"Phorum membership is open to all, the participants are not necessarily members of the Steam Automobile Club of America and the opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect the official positions of SACA". http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/index.php Thu, 17 May 2012 11:31:28 -0500 Phorum 5.2.18 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20217#msg-20217 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20217#msg-20217 -------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,

> So when is someone going to build s neat 1910
> steam powered biplane, or has that been done
> already?


There's some pretty amazing steam powered models, they take some looking for but certainly worthwhile.

First, the Brits have had a competition class tethered hydroplane which they put in small circular ponds and run around a central pole or mast. They've been doing it since forever and there's been a surprising amount of development as a result. Here's a link to some engine info, both turbine and recip: [www.onthewire.co.uk]. Also, here's a youtube clip of some of the action: [www.youtube.com] --crazy stuff. BTW the flash boilers these things use are pretty sophisticated--not very efficient but they certainly do get the specific output from them.

As far as airplanes go, there's been some successes there, too. This website is the most comprehensive on the subject and also reveals details in boiler design and more on those hydroplanes: [www.flysteam.co.uk] Spend a while on this website, there's lots of goodies to check out!!

Bill]]> Bill Hinote SteamStuff Wed, 16 May 2012 13:36:32 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20216#msg-20216 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20216#msg-20216 Quite right, it has been many, many years since then. That Dyna-Jet, the five cylinder radial and my Dooling 61 were state of the art then.
That battery charging system you use is very good, very definitely the right way to treat the lithium battery.
So when is someone going to build s neat 1910 steam powered biplane, or has that been done already?
Jim]]> Jim Crank SteamStuff Wed, 16 May 2012 13:15:17 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20215#msg-20215 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20215#msg-20215 -------------------------------------------------------
> Bill,
>
> Oh?? You guys blast your battery charging it with
> no current control off a car battery? No wonder
> they blow up and catch fire.
> That little habit of lithium batteries does not
> exactly inspire what comes under the heading of
> confidence. The lithium-air battery is far worse,
> it can dump it's charge much faster than the
> lithium-ion polymer. One afternoon quietly working
> in my office at the Rocket Factory, I watched the
> roof of our lithium battery lab right outside my
> window take wings. Let's just say that I am
> prejudiced after seeing and hearing that one and a
> few others too. Try putting some dry ice in that
> can and keep the battery cool when you charge it
> like that. This heat problem with high capacity
> Lithium batteries is going to get worse if the
> deluded motorists keep believing the press
> releases and buying the things. Just watch.
>
> Do tell me something, since the last model
> airplane I had was powered by a Dyna-Jet, until we
> got run off the field for making too much noise.
> Why the electric motor when the correct power
> source for more or less constant speed loads like
> airplanes, boats and generators is properly the IC
> engine??
> Varying loads demand a power source that has grand
> torque starting up from rest without the crutches
> of gearboxes and clutches

Jim:

You obviously haven't been on the modelling scene for a while!

No, I don't hook the battery directly to my auto battery. Here's what I use (it's typical): [www.hobbyking.com]

This item is quite sophisticated, you can select from an almost infinite number of charging rates and its charging profile can be changed to conform to the needs of 4 types of battery chemistries. Also, it's a balancing charger and senses the individual cells as it charges to keep them at the same power level.

Noise has become an issue for modellers because of increasing population densities; the electric motor is the quietest available for modellers and when combined with powerful lithium-ion batteries it makes for a no-brainer. Additionally, the potential for fires is reduced when they are used intelligently, no flammable fuels being spilled on dry grass, etc.

BTW regarding power output of the batteries, one of the ratings we watch for is the "C" value which is a multiple of the amp-hour rating and tells us the max amperage drain we can safely take out of the battery. In my case I use a "3S2P" configuration which is 6 cells arranged in 3 series/2 parallel config and yields a nominal voltage of 11.1 volts and has a 800 mah rating. One of my batteries has a "C" rating of 50C (burst power, short time periods); that means you can draw 50x800 or 40 amps from it for a short period without damaging it. Most LiPo batteries on the modelling scene have at least a 20C value. Most of the better modellers use a watt meter and/or carefully calculate the needs of the motor to select the appropriate battery size; the result is that the battery never approaches its output limits when correctly matched.

Currently there are many forms of RC aircraft that are popular. I would say that most are using substantially the entire range of power levels for flight. There's lots of power changes for aerobatics and the guys just love to do touch-and-gos. In my case I have a motorglider with a folding prop; This means I can launch, climb, and loiter--until a thermal comes along and I can convert to pure soaring. Or, if things cease to support pure soaring I can "bring her home" without damage or concern.

Of all the lithium-ion apps I believe the RC modelling has benefitted the most from them.

