as I found it very interesting and hope this blog continues.
FYI we recieved a couple more US patents for the Cyclone engine. One of them is related to heat transfer and it very important to the condencing and the efficency of the engine. This part works very well as there is a lot of talk of a radiator as a condencer, well it does a poor job. It is good to cool down water but not steam. 90% of our condencing occours at the cylinder port, also heat transfer to to the heat exchanger the condencer has a high centrifucal turbulance to finish the job,anouther patent. Condencing is the most difficult to do it at 100%. Still doing a lot of dyno testing . We have to have a very reliable engine and auto testing does not extract full power. Engine friction using water lube is incredibly low. This will help with a very long life engine. I will bring some hardware to the SACA meet in Sept hope to see you there.
Harry]]> HLS SteamStuffSat, 28 Aug 2010 10:03:39 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15985#msg-15985 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15985#msg-15985Kit Foster’s book
Page 217 in 1907 they jacked the pressure to 1300 PSI and ran fuel (Page 219) pressure at 200 PSI.

Original Stanley literature says the 30 HP type 4 engine Wt was 254 Lb.

All the other stuff you posted is the same. Tube count ect.
The fuel pressure of 160 most likely was 1906 record.

Karl
I also did a tube layout for the 30-inch boiler. The first time I did it as a typical Stanley layout and got 1487 tubes, not 1478. Then I remembered reading somewhere that on the racer boiler steam was drawn off from three locations. Second layout I got 1479. Unless I miss counted.
Rolly]]> Rolly SteamStuffSat, 28 Aug 2010 07:55:06 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15984#msg-15984 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15984#msg-15984
So what is the spacing or ligament which was shown on Drawing Set 13?]]> Karl Petersen SteamStuffSat, 28 Aug 2010 01:36:50 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15983#msg-15983 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15983#msg-15983
According to Drawing set 13 from Light Steam Power, which is of the Rocket Engine, the boiler had 1,478 copper tubes 33/64" od 20 gauge. 30" diameter and 18" high, 285 sq ft surface area and 512 lbs. I don't know if the weight includes the burner or not, it also states that the burner ran at 160 psi. The engine weight is stated at 205 lbs.

Caleb Ramsby]]> Caleb Ramsby SteamStuffFri, 27 Aug 2010 16:24:04 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15982#msg-15982 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15982#msg-15982Karl
I think you will find the general requirements in the ASME code in Section 1 PG-52.1
and calculation section V111 Div 1
Rolly]]> Rolly SteamStuffFri, 27 Aug 2010 15:25:05 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15981#msg-15981 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15981#msg-15981 Karl Petersen SteamStuffFri, 27 Aug 2010 09:37:00 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15980#msg-15980 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15980#msg-15980 SSsssteamer SteamStuffThu, 26 Aug 2010 13:27:41 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15979#msg-15979 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15979#msg-15979 ben SteamStuffThu, 26 Aug 2010 12:14:45 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15978#msg-15978 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15978#msg-15978It all depends who built the boiler or is building one.

I have what I believe is an original Stanley boiler 23 inch with a LIGIMENT spacing that average’s 0.189 near 750 tubes. What is more common is a LIGIMENT spacing of 0.3125 with 592 tubes.

I have seen 14 inch boilers with LIGIMENT spacing of 0.2088 with 299 tubs as well as only 250 tubes.

18 inch boilers with LIGIMENT spacing of 0.3125 and 340 tubes.
I built mine with 0.200 and have 491 tubes.

I have seen many old boilers not knowing of their originality with LIGIMENT spacing varying from as much as 0.5000 to as small as 0.189.

I hope this helps for an answer.
Rolly]]> Rolly SteamStuffThu, 26 Aug 2010 11:30:14 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15977#msg-15977 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15977#msg-15977
I can understand the access problem but you do need to look more closely at all the main fittings to assess what type of hardware has been used and whether it was once completed or not. I have no information of a conversion that matches the description so far but it is likely someone in the USA may know the background once any of the previous owner(s) can been identified. That person may not be a steam club member now or have internet access so require more detective work by someone.

The function of the drums in the trunk will be important. The vehicle needs water and fuel tanks and a boiler and all will need to be a reasonable size. There could be a water tank at the front near the engine and condenser. The round tank in the trunk could be the boiler casing or a mock up for a boiler. The boiler will need a burner attached, air intake and flue outlet cavity, plus lines going in or out for feed water supply and steam outlet. A water or fuel tank will need a filling cap either on top or on a tube attached to the tank. If fittings are missing, mounting flanges or cavities should be visible.

You will need either identification information from the owner or a lot more photographic and measurement information to work out what is there. If it has been idle for many years it will probably need a major rebuild of at least the boiler, fuel and water systems. The engine could be in good condition if still free to turn over. The car would be repairable or easy to replace if found to be a rust bucket.