Bill]]> Bill Hinote SteamStuff Wed, 16 May 2012 11:58:48 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20213#msg-20213 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20213#msg-20213
Oh?? You guys blast your battery charging it with no current control off a car battery? No wonder they blow up and catch fire.
That little habit of lithium batteries does not exactly inspire what comes under the heading of confidence. The lithium-air battery is far worse, it can dump it's charge much faster than the lithium-ion polymer. One afternoon quietly working in my office at the Rocket Factory, I watched the roof of our lithium battery lab right outside my window take wings. Let's just say that I am prejudiced after seeing and hearing that one and a few others too. Try putting some dry ice in that can and keep the battery cool when you charge it like that. This heat problem with high capacity Lithium batteries is going to get worse if the deluded motorists keep believing the press releases and buying the things. Just watch.

Do tell me something, since the last model airplane I had was powered by a Dyna-Jet, until we got run off the field for making too much noise.
Why the electric motor when the correct power source for more or less constant speed loads like airplanes, boats and generators is properly the IC engine??
Varying loads demand a power source that has grand torque starting up from rest without the crutches of gearboxes and clutches, the EC or steam engine.
Thanks; but I stick with Harry and steam.

Jim]]> Jim Crank SteamStuff Wed, 16 May 2012 10:57:19 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20212#msg-20212 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20212#msg-20212
> Now I see the Post Office will not ship anything
> by air with a lithium battery in it, PERIOD. They
> aren't stupid, they already had cargo hold fires
> and that is scary.

The RC modellers love the lithium-ion battery; when combined with a high-efficiency brushless motor they're a dream come true--and rapid field charging off your car battery is another plus.

However.............the smart guys keep a coffee can or similar and put the battery in it during charging. Fires aren't uncommon, and once she gets going you need to have something like this for protection. Personally, I use a coffee can and only charge mine in the middle of a concrete garage floor.

Bill]]> Bill Hinote SteamStuff Wed, 16 May 2012 10:08:11 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20211#msg-20211 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20211#msg-20211
If you think that GM and that foolish VOLT are in trouble, consider the nice guy I know who just opened a MClaren and Fisker agency in Palo Alto. Those recent Fiskers committing suttee big time are something else.
Love the frantic spin control coming out of the Fisker front office, "It was the motor", oh sure it was. Let's see, the guy just took delivery, drove his new toy home, parked it in his garage with the car turned off and not connected to the charger either. So might one ask just where the energy to burn his Fisker, another car and his garage to the ground come from?? It ain't a ticked off Tinker Bell, it was that lithium battery that did the number on his place. The press around here had a field day with this one. Seems some just have to learn the hard way, lithium burns beautifully and lithium batteries can and do catch fire all on their own.
Now I see the Post Office will not ship anything by air with a lithium battery in it, PERIOD. They aren't stupid, they already had cargo hold fires and that is scary.
Then there's Tesla, who leave their customers high and dry because their lithium batteries refuse to charge when left for a short time discharged. Think $33K for a new battery as five around here found out. Howls of righteous outrage and in the press too. The Tesla backpedaling would do Lance Armstrong proud.
Or now one reads that the ugly Toyota Prius is not getting anything like the guaranteed 100K miles out of their lithium batteries, big time hush-hush on this one.
I do love watching the delusions of the environmental nitwits in Government trying to overpower good engineering and the laws of physics and thermodynamics by mandates. Then there comes that supreme liberal fairy tale of all time, 54 mpg in passenger cars and light trucks. Delusions on gossamer wings.

Andy, Fear not, there still is good old single malt Scotch. Been depending on it for years, Mother's Milk.
Jim]]> Jim Crank SteamStuff Wed, 16 May 2012 04:15:48 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20210#msg-20210 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20210#msg-20210 steamerandy SteamStuff Tue, 15 May 2012 21:48:25 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20209#msg-20209 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20209#msg-20209 But they didn’t band it outright, they licensed it. I have to use my blasting license, same one I buy my dynamite with for commercial excavation.
Rolly]]> Rolly SteamStuff Tue, 15 May 2012 10:47:37 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20208#msg-20208 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20208#msg-20208 We have our own de ionizing unit and just recently had to enlarge it. There is so much running of engines going on now that we are running out of back doors to run them. Just had to rebuild our small dyno as it needed new bearings this has run the S-1 and the WHE engines. In the near future there is plans to install three dyno rooms so as to run three engines at a time. And I remember when Jim rightfuly naged about geting these engines on a dyno. At the present there is more testing than building. I dearly want to go to production with these engines but being sloppy and having a recall would be imbarasing such as the Volt.
Harry]]> HLS SteamStuff Tue, 15 May 2012 09:16:39 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20207#msg-20207 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20207#msg-20207 Chemistry is not my expertise, I get my water in 55 gal drum’s from a non commercial private source.
Rolly]]> Rolly SteamStuff Tue, 15 May 2012 07:57:57 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20206#msg-20206 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20206#msg-20206 sidrug SteamStuff Tue, 15 May 2012 07:25:52 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20205#msg-20205 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20205#msg-20205
The naptha launch engines were magnificent Victorian pieces, I would just love to get my hands on one for a week. They did work just fine and wouldn't it be interesting to go on a cruise in one of the big yachts in their catalog with two 75 hp naptha engines. I have the catalogs and drool over them on occasion.

If you really dig into them and read the material that Frank Ofeldt wrote, something very clever becomes clear. If your steamboat ran on ordinary water steam, you needed a license or a licensed engineer on board when it was operated. Nothing was said he personally had to run it, just be on board. Like my firing on the EPPLETON HALL, there was a person with a steam engineers license on board, usually drunk by noon up in the wheel house or sleeping on deck.

With the naptha launch engine, steam is in need of a license; but boiling gasoline is not steam and does not require any licensed engineer on board. Ofeldt found a very clever way around the laws and sold thousands of his engines for many years as a result. The usual Government befuddled thinking, same as some of their stuff now.
I constantly recall what Bill Lear Jr. said one day: "The bigger the government bureaucracy, the easier it is to screw em".

Jim]]> Jim Crank SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 21:57:36 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20204#msg-20204 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20204#msg-20204

- Bart]]> barts SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 20:44:20 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20203#msg-20203 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20203#msg-20203
i left that out, no point going all through the problems of alternate fluids when the subject was that Minto fraud.

The advantage of the low heat of vaporization caught everyone with his pants down, me too. Sure, neat on the surface; but while that is low, so is the specific heat the enthalpy. The result is the feed pump has to pump three to five times as much to get the same energy content as water.
Also lots of them are dandy solvents so there goes your lubrication too.

Most definitely disintegrate at temperature, between 500°F and 650°F so that hurts like mad too. Freon and fluorinated hydrocarbons, depending on which one, break down into free chlorine or fluorine and even hydrofluoric acid which goes after everything, including your skin. Nasty stuff.
No, with the FC-75 I used in the boat, there was no control problem, that I know how to work with. One other is the curve of the TS diagram means that you include a huge regenerative heat exchanger on the expander exhaust, the biggest thing in the whole system.

The final fluid that held the largest potential was toluene. Inflammable and according to the environmental twits, a bad carcinogen. I suppose if you inhaled the vapor or drank the stuff you could get into trouble, like asbestos, stuff it up your nose it might cause problems, Treat it with respect and you would be OK.
Right, plain old water and stop fooling yourself.

Jim]]> Jim Crank SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 12:31:55 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20202#msg-20202 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20202#msg-20202
1. The Freon Minto used had a low heat of vaporization--a supposed advantage, but the enthalpy in the vapor state was so low that massive volumes of Freon had to be pumped and the FW pump ate up huge percentages of the power available.

2. Freon isn't terribly stable at higher temps and if a certain threshold level is reached (can't remember the temp number right now) the Freon breaks down and forms phosgene gas--one of the favorites used by the Germans in World War One. Control issues with a monotube generator virtually assured this event.

There's still no substitute for good 'ol aitch-two-ohh!!


Bill]]> Bill Hinote SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 10:59:29 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20201#msg-20201 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20201#msg-20201
Good observation. In a di system, indeed things that weren't passivated will become so and the water will become ionized. But as long as the system doesn't start precipitating things it can still be clean and functional. I suppose a routine water change wouldn't be a bad maintenance practice. Probably could be a pretty long interval after a couple cycles.

keith]]> kdc2 SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 10:57:00 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20200#msg-20200 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20200#msg-20200
What happened to the Minto fantasy is this, from everything I can find on it in the archive.
Wallace Minto was another one who though that he could overturn the laws of thermodynamics by ego, publicity and vivid imagination. The Minto VW bus had a 20 hp Stanley engine running on Freon, not the brightest idea then either. He got Nissan or Toyota all worked up over it until the hard facts of life and engineering truths shot it down.
Seems that the Freon he chose had a rather low boiling point and during the summer months in Florida, the only place he could run his bus was in an air conditioned warehouse.
Outside the ambient temperature boiled his tank of Freon off and that was that. The bus was probably junked and the Stanley engine, I trust, wound up where it belonged, under a Stanley steam car.

From what is available to research, the gerotor and the hundred of contraptions that are similar, internal friction, heat losses of high magnitude and leaking killed them for any steam expander use. They make good oil pumps and that is all.
Felix Wankel wrote a marvelous book that showed the immense depth of his investigations in his pursuit of a successful rotary engine design, unfortunately long out of print. However, in it he shows every possible rotary engine concept you can ever think of and then some and briefly describes what is wrong with the more promising ones and then why he abandoned it. I study it constantly when the urge to design a rotary steam engine strikes.
They all have the same basic faults in one way or another: Circumferential and axial leakage of major amounts, very harmful surface to volume ratios that are bad sources of heat leakage, thermal case distortion, the need for very high operating speeds, seal problems that never quit and usually the need for lots of internal lubrication.
Try as one might, it is just too hard to replace the good old crankshaft, connecting rod and piston with anything that is even an equal match.