The vehicle is not a classic but the steam plant may contain a lot of antique steam system parts so you would need to be familiar with the appearance of all fittings used on White and Stanley steam cars. It will be more interesting if most parts are from one manufacturer. Specialists here can identify most items from a clear photograph. It will make a very good steam project if supported with a good boiler and control system. In assessing the viability of a restoration, I would budget for a complete replacement of everything that has not been identified so far, and clean up and repair to good running condition of everything you can see.

You need to look at the drive train used in this vehicle, observing the steam engine may only have a rev limit of about 1,000 rpm. The original car was geared to give about 20mph per 1,000 rpm of the prop shaft. How many different sizes of White engines were made? The sizes I've seen so far include 2.5"hp x 4.5"lp x 3" stroke; 3" x 5" x 3.5"; 3" x 5" x 4.5" and 3" x 6" x 4.5".

The date of the vehicle could be up to 1932 and the dash trim looks like the Business Coupe style. The central instrument cluster of 5 is the standard layout. Your dash picture shows that additional steam instruments have been added behind the steering wheel. The coupe was made as a fixed top or convertible, the latter more sought after. Prices for complete original models seem to be from about $14k to $30k (show quality) but modified hot rods can cost much more.



Does the vehicle look like this overall?
[auto.howstuffworks.com]

Graeme]]> gvagg2 SteamStuffTue, 24 Aug 2010 23:23:54 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15976#msg-15976 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15976#msg-15976 Scott Osborne SteamStuffTue, 24 Aug 2010 20:11:51 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15975#msg-15975 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15975,15975#msg-15975 bill SteamStuffTue, 24 Aug 2010 19:16:21 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15819,15974#msg-15974 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15819,15974#msg-15974www.jaylenosgarage.com] . His collection of cars and motorcycles is exceptional with Stanley's Whites Dobles cars plus a Steam motorcycle. I'm sure it's the same as one I have clippings for from the 1970's Water tanks as panniers pressurized fuel tank on top of the real luggage rack and a Locomobile engine chain driving the rear wheel.
I can scan and post the clippings if anyone is interested.

Cheers]]> Marksteamnz SteamStuffTue, 24 Aug 2010 18:12:06 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15973#msg-15973 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15973#msg-15973Cheers]]> Marksteamnz SteamStuffTue, 24 Aug 2010 18:03:49 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15972#msg-15972 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15972#msg-15972 Scott Osborne SteamStuffTue, 24 Aug 2010 11:56:18 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15971#msg-15971 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15971#msg-15971 DFlowers SteamStuffMon, 23 Aug 2010 22:18:33 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15970#msg-15970 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15970#msg-15970 Scott Osborne SteamStuffMon, 23 Aug 2010 04:06:11 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15969#msg-15969 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15969#msg-15969 tkimmel@locallink.net SteamStuffSun, 22 Aug 2010 11:04:25 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15939,15968#msg-15968 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15939,15968#msg-15968
The 2010 event is currently in progress and photos are available on-line. I didn't see you in the crowd or any steam cars. The event info indicates it is an open event and free to enter or view. Non-classic cars are requested to stay out of the two curbside lanes. The event would need a group site area for parking lot displays. It is spread over 16 miles of public road and 8 separate communities so I would expect a single or small number of steamers to be simply lost in the traffic of some 40,000 display vehicles. Something unusual would be noticed briefly but may be regarded as being in the novelty/crazy display category - such as this example.
[womc.radio.com]

The SACA board could consider making a club attendance each year as it is only 3 weeks ahead of the nearby annual meet.

We have a similar national hot rod event in Canberra (Summernats) only half an hour from my home but is confined to a fairground that enables any vehicle of interest to be found and seen up close over 3 days - so a much better arrangement. Due to the high quality of attending vehicles, you wouldn't dare attend with anything less than exceptional.

I agree with Terry that a lone display in a suitable environment is far more effective and I've done that at model engineering events and in shopping centers in the past.

Graeme]]> gvagg2 SteamStuffSat, 21 Aug 2010 20:35:57 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15967#msg-15967 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15967#msg-15967 DFlowers SteamStuffSat, 21 Aug 2010 20:14:03 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15966#msg-15966 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15966#msg-15966 heavysteamer SteamStuffSat, 21 Aug 2010 10:47:47 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15963#msg-15963 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,15914,15963#msg-15963A good running White engine can bring 8-K, I notices the one in Scott’s photos does not have the fan shaft across the top.

4014_8.jpg

4014_10.jpg

Rolly
]]> Rolly SteamStuffSat, 21 Aug 2010 05:09:34 -0500