Jim]]> Jim Crank SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 10:36:25 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20199#msg-20199 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,11289,20199#msg-20199 -------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all,
>
> Has anyone experimented with gerotors as
> expanders? I searched all over www and found the
> only company that actually worked with it in the
> pass is Starrotor and their data show a terrible
> expansion efficiency. Starrotor has drop the plan
> to build an engine, instead concentrating on
> building custom compressors.
>
> [www.rexresearch.com]
>
> Regards
> Max.

I just came across this thread as I was Googling on Wallace Minto's freon engine. It seems he also used the idea of a gerotor and actually came up with a working car, although I'm still trying to find out whatever happened to that.

[www.freepatentsonline.com]]]> SimonDM SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 02:16:09 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20198#msg-20198 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20198#msg-20198 SSsssteamer SteamStuff Mon, 14 May 2012 00:49:05 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20197#msg-20197 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20197#msg-20197 jjtjr SteamStuff Sun, 13 May 2012 05:19:07 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20196#msg-20196 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20196#msg-20196
- Bart]]> barts SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 23:52:11 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20195#msg-20195 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20195#msg-20195 Thanks for that information, always something to learn for me. The older I get the more I realize how little I know, especially newer stuff. My question as to "almost" is that the cylone will recycle its water thousands of times, basicallly a closed loop system like a refridgerater, I wonder how long it would take over thousands of hours of operation with the same recycled water would there be any iron added to the boiler water? Something I know nothing about. Thanks for the info on passivatation. The crankshaft should indeed be very durable.
Best, George]]> George-n SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 15:34:35 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20194#msg-20194 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20194#msg-20194 Water normally has enough oxygen to make stainless great for a marine environment.
Rolly]]> Rolly SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 14:30:39 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20193#msg-20193 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20193#msg-20193 We use a lot of Swageloc fittings however when doing a lot of assembly and disassbly the fittings have to be replaced , that's us. They work well when not in a flame zone where they will fail It is better to use special wrenches as not to distort the nut and use an antiseize compond as this will help not to gaul the fitting.
Harry]]> HLS SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 13:07:26 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20192#msg-20192 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20192#msg-20192 Harry]]> HLS SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 13:00:41 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20191#msg-20191 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20191#msg-20191 kdc2 SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 11:47:30 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20190#msg-20190 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20190#msg-20190 That is one tough stainless! A 17%Chrome 4%Nickel with manganese,silicon cobalt, tantalum added. It ca have up to 210K psi tensile strength and 185K psi yield strength. However it is about 75%FE:iron, does the iron not get precipitated into the hot water over time?
George]]> George-n SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 11:41:02 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20189#msg-20189 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14675,20189#msg-20189 sidrug SteamStuff Fri, 11 May 2012 09:02:43 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20188#msg-20188 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20188#msg-20188
> Harry said that he is using Swadge-lock fittings
> and having no problems. On their
> [url=http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_products_
> home.aspx?SEARCH_CHARACTERISTIC=/search/3%2f8+in./
> id-4294967122/type-1&item=5385d89e-3b0f-4899-937c-
> 5504f4ef6077]site[/url] they are speced to handel
> vibration. Expensive though. You can find them on
> ebay sometimes,

I'm a huge Swagelok fan; I used them on my steam auto project in the early '70's and I'm using them on many of my current projects.

There's so much to choose from on ebay IMO it doesn't make sense to use anything else. If the cost is higher than flare fittings (and it often isn't if you're patient on ebay) it's still superior to anything else. One of the most interesting aspects of Swagelok is that you can disconnect the fitting and then when you reconnect just follow the instructions and it's as good as the first time. I don't think there's anything like it!!

Bill]]> Bill Hinote SteamStuff Thu, 10 May 2012 18:56:56 -0500 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20187#msg-20187 http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,20173,20187#msg-20187 -------------------------------------------------------
> Lok-Tight will not improve on your seal of the
> compression fittings. What is worse is that later
> on Lok-Tight will lock the compression nut from
> being moved when needed.

Too right - I used copper grease on the back of the flare which prevents the flare nut from locking on the flare and twisting the pipe when you try to unscrew the nut. I recall reading an article where the repair to a feedwater heater was described and the photo showed that the flare nut had jammed and the pipe was screwed up into a spiral:(

Mike]]> Mike Clark SteamStuff Thu, 10 May 2012 17:57:44 -0500